Countertop Brutus 20

Yakima 728
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For those of you that used the copper ring method to ground the elements (technically, to ground the kettle), what is the advantage to using the copper ring versus just attaching the ground to the element base?
 
I have been a big fan of this system since I first saw Jkarp's picture. I have also been helping a friend decide how to start brewing (see this thread).

He has finally decided to go with a modified Brutus 20/Jkarp system. I have called it the Twent-E2 because it is a Brutus 20 two-vessel system, that is all E-lectric, and it is two-tier like Jkarp's design.

Anyway, here it is. If anyone sees a flaw or anything, please let me know because Jeremy said he is going to start buying stuff this week!

Here is a Sketchup model of how the stand and console will look:
Twent-E2.png


It is a two-tier painted-steel frame from 1 inch square tubing. The two 8 gallon (32 qt) pots are tamale pots found here.
8532_tamale_pot.jpg


He will use a grain bag and the provided steamer tray for a FB.

Here is the purchase order, $934.32 all told including supplies for a start-up brewery:
purchase_order3.bmp


and an assembly guide:
Parts_Chart_Twent-E2.bmp


....................continued
 
I like!

I have a (perhaps unfounded) fear of pumping from the bottom of the MLT though. What would a stuck or slow runoff do in this configuration? How would you correct? I had the same concern with Lonnie's original design too...
 
It is a legitimate concern. However, I am a single tier guy, so I pump from my mash every time I brew. I really never have stuck sparges, and especially with BIAB and a thin mash, I really doubt compacted grain bed will be a problem. If a stuck sparge does occur (heaven forbid :mug:) the solution is to take the hose off the pump inlet and drain into a bucket or blow into the hose to restore flow. Basically, you want to run the pump slowly and avoid sticking the sparge :D That is way easier.
 
My knee jerk thoughts: Do you have to limit yourself to one 120v element, or can you use 240v? The 8 gal pots strike me as an odd choice for size. With one element, you will not get full 5 gal batches, so the 8 gal pots might be a bit overkill. It will help you on the MLT so you can do bigger beers, but you will be boiling down to about 3.7 or 4 gallons in an 8 gal BK. If you think you may add another element in the future to the BK, the 8 gallon MLT will then limit you to somewhat smaller beers in an 8 gal MLT. I built my system with an 8 gal BK and a 10 gal MLT and am discovering the limits of my system for 5-5.5 gal batches.

I just saw you want to use a 1500w element, this will limit you even more to smaller batches. If you are going to spend close to a grand on this system, I would want it to be able to do bigger batches, but that is just me.
 
HarkinBanks said:
My knee jerk thoughts: Do you have to limit yourself to one 120v element, or can you use 240v? The 8 gal pots strike me as an odd choice for size. With one element, you will not get full 5 gal batches, so the 8 gal pots might be a bit overkill. It will help you on the MLT so you can do bigger beers, but you will be boiling down to about 3.7 or 4 gallons in an 8 gal BK. If you think you may add another element in the future to the BK, the 8 gallon MLT will then limit you to somewhat smaller beers in an 8 gal MLT. I built my system with an 8 gal BK and a 10 gal MLT and am discovering the limits of my system for 5-5.5 gal batches.

I just saw you want to use a 1500w element, this will limit you even more to smaller batches. If you are going to spend close to a grand on this system, I would want it to be able to do bigger batches, but that is just me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I realized I had the 1500W element in there. That should be a 2000W element.

He does need it be be a single element. My house, where he will brew a lot is super old and we would need to run humorously long extension cords to use two circuits.

I was hoping to shoot for 4 gallon finished volume batches. I choose the pots because they have a built in False bottom shelf, and are an excellent deal. Why get a smaller pot when a larger one is the same price? More room is rarely a bad thing in my experience.

It is a bit pricey at around $750 for the system but only slightly more than the original and I think the changes warrant the cost. The stirrer, and the switches are pretty much the only cost difference. Take those out and the rig comes down almost $200, but would not be as convenient to operate, IMO.

Also, these prices are all stock prices, so we may be able to find some deals and lower the cost. I think we all know how that goes.

IMO, a grand is just what it costs to be brewing AG. I know MANY people disagree, but I just hate cobbled together equipment and don't enjoy using it. This is a great design (thanks Jkarp and Lonni) and comes in at a very reasonable price tag. Now, most of my builds are 100% stainless, but for the sake of budgeting, this is aluminum, brass, and copper (with a very few SS pieces). Add my standard SS addiction and the build becomes pretty pricey (about 1200 for the same build).

I didn't see what the boil times were for a 5 gallon starting volume from 170º with a 200W element. Can someone post that or direct me to a post where it is mentioned? I am hoping for around 30 minutes or less.
 
jkarp said:
I like!

I have a (perhaps unfounded) fear of pumping from the bottom of the MLT though. What would a stuck or slow runoff do in this configuration? How would you correct? I had the same concern with Lonnie's original design too...
Click to expand...

I haven't had any issues what so ever with pumping from the bottom of my 20's MLT. I did a wit this weekend with 50% wheat and a hand full of rice hulls, recirculated at full tilt like a champ.
 
Boerderij_Kabouter said:
I didn't see what the boil times were for a 5 gallon starting volume from 170º with a 200W element. Can someone post that or direct me to a post where it is mentioned? I am hoping for around 30 minutes or less.
Click to expand...

170 to 212 for 5 gal should be in the 20 minute range; quite likely less if the kettle is moderately insulated.
 
Boerderij_Kabouter said:
Yeah, I realized I had the 1500W element in there. That should be a 2000W element.

He does need it be be a single element. My house, where he will brew a lot is super old and we would need to run humorously long extension cords to use two circuits.

I was hoping to shoot for 4 gallon finished volume batches. I choose the pots because they have a built in False bottom shelf, and are an excellent deal. Why get a smaller pot when a larger one is the same price? More room is rarely a bad thing in my experience.

It is a bit pricey at around $750 for the system but only slightly more than the original and I think the changes warrant the cost. The stirrer, and the switches are pretty much the only cost difference. Take those out and the rig comes down almost $200, but would not be as convenient to operate, IMO.

Also, these prices are all stock prices, so we may be able to find some deals and lower the cost. I think we all know how that goes.

IMO, a grand is just what it costs to be brewing AG. I know MANY people disagree, but I just hate cobbled together equipment and don't enjoy using it. This is a great design (thanks Jkarp and Lonni) and comes in at a very reasonable price tag. Now, most of my builds are 100% stainless, but for the sake of budgeting, this is aluminum, brass, and copper (with a very few SS pieces). Add my standard SS addiction and the build becomes pretty pricey (about 1200 for the same build).

I didn't see what the boil times were for a 5 gallon starting volume from 170º with a 200W element. Can someone post that or direct me to a post where it is mentioned? I am hoping for around 30 minutes or less.
Click to expand...

Ok, the 2000w element will be fine for you then, and you are aware you will only be able to finish with around 4 gallons or less into the fermenter. For what it is worth, I put together my all SS build with NSF kettles and a shirron plate chiller for around $885, so it can be done on a "relative" budget if you shop around.

I will defer to JK or Pol on the electric boil times, but I know you will be fine with one element from JK's experience.
 
jkarp, i see some black on the outside of your control box. Is that the heatsink? I was thinking about installing a little computer fan and leaving it all inside has anyone done this or is it best to let it hang out of the box?
 
kjones said:
jkarp, i see some black on the outside of your control box. Is that the heatsink? I was thinking about installing a little computer fan and leaving it all inside has anyone done this or is it best to let it hang out of the box?
Click to expand...

It is indeed the heatsink. The SSR very definitely generates heat that must be managed, but a fan should work fine if you want to keep things internal.
 
jkarp said:
kjones said:
jkarp, i see some black on the outside of your control box. Is that the heatsink? I was thinking about installing a little computer fan and leaving it all inside has anyone done this or is it best to let it hang out of the box?
Click to expand...

It is indeed the heatsink. The SSR very definitely generates heat that must be managed, but a fan should work fine if you want to keep things internal.
Click to expand...

I wish I had thought of that. Maybe I'll get a bigger box and redo mine. That heat sink sticking out is the one thing I really don't like about my system. It looks a bit clunky for my taste.
 
I have been testing my PID with a water boil. I live a 5500 ft and water boils a 201 here. I have another thermometer and it reads 201* but the PID reads 244*. I have changed the polarity and it reads 27 at boiling. Is there something I'm missing about this? Is there a calibration? I have the 4" K type from Auber:(
I can set the PSb to -43 but thats a big difference!
 
DrinknBuddy said:
I have been testing my PID with a water boil. I live a 5500 ft and water boils a 201 here. I have another thermometer and it reads 201* but the PID reads 244*. I have changed the polarity and it reads 27 at boiling. Is there something I'm missing about this? Is there a calibration? I have the 4" K type from Auber:(
Click to expand...

Is the thermocouple connected directly to the PID or did you use a panel mount?
 
Wow I just realized I was supposed to use the same wire as the thermo! I didn't do that I'll cut off and re-wire dang!
 
Exactly. And polarity must be honored through the panel mount. The actual connectors in the panel mount are made of chromel and alumel just like the thermocouple wire.
 
ok, i was just looking at the picture on page 5, and i saw where your heatsink doesn't have the big piece on the end like mine does. mine has 6 fins and then a big part on the end opposite where you mount the ssr, it looks like a slot to mount it inside of a panel or something.
 
Be very careful to make sure your wires from the thermocouple into the panel mount connector do not touch at all. If they do, you will get wonky readings.
 
kjones said:
ok, i was just looking at the picture on page 5, and i saw where your heatsink doesn't have the big piece on the end like mine does. mine has 6 fins and then a big part on the end opposite where you mount the ssr, it looks like a slot to mount it inside of a panel or something.
Click to expand...

I hacked off that big end piece on mine.
 
Here's an additional pic to help clarify the wiring. Assuming you use similar switch / outlet combos to the ones I did, you must break off the tabs (on both switches) as the instructions state to allow the switch to control the outlet. Otherwise, the outlet is always live.

This view is of the kettle switch / outlet. The pump switch / outlet is wired exactly the same, except a simple wire jumper replaces the SSR connection. You'll also notice that each of the hot, neutral and ground terminals on the pump switch / outlet has two wires. One set come in from the AC cord, and the other set jumps across to the kettle switch / outlet.

Hope this helps those of you building your own Countertop Brutus 20!

brutus20-16.jpg
 
Well just wanted to chime in on my first counter top brew day. Basically a clone to the original but didn't put a 3/4 fitting in the MLT top. Just drilled a hole to shove the 3/8 line through. Worked great.

I also have the center inlet March pump. Easier to plumb, I think, with 1/2 nipple and adapter. Still had to prime it by switching it on and off a few times though.

Brewed the Amarillo IPA...simple recipe but put the Brutus through it's paces.

All I have to say is.....I really Love this setup! I'm one happy camper...err.. brewer.
Sweeeeeet setup and design jkarp!
Thanks for everything. You are a true beer engineer!:mug:
 
I had my first Brutus 20 brew day last week also. It was the most relaxing brew day ever - even though I felt this driving need to lift someting hot or adjust a burner. I'll get past that soon.

I do have some fine tuning questions - in your mash tun, does the return hose sort of lay on top of the mash or point straight down into it? Anything to diffuse the flow into the grain? Could you estimate the volume/min that you recirc?
 
My return hose lies just below my average grain bed, nothing to diffuse it. I keep a 1-2" sparge water buffer on the grain bed and crank it full blast now. I experimented with different rates and "sparge" temps (from 170-185) and have found that the time is the more important factor. If you can hit 170 degrees in 30 minutes, do it full blast. With my larger boil volumes (avg. 7 gal) it takes me more than 30 minutes to hit 170. I open up the kettle return slowly at first to make sure I don't have a stuck sparge, once I confirm this, I crank it.
 
Gibbnal said:
I do have some fine tuning questions - in your mash tun, does the return hose sort of lay on top of the mash or point straight down into it? Anything to diffuse the flow into the grain? Could you estimate the volume/min that you recirc?
Click to expand...

Mine sticks into the grist on big beers, but I don't worry about it. If you really want it to float, it wouldn't be hard to make a float out of some sort of foam and stick the end of the hose through it.

Recirc rate for me varies on the situation. On something like a wheat or stout where there's lots of wheat or oats in the grist, I'll start slow to avoid the mash sticking. As the temp rises to mashout I can pick up the pace. I've been doing a number of bitters lately that required a really thick mash. In these cases, I pumped up as much boiling water as possible at the end of the mash to thin it out prior to beginning recirc.

Ideally, you want to flow as fast as you can without getting the mash stuck and go for at least 30 minutes, or until the mash hits 170, whichever takes longer.
 
So when you finally drain everything to the kettle, do you not have a deep hole in the grains under the return?

I saw that and was concerned that it lead to a less than homogenous rinse of the grain bed. I am thinking that I started out with too high a flow rate, causing the hole to form before the really fine layer formed on top of the grist.

I know what's coming next...No, I can't tell you if I hit my target gravity in spite of the above concerns...my hydrometer was munched by something heavy in the storage closet. I have a calibrated refractometer ready for the next batch.
 
I really don't think it matters Gibbnal. The recirc, given enough time, is going to cause the wort gravity to reach equilibrium throughout the system.
 
Whilst brewing a high-gravity beer (2 Below clone) on my CB20 last night I started pondering the efficiency limits of the Brutus 20 concept. Spent some time playing with a spreadsheet this morning and came up with a couple interesting graphs (below).

As expected, no-sparge (which is what the CB20 is) has reduced efficiency as the grist increases. It was a bit surprising to see that no-sparge scales relatively well to batch size however. For a relatively big beer - say 1.080 - a 3.5 gal batch will require 11 lbs of grain and give 70.5% efficiency. a 10.5 gal batch at 1.080 would need 34 lbs of grain and still give 68.3% efficiency.

The biggest variable by far in no-sparge brewing is the grain absorption rate. In the 3.5 gal example above, reducing grain absorption from .15 gal/lb to .10 gal/lb boosts efficiency to 80%. You obviously want to get as much wort out of the grain as possible. Reaching a good, hot mashout temp and using rice hulls for "sticky" mashes are the real secrets to no-sparge efficiency.

So, what's the ultimate limit of my setup? Well, physically, I can't cram more than 13 lbs in my 5 gal MLT with a sane mash thickness. 13 lbs given the parameters above should give me a 1.090 wort with 67% efficiency. Not too shabby for a countertop rig!


MATHS:

total points = 36 * lbs grist
pre-boil vol = batch size + boil evap + dead loss + (grain absorb * lbs grist)
points per gal = total points / pre-boil vol
points lost = points per gal * (dead loss + (grain absorb * lbs grist))

Est OG = (total points - points lost) / batch size
Efficiency = (total points - points lost) / total points

cb20eff1.jpg


cb20eff2.jpg


cb20eff3.jpg
 
Nice stuff JK, I just went through a similar exercise with my system and have a spreadsheet where the only variables are Lbs of grain used and my pre-boil volume. Everything else calculates automatically, total water needed, strike water, efficiency, max pre-boil gravity, etc. Once you know your constants, you can really dial in this system for very consistent results. I love that.

One thing I would mention that is very important is boiloff rate. I have two elements on my system and can get a 1.2-1.375 gallon/hr. boil-off rate depending on how I throttle my system and get higher gravities.

Also, if you calculate a 90 min boil for some of those bigger beers on your system, you can up your 1.090 probably over 1.100.
 

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