Electrian dad says GCFI is pointless?

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mhermetz

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My dad has been very intrigued with my brewing endevour ever since I started. Yesterday I said we could have a nice father son construction... Electric brewing!

I have a new 10g Blichmann on the way for my new BK. I may not have it for my next brew but I figure I can at least get my E-HLT going.

I picked up 2- 3000w 240v heater for my HLT and BK. I have a question though.

A single 3000v heater should be more than enough for my HLT but what about for my BK? You think it will be a little under powered for boiling 6.5 gallons?

Father, the electrician, seems to think it will take a long time to boil. In either case he also seems to think using a GCFI is pointless. Now I know you all stress using it for safety but there is a reason I'm torn here. My dad has over 20 years experience as an electrician and 10+ as Southern Ontario's chief electrical SAFETY inspector. I asked him why it's pointless and he just said it's not necessary. Maybe someone else here can shed some light on it? maybe USA vs CAN thing?

This normally wouldn't be an issue as I would just spring for the GCFI just to be safe.... but my dad is very strict in his plans. If he doesn't feel the need for it, "why waste the money". I told him it wasn't much and I'd just pay for it..... meh... I trust him with my life, I just want to understand why.

I also got electricuted pretty effing bad when I was an apprentice about 3 years ago. I was wiring up some flourescent light fixtures in a hockey arena. I was told by my boss that he shut off power to that section so I could work... Well some other dumb ass switched it back on...and I got zapped big. I forget what current AC or DC, because I've changed careers but it was the kind were it makes you stick. I was lucky enough to some how bang the wires out of my hand. I think i must of some how grounded myself too... I'm actually not entirely sure how I was able to free myself. Needless to say I was lucky because that whole section had a lot of power running through it... it was powering close to 55 -4 bulb lamps!

So that's why I'm still cautious.... but i also think the reason he feels it's pointless is because we're not working with enough power. It would hurt like a Mother! but I think he feels it wouldn't do bodily harm...

Anyway this got way off topic... so 2 questions:

1. Would 3000w be enough for a BK?
2. Should I slap my dad and get the GCFI?
 
In theory, as long as the stuff is properly grounded he is assuming that should do it. However, you will be dealing with liquid. I think a lot of things would have to happen at the same time, like an element ruptures, you are stirring with a metal spoon and you are grounded......... Something along those lines. You offer enough resistance that you wouldn't trip a breaker, but a GFP would notice the difference. That is my understanding anyhow.
 
1. 3000W is a bit low. It will work but will not be as fast as it could be. Go bigger, it is only a couple bucks.

2. I don't exactly know the science behind 220VAC, but I assume it works the same as 120VAC because the operate at the same frequency. Basically, AC current is extremely dangerous when in contact with damp or wet skin. The water changes the resistance of your body and the frequency of the current become very close to your hearts frequency and stops it from beating. Combine that with the paralysis you have already experienced and you get death via electrocution. I am sure I have screwed up the explanation somewhere and someone will correct me, but that is the jist of it.

In a properly designed and grounded system, a GFCI should be unnecessary (i.e., never be tripped). Do you feel 100% confident every single strand of wire is in the right place, you have not forgotten any grounds, no grounds have failed, etc. etc. etc.? If not, spend $20 and turn a potentially very serious situation into a nasty shock you get over in a few seconds.

Just my opinion, but screwing around with water and electricity isn't something to mess with.
 
Your dad rules.
The kind of guy who has a steak in one hand and a beer in the other.
I bet he never wore a helmet to ride a bike.

I never met him, but I already like him.:mug:
 
note to self ...ditch the metal spoon! Christ how did i even over look that.

Well I'm pretty confident my dad will probably wire this whole thing safely.... if not more safely then most people on here; if that's possible. That's probably why he thinks it pointless. however, In that same manner of thinking, you'd think he'd throw it in there anyway.

So what if I just wait and put both 3000w elements in the BK? then buy a 4500w for the HLT?
 
In a properly designed and grounded system, a GFCI should be unnecessary

Disagree. There are many situations where the operator completes a circuit from the hot 240VAC to earth gnd. This circuit THROUGH the operator will NOT trip the 30A breaker. Likely, the operator will be well past the "can't let go" threshold in which the AC current is great enough to cause involuntary muscle contractions, and possibly respiratory paralysis.

We could come up with a bunch of ways for the operator to come in contact with the 240VAC without the this short also contacting the earth gnd directly (which would open the breaker). Many of these do require a single failure mode, like a loose wire somewhere. Note, though, that with so much conductive fluid around, there will be a spill, and that is tantamount to throwing a wad of loose, bare wires everywhere.

There are also an infinite number of ways for shorts to happen that we could never imagine. Put the GFCI in there.
 
I agree with your dad. I was an electrician for a while and I installed many wet location appliances and heaters and other high voltage devices with no GFCI. There is no code for gfci in most hard wired applications.

When building my rig I called my old boss. He went to college for EE and is also a master electrician. Owns his own electrical company. I asked him about GFCI's and if he had any. He asked why. I told him and he said the same thing. You don't need that. They are expensive and there is no need. He said: "do you have a gfci on your stove at home?" I said no. You boil water on it and don't you! He gave me a few other more technical reasons too.

Anyway. My plan was to ditch the GFCI but this board keeps stressing it so much. I eventually caved to the homebrewtalk mafia and bought a $75 GFCI cord.
 
My father is a car mechanic. Since my car is always in good shape, and since I'm an excellent driver, I don't bother with seatbelts or airbags.
 
I would NEVER invest any amount of money into a GCFI. Those things are worthless lead riddle crap.


Now a GFCI I'd totally buy.
 
In a properly designed and grounded system, a GFCI should be unnecessary

Yah and while this is true the operant word "should" ought not to go unnoticed.

Things happen. They just do. Circuits fail, wires slip away from their fastening points, screws vibrate loose, insulation breaks or wears, mineral rich water splashes and spills, and people make mistakes. Things go wrong.

The GFI is just one more way to try to minimize the harms that can occur when things go wrong.

That guy Murphy wasn't just whistling dixi.
 
Sure seems relevant! good contribution. I applaud you:rolleyes:


Oh come on! You know what he was saying. :)

This thread could be the death of me! I soooo want it to be true that the GFCI is not necessary, but as was said before it has been drummed into my sub-conscious.

I suppose I'd better get one when i electrify my rig. I just wish I knew that it was really necessary! :)
 
Didn't these things start as an 'outdoors' receptacle since there was an increased chance of dampness/wetness causing an issue?
 
humm.... seems to be more debate here then I thought. I pretty much believed this to be a unanimous decision.

My take so far in this debate is that most use them to ensure that if any mistakes do occur from loose wires, water spillage....etc etc. then they will be safe. I have a problem with this statement.... feel free to call me out on it...

If you can't wire your system safely / correctly enough to rule out ANY such failures due to loose wires, spillage etc etc....then maybe you shouldn't be venturing into wiring your own system?

I simply don't see how a correctly wired system would subcomb to a spillage electricution? those wires should all be covered up safely.
 
Your dad is an electrician and thinks GFCIs are unnecessary? Yikes.

Saying that if everything is properly grounded is enough is not correct. Electricity does not follow the path of least resistance. It follows ANY and EVERY path it can find. If you happen to be one of those paths, you'd better hope that it's only a few milliamps going through you, because it doesn't take much more than that to kill you if it goes across your heart. Slap your dad and get the GFCI.

BTW when you got hit years ago as an apprentice, it sounds as if you got hit by 277 volts. That doesn't tickle, and you feel it all day. Ouch.
 
Lest my message above be misconstrued, the word "should" does carry meaning and was inserted intentionally. Anyone who has build things knows you can't control every aspect of a project and something unexpected will happen. In our case it may be a splash at just the wrong angle 10 years from now and a wire nut just came loose...

Spend the small amount on an interrupter and stay safe. The seat belt analogy was perfect. Thinking you are so good that you are safe is Hubris against Murphy's law.
 
If it wasn't for my 2 year old son, I wouldn't have felt the imminent need to get one. I know where the live connections are and their exposure is limited. However, my son already knows what a screw stick is and how to use it. One day should he mimic the old man and work on the brewery or pop open the control panel and get into something and I happened to forget to unplug it, well it would be bad. Is it a pretty remote possibility? absolutely. Should he have to pay for a lapse in standard protocol on my part, no way. So I put in the gfci.
 
Your dad is an electrician and thinks GFCIs are unnecessary? Yikes.

Saying that if everything is properly grounded is enough is not correct. Electricity does not follow the path of least resistance. It follows ANY and EVERY path it can find. If you happen to be one of those paths, you'd better hope that it's only a few milliamps going through you, because it doesn't take much more than that to kill you if it goes across your heart. Slap your dad and get the GFCI.

BTW when you got hit years ago as an apprentice, it sounds as if you got hit by 277 volts. That doesn't tickle, and you feel it all day. Ouch.

Yeah I was shaking for a while... although that was probably adrenaline. I sure did feel funny.

I'm wondering though... Maybe my dad doesn't think we need one because he has another cost effective idea? it's possible... this is coming from a man who built an electric car from stratch using an old Chevette .
 
He said he was working on florescent. Those have high voltage ballasts in them. I have been hit by a neutral from a fluorescent. Does not feel good. They are a whole other beast to deal with. You don't really want to work on them when they are live. It is not like getting hit with normal 120v from a socket.

I agree with coderage. I know where my wires are. I know they are wired correctly. I would feel plenty safe without it. In the end though I put a GFCI in because ultimately my roomate and girlfriend and other people may be screwing around near my stuff.

I have said this before. If you do not know electricity, do not play with it. Call a certified electrician and have them wire something up for you. Yes we do step by step how to builds on this site but most of the people doing it. Know what they are doing. Electricity will kill you. Make sure you know what you are doing. GFCI or not.
 
... this is coming from a man who built an electric car from stratch using an old Chevette .

I want to meet your dad. That man sounds cool. I told my girlfriend the other day. After my rig is built, I want to start researching an electric car build.

1980's volkswagon GTI all electric plug in.
 
I want to meet your dad. That man sounds cool. I told my girlfriend the other day. After my rig is built, I want to start researching an electric car build.

1980's volkswagon GTI all electric plug in.

I was pretty much the coolest kid in high school when I would drive it to school for my Auto class days.

the thing only had a range of about 100km. It also weighed a ton! the back seat and truck were filled with batteries. Regular car batteries i might add....we didnt have any of that fancy Lithium Ion **** around 1998.

Top speed was 60km...but it sure got there fast! the Torque on motors are nuts.
 
If your dad is anything like my dad, he may have just left some info out to mess with your head. Maybe there is something you dont know in the mix. If you are powering this to a recepticle branched from a bathroom or any garage outlet with more than a single outlet it is already protected with GFCI. Maybe there is already a GFCI breaker in the panel, or you are powering from a spa like sub panel that is already protected? Or maybe he just doenst like you very much?:D
 
Maybe he bought one of those dinky little Gerber life insurance policies when you were a baby, and he's looking to score a quick $10,000.
 
I have a problem with this statement.... feel free to call me out on it...

If you can't wire your system safely / correctly enough to rule out ANY such failures due to loose wires, spillage etc etc....then maybe you shouldn't be venturing into wiring your own system?

Because we're dealing with large amounts of heat, and large amounts of liquid. All it takes is forgetting to fill a mash tun/hlt, and your heating unit shorts out.

You don't have to wire it incorrectly for something to go wrong.
 
Because we're dealing with large amounts of heat, and large amounts of liquid. All it takes is forgetting to fill a mash tun/hlt, and your heating unit shorts out.

You don't have to wire it incorrectly for something to go wrong.

you mean turning it on before water is in it?....humm...seems highly unlikely... but I see your point. Pretty sure that wouldn't kill me though...it would just horribly damage my element.

Anyway, I see all your points and I definitly wouldn't want a novice to come to these boards, dream up a big e-rig, stumble across this debate and decide he doesn't need one. That could end horribly.

Just found the whole thing odd seeing as I believe my dad to be some electric guru.

but back on track....6000w good for a BK right?
 
I agree with coderage. I know where my wires are. I know they are wired correctly. I would feel plenty safe without it. In the end though I put a GFCI in because ultimately my roomate and girlfriend and other people may be screwing around near my stuff.

And all it takes is a tiny nick in a ground wire and some corrosion for someone with a little water nearby to become the ground path of every amp in the system. Why even take that chance with yourself? Why do people need to be macho and say "well, it's only because I have a kid nearby or a roomate"? Not only will it protect you IF something unforeseen happens in the system, but it will also warn you of said faults before you are a victim.

The cost is negligible for the peace of mind.

You're not talking about a 60W light bulb. You're talking about 30+ amps of continuous peak current, which is PLENTY to kill you.

Oh, and I have seen enough misconceptions of electricity in this thread to warn a few of you to not do your own electrical work...
 
The electrical part intrigues me...but needless or not, I still plan on using one.
I'd rather not need it and have it than need it and not have it.


But as for the wattage...not sure I caught the volume you were trying to boil, but from what I've read (I think...been reading a lot recently) 3500w will boil a 5G batch (like 7G) in like 30 minutes from sparge temps but for 10G (13G) you need around 5500w

I know 1500w will heat 9G cold tap water for an HLT to 170 in about 1/1.5 hours
 
I simply don't see how a correctly wired system would subcomb to a spillage electricution? those wires should all be covered up safely.

So every connection and wire is sealed in an impervious, heat and liquid resistant shielding. And no corrosion, or manufacturing defect, or accident at the brew site could ever possibly happen.

If you're willing to be your life and that of those around you on that premise... go right ahead and do so...

You apparently know the risks and are willing to take that bet.

Good luck to you sir.
 
So every connection and wire is sealed in an impervious, heat and liquid resistant shielding. And no corrosion, or manufacturing defect, or accident at the brew site could ever possibly happen.

If you're willing to be your life and that of those around you on that premise... go right ahead and do so...

You apparently know the risks and are willing to take that bet.

Good luck to you sir.

Do have electrical expertise? What is your job? I not looking for a pissing contest. I just wonder. All of my line voltage is in a sealed nema box. The only connections that could be exposed to water is my control panel. It only has 12v dc very low amperage draw. The 12v power supply 2.5 amps is in the sealed nema box. My elements are covered with drilled out plumbing caps and potted with jbweld.

It has nothing to do with being macho. It has everything to do with knowledge of the system I am working on.

Edit: the wires going to the elements are SO cable. So they are rated for outdoor use. Getting a nick in one of those would be hard. I have seen heavy equipment run over those on job sites.
 
and the frequency of the current become very close to your hearts frequency and stops it from beating.

AC electrocution causes convulsive muscle contractions and this is the violent shake of the electric chair you may have seen and can stress the heart into failure. This is true. It is the cyclical violent contraction that causes the damage, though, and the strength of this contraction is dependent on the power in the load flowing through the body. For 110v AC (we don't have true 120V) a 30 amp load will be roughly 3300W of power. At 220v this same 3300W of power is really just 15A. So while people say "amps is what kills ya" or "high voltage kills ya", it is the load (read watts of power) that kills ya.

For DC current this is slightly different. There is no peak-to-peak cycling of the voltage and therefore DC current will not cause the convulsive electrocution. You'll just be frozen with a permanent muscle contraction. Also, while you may survive a shock from DC current, it also cause electrolysis of the fluids in your body which will release toxic compounds and you may die several hours later from blood poisoning.



In the end, there are many old adages or saying that apply here and all should be equally heeded. If you're the kind of person that doesn't wear a seatbelt or a helmet on your motorcycle, by all means, you're welcome to do as you please.

But, if you have kids, pets, spouses, roomates that could possibly be affected, God forbid something happens to them that could have been prevented by a small dose of "cautious engineering"...

It's not scare tactics, it's reality.
 
It has nothing to do with being macho. It has everything to do with knowledge of the system I am working on.

This.


As far as I know everything close to the kettle will be completely sealed within a water proof box. From there we are running cable approx 15 to the panel... more than enough distance from the kettle to warrant any kind of spillage concern.

It kind of like boiling water in the kitchen and being afraid you'll splash someone in the next room over. Short of throwing it at him, it's impossible.
 
AC electrocution causes convulsive muscle contractions and this is the violent shake of the electric chair you may have seen and can stress the heart into failure. This is true. It is the cyclical violent contraction that causes the damage, though, and the strength of this contraction is dependent on the power in the load flowing through the body. For 110v AC (we don't have true 120V) a 30 amp load will be roughly 3300W of power. At 220v this same 3300W of power is really just 15A. So while people say "amps is what kills ya" or "high voltage kills ya", it is the load (read watts of power) that kills ya.

Ahhh... I knew it was something like that but couldn't remember the specifics. It is 6 years now since I ran the numbers and learned the theory.

Your points are good. There is no good argument against putting in the interrupt, so why wouldn't you?
 
Do have electrical expertise? What is your job? I not looking for a pissing contest. I just wonder. All of my line voltage is in a sealed nema box. The only connections that could be exposed to water is my control panel. It only has 12v dc very low amperage draw. The 12v power supply 2.5 amps is in the sealed nema box. My elements are covered with drilled out plumbing caps and potted with jbweld.

As I said, if you wish to take chances on your design being impervious to any element of failure and take the responsibility on your shoulders, go right ahead. Nobody on here is going to stop you.

But the advice you seem to be giving is advice I would never give a single person. "Skip the tiny cost of peace of mind and protection against failure because there is no way anything can go wrong".

I'm not going to get into a pissing match about internet expertise. I could say I run the electrical engineering division of NASA and it wouldn't matter on the internet.

In the end, you're going to save what, $15 or even $30 by foregoing GFCI after spending hundreds, if not thousands on your brew equipment and setup?

Tell me that makes sense.
 
As I said, if you wish to take chances on your design being impervious to any element of failure and take the responsibility on your shoulders, go right ahead. Nobody on here is going to stop you.

But the advice you seem to be giving is advice I would never give a single person. "Skip the tiny cost of peace of mind and protection against failure because there is no way anything can go wrong".

I'm not going to get into a pissing match about internet expertise. I could say I run the electrical engineering division of NASA and it wouldn't matter on the internet.

In the end, you're going to save what, $15 or even $30 by foregoing GFCI after spending hundreds, if not thousands on your brew equipment and setup?

Tell me that makes sense.

If that were the case we would not be having this conversation. GFCI breaker for my panel. 30amp is $89.

Also I never gave any advice. I just said I agree with others statements. I also stated that I have a GFCI circuit on my system.
 
This.


As far as I know everything close to the kettle will be completely sealed within a water proof box. From there we are running cable approx 15 to the panel... more than enough distance from the kettle to warrant any kind of spillage concern.

It kind of like boiling water in the kitchen and being afraid you'll splash someone in the next room over. Short of throwing it at him, it's impossible.

So nothing within the range of the kettle has the potential of failing? Corroded connection to the element and the shielding of element connection is also heat and water proof (boiling water, mind you)?
 
It's not scare tactics, it's reality.

Reminded me of Edger Allen Poe's "Angel of the Odd". As I recall it was about people dying in all fashion of 'strange' ways. A long time ago a fireman told me that professional fire fighting was THE most dangerous line of work. Volunteers had a much lower mortality rate because they had more fear.
 
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I get that. I just know first hand from jobs I worked on that there are not GFCI in the likely places you would think.

Commercial kitchens, boiler rooms, snow melt systems, and few others I have seen around here. The ideas are sound. Be Safe. The delivery is like putting a hockey uniform on to play tennis. It is just not always needed.
 
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