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ChefJoeR

ChefJoeR

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O.K., I know a lot of us look at brewing as a craft, art form, obsession, etc... We have our favorite pubs, microbreweries, brewpubs that we frequent. I also read about plenty of people on here that wish to open nanobreweries, microbreweries and brewpubs.

My question is this: does it matter to you if your favorite nanobrewery, microbrewery or brewpub brews all-grain, partial or extract?

Let's face it, those of us that own or plan to own a business such as this, or any business for that matter, are primarily doing it for one reason - MONEY!! We have to look at the most economical way to produce a product and sell it for profit. This is just something that keeps brewing in the back of my head (no pun intended, I swear). What are your thoughts?
 
I would think that from a business perspective, it would definitely be cheaper to brew all grain than it would to brew extract or partial. If you want to cut costs on fermentables, it would make more sense to me to incorporate some adjuncts.
 
I think AG would be best. Especially when you figure that you'll be making 100s of gallons of a certain beer. When you get the set-up for your location or if you partner with a local brewery then I think AG would be the easier and more efficient option.
 
You would lose money doing partial mash brewing. I can see no benefit at all.

There is almost no advantage to brewing extract on a commercial scale.

You'd save the one-time cost of a mash/lauter tun. And you'd save the back breaking work and time of cleaning up and disposing of spent grain.

You would pay 2-3 times as much for extract over grain and give up the flexibility of formulating your recipies and could lose control over the flavor/color from batch to batch. You would also need so sort of special vessel or mechanism to steep and remove specialty grains.

It might work for a gimmicky addition to a restaurant selling a $6-7 house pint, but I don't think it would be a money maker.

Mead or cider might be a better route for someone who wants to brew commercially without dealing with grain.
 
The only thing I can think of is a smaller micro whose AG batch is off a bit and needs to add some extract to bring up the OG. I know places like Briess make a 55gal (640lb) LME barrel and their web page implies it is just for that purpose - to bring up the OG in the event something else is off.

I bet you could run the numbers and find that the labor cost and inital equipment cost is offset in a few years by going AG over extract.

To to answer OP's question - I want it to taste good and since extract starts as grain in the field just like AG, no I don't care.
 
When I drink a beer I care about what it tastes like (and a good label affects my decision in a way)
What's in it doesn't make a huge difference, and you no one has to know you use extract unless you give brewery tours or something
 
I think most people would agree that AG is ideal. But I think if you're just getting started and are on a shoestring budget, extract has some benefits. As ACbrewer pointed out, the extra cost on equipment for brewing AG would be offset eventually, but that doesn't matter if eventually never comes. The main benefits I could see would be much less invested time, much less initial start up costs, much smaller set up to produce the same amount of beer, and energy savings. Also, it wouldn't be hard to scale up production as demand for your product rises.
 
I've been to one brewpub that brewed extract, and one other that I think did but wouldn't really say. Both sucked. Now I'm certainly not saying that extract beers are inherently bad. I do believe though that a brewpub that chooses to go extract is probably making that choice based on lower start-up costs, probably does not have a brewer on hand who really should be a professional (because they would have told the finance gurus to go all-grain to save money in the long run), and likely the place will not survive. Commercially, AG offers the best profit margins over the long term.

One more point. While money is obviously VERY important, the quality of the beer will factor into how much money the place brings in. There are proper ways to cut costs without compromising quality, and then there are ways to cut costs that will impact the product. A good business person knows the difference.
 
airborneguy said:
i've been to one brewpub that brewed extract, and one other that i think did but wouldn't really say. Both sucked. Now i'm certainly not saying that extract beers are inherently bad. I do believe though that a brewpub that chooses to go extract is probably making that choice based on lower start-up costs, probably does not have a brewer on hand who really should be a professional (because they would have told the finance gurus to go all-grain to save money in the long run), and likely the place will not survive. Commercially, ag offers the best profit margins over the long term.

One more point. While money is obviously very important, the quality of the beer will factor into how much money the place brings in. There are proper ways to cut costs without compromising quality, and then there are ways to cut costs that will impact the product. A good business person knows the difference.
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+1
 
You are assuming that I meant an inferior product because of the use of extract. It looks like this is turning into another one of those debates on quality of extract vs AG brews
 
I didn't assume anything about your post at all. My post was not even a response to yours. The OP's question was pretty specific in looking for the differences between the methods commercially. Furthermore, I specifically addressed commercial applications and was very clear that I did not believe extract beers are inherently bad.
 
blackbird said:
You are assuming that I meant an inferior product because of the use of extract. It looks like this is turning into another one of those debates on quality of extract vs AG brews
Click to expand...

Not assuming, just pulling from personal experience. Brewpubs who are shortcutting the setup cost, generally shortcut everything resulting in a lower quality product.
 
Kelly's around here I think does some extract. Their beers taste like they don't care about the product, and when I complained about a bad beer once the waitress chastised me for complaining about the beer that *she* made. I can only imagine that's extract.

Yea. Place has a killer atmosphere and location, so I guess that they don't care about their beer too much.
 
Airborneguy said:
Now I'm certainly not saying that extract beers are inherently bad.
blackbird said:
You are assuming that I meant an inferior product because of the use of extract.
Click to expand...

you see where your statement isn't true?

no one thinks that extract beers are "inferior" (atleast no one who isn't a newb who just switched to AG ["omg! my beers are so awesome now"]) it's just that it usually doesn't make sense for a brewpub. except for one that is looking to save costs up front (could be other reasons, just not USUALLY). for homebrewers there are plenty of reasons to brew extracts. ease, time, space, lots of things. point is that most people aren't trying to bash extract brewers.:tank:
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Airborneguy, my apologies if I misunderstood your post. After reading it and rereading it yet again, I still get the impression that you meant to imply that a brewpub who is brewing with extract is cutting costs and quality will suffer. By saying "extract beers aren't inherently bad" just doesn't translate into extract beers can be equally as good as the best all grain brews.
I just did a quick search of the forums and there have been several posts on this exact subject. There are at least several places who are using extract due to space limitations or due to prohibitive costs of disposing spent grain.
Here is one such post:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/do-professional-breweries-ever-use-extract-55894/index3.html
As to the OP's question, I could care less if the brewpub uses extract as long as the beer is good. If you want to open a brewpub using extract only, I think it's completely doable and you can do it without worrying about "compromising quality".
 
i would question their motives for using extract (if they even told me they used it), but i would certainly drink the beers (if they were good beers). if the reason was due to space, etc., what ever, then i would understand. as long as the creative process was there then i could see me drinking it. if it was just kind of a gimmick where the pub wanted to mix up some syrup and water to make beer, then no. i think it depends on you're outlook on brewing, whether or not it will work
 
Rycov, I could care less if people are bashing extract brewers. Please don't assume from my low number of posts that I am a "newb" on a rant to argue that my beers are equal with AG. I made my original post in order to provide the OP with a different perspective from the other responses. It IS doable. This whole concept has been done successfuly already. People sitting around saying that it can't be done with much of a margin for profit or implying that the product will not be on par with a traditional brewery is misleading. I'll be sure not to intervene next time I see responses to a poster's question being answered so one-sidedly. Also, I don't particularly appreciate you saying my statement was untrue. He in no way acknowledged that the extract brewery's product could be equal in quality and went on to talk about the importance of not cutting costs and the resulting decrease in quality. Doesn't sound like he thought too favorably about extract brewing now does it?
 
blackbird said:
Airborneguy, my apologies if I misunderstood your post. After reading it and rereading it yet again, I still get the impression that you meant to imply that a brewpub who is brewing with extract is cutting costs and quality will suffer. By saying "extract beers aren't inherently bad" just doesn't translate into extract beers can be equally as good as the best all grain brews.
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You seem to be taking this personally, and I don't see why. The post above this one in response to rycov was obviously personal.

I've been to almost 100 brewpubs and/or breweries. My wife and I make it a priority whenever we travel to hit as many as possible. I've been to 2 that use extract (as I said, one made it clear, one wouldn't say but it was obvious because they had no equipment and said they brewed in their kitchen.) Oddly enough, both are in Ithaca, NY.

Now what I was getting at is that COMMERCIALLY, extract brewing is not the most popular, profit friendly way to brew beer for sale. My statements to this effect are not directed at the homebrewing of extract beers in the slightest. Commercial brewing and homebrewing have NOTHING in common. No one called you a newbie, no one even knew whether you brewed extract or AG!

The facts speak for themselves: only a very, very small percentage of brewpubs/breweries brew with extract. I am sure there are some out there that chose to do it for good reasons and produce fine beer. But if you can't recognize that there are people brewing beer commercially only because they felt it could make them more money than buying from a distributor, and chose extract because it is easy and equipment-lite, then you don't know much about how some business people think.

Not all people who are brewing beer commercially are actually brewers. Unfortunately, a few times I've found that out after it was too late.
 
I agree with pretty much everything you just posted. I think where we differ is that I feel it is more viable commercially than you do. Fair enough. I don't particularly care. It just felt like, after my initial post outlining some of the potential benefits, you had quality concerns (which is understandable). I wasn't factoring in quality, as I didn't see the relevence. I just assumed that the product in question would have been of sufficient quality. It frustrated me because it seemed like my entire post was disregarded because of these quality issues. I responded impolitely, and I apologize. Rycov just came along and pissed me off by claiming my statement wasn't true. Seemed pretty blatantly rude to me.
As a side note, pretty much all my extract beers have been inferior to my AG brews. It's not an entirely fair comparison as I never did full boils while making extract and there were a few other small differences between processes. I'm a bit of a penny pincher and now stick to mainly AG. I enjoy the process and don't mind the extra time invested. Commercially though, for a small, start-up brewery I think the initial savings in equipment as well as the time savings help even the field. Keep in mind, I am refering to a small, pico or nano size brewery. Another thing to consider is any small scale, all grain system employed will eventually have to be replaced by a larger system if the business is successful and demand grows. The savings in grain in that initial time period may not be justified.
 
Good beer = Good beer. As a consumer I wouldn't care how it was done, as long as it is safe to drink and is good.

As a small brewer going public starting with extract might be the best idea with start up cost in consideration. Long term goals would assume I would transition to AG beers - potentially phasing out the extract.
 
Airborneguy said:
I've been to almost 100 brewpubs and/or breweries. My wife and I make it a priority whenever we travel to hit as many as possible. I've been to 2 that use extract (as I said, one made it clear, one wouldn't say but it was obvious because they had no equipment and said they brewed in their kitchen.) Oddly enough, both are in Ithaca, NY.
Click to expand...

Was the latter Bandwagon? The brewed on a Brew-Magic in their kitchen. I just looked it up to make sure I had my facts straight but they apparently have recently moved to a larger system.
 
Yes. Brew magic is all-grain right? I guess I was wrong about the extract there. I write notes on my Google Earth overlay plotting all my brewpub visits. The note I have for them is: Red Ale had so much diacytl they must be adding it as an ingredient!
 
Wow! O.K. I have been away from this post for some time and didn't think I would start up a posting war, but the responses are actually pretty good. Let's clarify things here for a second. I have no intention of ever producing beer commercially using just extract. In my belief, if you are going to spend the money for equipment, personnel, training, supplies, etc... it makes no sense (monetarily and ethically) to mix water and syrup and call it your product. Now as far a brewpub setting goes, if you were in a small pub, 60 seats, that also has 50+ other beers on it's list, I think it's fine. I just wanted to get others opinions on that. Yes, space for the equipment (mills, mash/lauter tuns, grain storage, etc...) can be at a premium, and with a place that small, it sometimes doesn't make sense to spend the money on a system until you have a growing clientele. Here in Georgia, it is 20k just to get a brewpub license. Now you also have all your other licensing (business, liquor, brewing, etc...) that come out to about 10-15k. Now add that to the cost of a used 3bbl system installed and you get about 200k. If you can work towards that goal over time, then starting off with extract, maybe moving to partial and then to AG makes sense, at least to me. Also working off of a 20 gal to 1bbl system from Psychobrew, Sabco, or the host of small manufactures to eventually get the system that you want, it just seems to make sense business wise. These are things that go through my head when I write my plan for my gastro-brewpub and where I need to allocate the proper start-up funds. Do I want to spend 200K on top of my necessary start-up funds now, or raise the capital to make this purchase down the line? These are just my thoughts. Now that you read my "book", let's have more fun!
 
Airborneguy said:
Yes. Brew magic is all-grain right? I guess I was wrong about the extract there. I write notes on my Google Earth overlay plotting all my brewpub visits. The note I have for them is: Red Ale had so much diacytl they must be adding it as an ingredient!
Click to expand...

One of them was the pizza place right? I have been in Bandwagon several times and right after they opened they showed me their all grain system and I think it was a brewmagic. I never saw them use it but I spoke to the owners and the head brewer from another very well known local brewery and they both told me that they were doing all grain batches and the "other" brewery was assisting them with their recipes. The beer was not very good when they opened but it has gotten much better since the other place starting helping with information. I just tried the raspberry jalapeno and oatmeal stout last weekend and really liked them both.
 
rycov said:
Airborneguy said:
Now I'm certainly not saying that extract beers are inherently bad.
you see where your statement isn't true?

no one thinks that extract beers are "inferior" (atleast no one who isn't a newb who just switched to AG
Click to expand...

I do. All things being equal, an extract beer is not going to surpass an AG beer, will always cost more, and extract has limited fermentability which matters if you are shooting for 90% attenuation. Pretty good reasons right there.
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ChefJoeR said:
Now as far a brewpub setting goes, if you were in a small pub, 60 seats, that also has 50+ other beers on it's list, I think it's fine.
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Why would a place already selling 50+ beers spend $20k for a license to brew a couple at a reduced profit margin? Makes no sense to me at all. I've never been a "brewpub" that sold anywhere near 50+ outside beers. Most sell no outside beer, and the most I've ever seen was at Trinity in Colorado Springs, which was around 20 and really surprised me.
 
nyer said:
One of them was the pizza place right? I have been in Bandwagon several times and right after they opened they showed me their all grain system and I think it was a brewmagic. I never saw them use it but I spoke to the owners and the head brewer from another very well known local brewery and they both told me that they were doing all grain batches and the "other" brewery was assisting them with their recipes. The beer was not very good when they opened but it has gotten much better since the other place starting helping with information. I just tried the raspberry jalapeno and oatmeal stout last weekend and really liked them both.
Click to expand...


Yes, the pizza place was the one that stated they were using extract. Is Ithaca the brewery that's helping bandwagon? If so, I might make another trip. Ithaca makes the only IPA I've ever truly liked. Flower Power is one of my favorite beers of all time, especially fresh from the brewery. They put out some amazing beers there.
 
Airborneguy said:
Yes, the pizza place was the one that stated they were using extract. Is Ithaca the brewery that's helping bandwagon? If so, I might make another trip. Ithaca makes the only IPA I've ever truly liked. Flower Power is one of my favorite beers of all time, especially fresh from the brewery. They put out some amazing beers there.
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It was Ithaca. Flower Power is my favorite beer ever, the problem is it's also my wifes favorite so whenever we buy it she drinks it on me:cross: Ithaca is doing a major expansion so you might want to wait until they finish before you come back this way.
 
rexbanner said:
I do. All things being equal, an extract beer is not going to surpass an AG beer, will always cost more, and extract has limited fermentability which matters if you are shooting for 90% attenuation. Pretty good reasons right there.
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for sure. if i were going to start a brewery of any kind i would do AG. thats what i do now (mostly). i was just saying that most peoples reason for saying AG would be better for a brewery, is not because extract sucks. So i was kinda sticking up for Airborneguy, because i didn't think he was saying that (although i should probably mind my business):mug:
 
Airborneguy said:
Why would a place already selling 50+ beers spend $20k for a license to brew a couple at a reduced profit margin? Makes no sense to me at all. I've never been a "brewpub" that sold anywhere near 50+ outside beers. Most sell no outside beer, and the most I've ever seen was at Trinity in Colorado Springs, which was around 20 and really surprised me.
Click to expand...

That's the price of the license whether you brew 1 gallon or 10000 gallons. The beer that will be brewed will be in small batches and offer guests unique brews to supplement the list and food pairings.

By the way I like your last post on this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f5/brewpub-legality-question-272621/
 
rycov said:
for sure. if i were going to start a brewery of any kind i would do AG. thats what i do now (mostly). i was just saying that most peoples reason for saying AG would be better for a brewery, is not because extract sucks. So i was kinda sticking up for Airborneguy, because i didn't think he was saying that (although i should probably mind my business):mug:
Click to expand...

I hear ya. I remember reading that quite a few breweries brew extract. Nothing wrong with extract, look no further than Brewing Classic Styles. When it comes down to it, I just am too much of a penny-pincher and I already have the equipment for AG, so why not? I'm 24, I can spare time but not money.
 
This seems like a strange conversation for a brewing forum. Who here thinks extract brewing is cheaper than AG? How do you think that compares when you escalate things to a commercial capacity? What do you think the margins are on running a brewpub?

Unless you are selling crack with your beer, the margins on running a brewpub are slim. With brewpubs you are hard pressed to survive, even without the extra cost of extract over grain for every glass you produce. I brew extract with grain and partial mash but there is no point in those methods if you're trying to run a business.
 
I'm not saying I'm against the idea, but the idea of trying to sell microbrew using extract will likely kill any profit you could make with a brewpup, and it therefore simply makes no sense.

That said, why would you try? If you enjoy making beer that much, invest in the equipment. ...and save the ongoing per glass cost of purchasing extract.
 
Pascal said:
Unless you are selling crack with your beer, the margins on running a brewpub are slim. With brewpubs you are hard pressed to survive, even without the extra cost of extract over grain for every glass you produce. I brew extract with grain and partial mash but there is no point in those methods if you're trying to run a business.
Click to expand...

Actually, the profit margin on a pint of brew-pub beer is extremely high. I have read that it can be around 75 cents on the dollar.
 

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