Anyone tried Grape Juice and S-04?

I've experimented with a few variables on Ed's Apfelwein with limited success. It's way to dry for my liking. I actually have some 10 month old on tap right now. Now, I have 3.5 gallons of Grape Juice, 1 Gallon of apple juice and 1.75lbs of dextrose. I want to stop this fermentation around 1.008 to keep some of the grape flavor and some sweetness. After reading the cider experiments thread, I believe I can stop the fermentation by racking and crash cooling my pasteurized juice. Has anyone used only or mostly grape juice and or anyone tried to stop fermentation in this way? Apparently Kevin got this to work using US-04 and pasteurized juice.

I'm sure it will work. I'm no wine maker, but I've heard that concord grapes make terrible wine.

Yeah, I've heard the same thing, but this is no wine. Just juice, dextrose, and 04. And I want to kill the fermentation before it gets dry.

Here is a couple ideas for making sweet apfelwein:
1)After fermentation is finished add sorbate and sulfite to stabilize then back-sweeten
2)Add Lactose (unfermentable sugar used in sweet stouts)
3)Add artificial sweetener like Splenda.

These all can produce consistent and reliable results. Crash cooling is harder to do consistently and it can result in renewed fermentation once the wine warms.

As for using grape juice in an apfelwein recipe. Grape juice has a much stronger flavor. Nearly every drinkable Concord wine I have tasted is very sweet. You will probably have to back-sweeten heavily if you want to try it.

However Yooperbrew has a grape juice wine recipe posted that is claimed to be very good. Look it up under wine recipes.

Craig

My main concern is to not let it ferment down too far. Being really dry is why I don't really like apfelwein to begin with. I would like to be able to not have to add things to kill the yeast. I read the thread about apfelwein experiments and the OP said he could stop fermentaion of US-04 by racking and cold crashing. I was wondering if anyone other than him had ever tried this. I know that concord wines are no good, I've had them. But, this isn't wine. No added acids, enzymes, oak aging and everything else the winemakers use.

Ok, I see what youre going for. Slightly sweet and carbonated this could be a pretty refreshing drink. If you don't want it to dry out either use a sugar that wont ferment as well. Maybe add some malt extract? Dont know how that would taste, but it would keep it from getting so dry. Other than that, you will have to ferment out and backsweeten. Stopping fermentation is damn near impossible. If you keg you should be completely fine with cold crashing and racking though.

I was planning on kegging this, but once I get this recipe tweaked a little bit it would be nice to bottle some. I do not want to let this finish down below around 1.008. I can always back sweeten but it will have less flavor and be much drier. Concord wine is know for not being very good; however, concord grape juice is delicious. The sticky thread guy said he was able to stop fermentation using pasteurized juice and S-04. Then racked and crash cooled. This is my plan, I just don't know if it will work or not.

BWRIGHT said:

Yeah, I've heard the same thing, but this is no wine. Just juice, dextrose, and 04. And I want to kill the fermentation before it gets dry.

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wine is fermented grape juice

I'm aware of the definiton of wine. And I'm quite sure that I don't like it. That's why I'm trying to make something that doesn't taste like wine. I'm trying to come up with a "fermented grape juice" that doesn't taste like wine. "Beer" is barley, water, hops, and yeast, but luckily they can be made to taste quite different.

Aside from that one guy who said he's done it, I've never heard of anyone sucessfully stopping fermentation long term (meaning no popping corks down the road). Sure, chilling it will cause the yeast to go dormant. But if a bottle warms up again, the risk of a bottle bomb or popping cork is too great for most of us to chance it.

Do you want to stay away from chemicals? The only way I know of to ensure no explosions is to allow fermentation to finish, and then stabilize with campden and sorbate, and then sweeten to taste.

Well, I'm not afraid of the chemicals but if its possible to not use them, I think that is preferred. If I can get the yeast to go dormant by crash cooling and then rack to a keg, won't they stay dormant? I'm new to the idea of stopping fermentation. If I was to stop fermentaion with chemicals, is it necessary for fermentation to be finished. My ONLY goal here is to create an "apfelwein" like drink that is not as dry. Therefore preserving some of the grape taste. I don't like wine. I love grape juice. Happy medium would be nice. I'm thinking 1.006-1.008?

BWRIGHT said:

My main concern is to not let it ferment down too far. Being really dry is why I don't really like apfelwein to begin with. I would like to be able to not have to add things to kill the yeast. I read the thread about apfelwein experiments and the OP said he could stop fermentaion of US-04 by racking and cold crashing. I was wondering if anyone other than him had ever tried this. I know that concord wines are no good, I've had them. But, this isn't wine. No added acids, enzymes, oak aging and everything else the winemakers use.

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I wanted the same result as you describe; a not so dry, sweeter version of apfelwein. What I came up with was:

4 gallons of apple juice
1 gallon of water with 2.5# of Light DME
1 Packet Nottingham yeast

At 1.012 I crash cooled this to stop fermentation since it had the "appleyness" I wanted. It's a pretty good hard cider, but I think I'll let the next one drop a bit lower in gravity...maybe to 1.005-008. As it was the cider is just a bit too sweet. It's great for a pint or two, but after that it just gets to tasting like an apple Jolly Rancher !

BWRIGHT said:

Well, I'm not afraid of the chemicals but if its possible to not use them, I think that is preferred. If I can get the yeast to go dormant by crash cooling and then rack to a keg, won't they stay dormant? I'm new to the idea of stopping fermentation. If I was to stop fermentaion with chemicals, is it necessary for fermentation to be finished. My ONLY goal here is to create an "apfelwein" like drink that is not as dry. Therefore preserving some of the grape taste. I don't like wine. I love grape juice. Happy medium would be nice. I'm thinking 1.006-1.008?

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It would work, as long as you kept the keg chilled. If you took it out, it would probably start fermenting again. That would be ok, unless you bottled some and left it at room temperature.

It's almost impossible to stop an active fermentation, and keep it stopped, without chemicals in a room temperature environment. Chilled, you might be just fine.

So as long as I crash cool it where I want it and then keep it cooled, it should drop the yeast out? Sounds like about 1.007 should be about right. I started at 1.070 so hopefully I'll have a semi-sweet 8.2% "grape cider?" I have no idea what to call this. TwoHeads, why did you DME? I used dextrose. Were you looking to get a little malt flavor from it?

Is it possible to stop an active fermentation WITH the chemicals?

BWRIGHT said:

Is it possible to stop an active fermentation WITH the chemicals?

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Adding sorbate doesn't stop the fermentation but rather stops the yeast from multiplying/budding/whatever. Any viable yeast will still ferment. Other than fermenting to dry and stabilizing, then back sweetening, I'm not sure how you would go about stopping fermentation.

Maybe pasteurization is your answer. That will kill any viable yeast, then you add sulfites and sorbate to stabilize.

This is similar to a apfelwein variation that I have tried. Except I use a larger ratio of apple juice to grape juice:

1/2 gal dark grape juice.
2 cans dark grape juice concentrate
2 lbs dextrose
~4 gallons apple juice (or whatever it takes to fill the 5 gal carboy)
montrachet yeast

The grape juice is just enough to give the finished product a pink color and enough grape flavor to make you think you're drinking a dry white wine of some sort.

I carbonated it and it tasted a lot like a dry sparkling wine. I imagine a sweetened form would taste good too.

Yeast are active within their rated temperature range. Therefore crash cooling below that temperature range makes them go dormant. As long as you maintain the beverage below that temperature range, the yeast will stay dormant and will not eat any more sugar. However, if at any point, you raise the temperature back within range, it is likely the yeast will "wake up" and start eating again.

Likewise, using chemicals can slow the fermentation in different ways, but many times yeast will find a way to continue living albeit much more slowly.

I would suggest fermenting to desired gravity, pasteurizing, and stabilizing as suggested by mmb.

BWRIGHT said:

So as long as I crash cool it where I want it and then keep it cooled, it should drop the yeast out? Sounds like about 1.007 should be about right. I started at 1.070 so hopefully I'll have a semi-sweet 8.2% "grape cider?" I have no idea what to call this. TwoHeads, why did you DME? I used dextrose. Were you looking to get a little malt flavor from it?

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Crash cooling and keeping the wine cold will keep it stable.

What you'll have is a light semi-sweet wine. This will still taste like concord wine.

A more stable way of doing this is to allow it to ferment dry then stabilize with sorbat and sulfite, then back sweeten with sugar or juice. This will produce a result that can be bottled and will remain stable. You also have better control over the FG as you will be adding back the sugar. It might be tricky to get the wine stopped at the right point with crashing as the fermentation can go pretty quick.

Craig

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

I would suggest fermenting to desired gravity, pasteurizing, and stabilizing as suggested by mmb.

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You do not need to pasteurize the wine if you let it complete the ferment. If you stabilize with sorbate and sulfite then you can back-sweeten without renewed fermentation.

If you really insist on stopping the ferment before dry then you may be able to crash cool to halt the ferment, then stabilize to prevent it from restarting in warmer temps.

I think you are making this too difficult. It only takes a couple minutes to add the chemicals to stabilize the wine. It doesn't affect the flavor and will help the long term color and flavor stability. Once this is done you can easily sweeten the wine to taste. Give it a couple more weeks and then bottle.

Craig

I may be over thinking this. Still, if this tastes like concord wine I won't be making it again. I can't speak from experience, but it seems to me that letting the fermentaion complete and then back sweeteing will not taste as good as stopping the fermentaion. CvilleKevin is adamant that he is able to stop US-04 by racking and crash cooling. All I know is, I'd like to make a fermented juice drink that doesn't taste like wine. Apfelwein, to me, tastes like dry white wine. I want something different than that. Grape juice may not have been the best choice. Or maybe white grape juice would be better.

A guy I know makes hard cider pretty much like apfewein, after fermentation he adds potassium sorbate then uses cans of frozen concentrate (he uses apple, you could use grape) to sweeten, He said 1 can per gallon, then force carb.

I think you're going to run into problems with this if you really don't want it to taste like wine. Maybe instead of dextrose use DME so that you have some un-fermentable sugars in there. Fructose, sucrose and dextrose are very easily fermentable by yeast and the ingredients listed will give you a basic country wine.

Maybe you should look into meads, gruit, pyment, and braggots.

all this talk about cold crashing and sorbate and cooled storage...is it all BS? really? I dunno...but I ferment to dry and dose with a lil ascorbic acid and bottle...no other additives and store on a cheesy rack on my kitchen counter. I do admit the longest I've been able to let a bottle age is 3 mos, but still no bottle bombs or cork rockets.