Which All Grain Brewing System should I buy/make

I'm going from a couple years of extract brewing into all grain(finally), and truly know nothing about the equipment. I love to brew and will be doing this for years to come so I want to get it right the first time. I have about $2000 to spend. Any help is much appreciated.
Cheers,
Joe

2k? Dizzam. that's a start!

So, i guess you are wanting a brew stand?

Depends on a few things...

Batch size?
Amount of space you have to brew?
Do you care about bling?
How many fermenters do you need, or are you all set there?

IF I had $2k of funds to spend on this, I'd go with at least one or two large kettles (one for a HLT, the other to boil), burners, build a stand to hold them, keep my current mash tun cooler (70qt so good for even 10 gallon batches) and see where I was at... I would also get either an IC and set it up for whirlpooling, or get a wort chiller that works for where I live. With the stand, if you go single tier, you'll probably want a pump, or two, for moving the wort/water around. If you want to use gravity to move things, then you'll need a multi-level/tier stand... Both options work fine, more personal preference...

Depending on the route you take, $2k might not go very far...

You can buy a lot with $2k, but you could get away with prolly 40 bucks. Some things you might want to consider for your money won't really have anything to do with going all grain. You could also blow the whole two grand on just a couple things. So As Golddiggie said, you have some decision making to do:

Batch size - 5, 10 or more gallons?
Bling Factor - Fancy, shiny stuff or plastic coolers?
Do you want to do lagers?
Do you like your current fermenting ability? Conical Fermenter?
Gas or Electric?
Do you want a welded brew stand?
Maybe you want to consider kegging?
Do you want to build things yourself? (like a brew stand, mash tun, etc)

That said, I do have a couple suggestions. Buy a BIG pot or keggle (15 Gals+), the incremental cost difference is worth the versatility of brewing bigger batches if you choose. Since you have some money to spend, I would go with stainless over aluminum.

It's not absolutely necessary, but I really like having my own grain mill. I buy my grains in bulk and just grind what I need when I'm ready.

Batch size - 10 gallons
Bling - I would prefer stainless
Lagers - Last on my list
Fermenting Ability - ?
Gas or Electric - Gas
Brew Stand - Yes
Kegging - Yes
Build things yourself - Possibly, but I'm not very mechanically inclined

I do have ample space, big garage, driveway, etc.

2K, holy crap I'm not sure where to start. What equipment do you have now from extract brewing?

Don't worry too much about your mechanical inclination. If you can control a drill, your golden.

All I have right now is the brewers best starter kit with about 8 5 gallon fermenters. I use an aluminum 6 gallon pot and gas burner for my boil. I also have a copper wort chiller.

Do you enjoy the DIY aspect of things, and accumulating tools? If you buy used kegs you can make keggles, which make the cost less for the HLT/MT(unless using a cooler)/ a BK, but you'll probably need some minimal new tools to do it for weldless. Or you can go prebuilt kettles from one of the many suppliers and just spend some more $$ to have them do the work, and do it 100% correct the first time.

I personally like that each new project i do is an excuse to buy a new tool so the next time I've got the equipment to do it already. Of course, you end up with a bunch of tools that you may never use again if you didn't enjoy the DIY aspect, and the final product can have some 'lovable quirks' to it since you learned on it.

Based on what you've said so far, I'd focus on a stand first. Then you'll know how much money you have left for the rest. Buying a readymade stand from a brewshop could cost you more than you have.

It would be helpful to browse through this thread to see the realm of possibilities. Then decide what type of stand you want, and if you think building it is possible.

First, if you don't have fermentation control, spend the first bucks on use fridge/freezer and a controller for it.

Now, I'm not going to say it's wrong to jump into a full on brewing system when you go all grain but I'd recommend a manual simple setup first. Start with a nice brew kettle at a capacity that can handle your largest planned batch size. 10gal for 5 gallon batches and 15 gal for 10. Then build a cooler mash tun and go from there. Of course, you'll also need at least one burner also. Brew on this for a while and be conscious of things that frustrate you. Plan a dream system with those things in mind.

I agree with BobbyM on the work into it slowly aspect. I have been brewing for a number of years and just finally got to the fun and inexpensive side of electric brewing this year. There isn't anything wrong with extract brewing either, we get carried away with our fancy systems at times, but thats just a guy thing.

In the 6 years I have been brewing, I don't know that I have spent 2K on by ingredients and equipment together? I'm sure I have, but I didn't go out and spend more than 150.00 at a time. Take your time and work into it. There is no rush and things change daily around here.

Bobby_M said:

First, if you don't have fermentation control, spend the first bucks on used fridge/freezer and a controller for it.

Click to expand...

Oh yah, this is where I was heading with the question about fermenting ability, but I got wrapped up in brew stands and forgot about this. I firmly believe that good fermentation temp control will improve your beer more than going all grain.

I made my first five, ten gallon all grain batches with just just a keggle w/ false bottom. Sparging was interesting, but I was able to make it work via several pots, the kitchen stove and buckets. I have since increased the equipment in my brewery, piece by piece to the point where If I just build a stand/sculpture, I will have everything I need to produce ten gallon batches on it. I can alos just keep doing what I have been doing and I won't need a stand, although I think I am going to build one.

I would build your brewery piece by piece, but have in mind what you eventually want. What I mean by that is if you want a single tier stand with three keggle's dont go and build a cooler MLT. Secure a fermentation chamber that will support the volume of beer you want to produce, and then get a way to keg your beer because bottling sucks. After that its up to you, just dont rush into anything ... brewing is not about your brewery, but the beer you make.

Also, it sounds like someones refund check is not going into their IRA ... shame shame

There are lots of ways to minimize the cash outflow and still end up with a great brew system.
Here is an example:




No brew stand, just 3 kegs with commercial desk legs attached to the top and bottom skirt of Sanke kegs.
Storage is also very easy. Turn them upside down and stack 'em.

Are you brewing inside or outside?

If inside batches of 10-15 gallons then electric might be the best way to go. If garage then gas/propane might give you the best setup for your investment.

Outside/Garage: 3 tier setup made from 3 kegs and one or two march pumps and either immersion or plate chiller.
- HLT can be a keg with a weldless fitting with valve to feed your mash tun. Add sight glass ($200)
- Mash Tun is a keg with false bottom and tubing plumbed from bottom to march pump and back to top of grain bed. Temp gauge. ($350)
- Boil pot is a keg with tubing/valve at the bottom and temp gauge ($150)
- Fermenter - maybe a $600 fermenter from Stout
- Freezerless fridge from Craigslist to hold your fermenter and add a temp controller with heat option from Williams Brewing or other ($100 + $90)
- Chest freezer from Craigslist to hold your beer long term ($40-$100)
- Plate heat exchanger (less than $100)
- 20# tank CO2 ebay/craigslist (less than $100)
- Multi-gauge for your CO2 tank ($60)
- Burners for your vessels ($300)
(just some ideas)

Inside/Electric: similar to above, but now would probably have a more complex HLT that will allow you to recirc from mash tun through coil immersed in HLT to pick up heat and avoid direct electrical element contact with grain. I would probably choose an HLT and fittings from Stout Tanks and if limited by the $2K then use kegs again for the mash tun and boil pot.

If I had more money then I would probably just buy all Stout vessels and then add pumps and gauges and elements (probably runs you $3K) and if I had $5K then I would add automation. Assuming 1/2 bbl system.

First of all.....

Bobby nailed it. I will take his thought and go a step further. Before shooting your whole wad on a sweet system out of the box; consider this.

I have been thinking about making a thread...If I could go back in time..... I'll give you the brief version.

So, if I could go back in time and re-do the brewing career. it would have been...

(Still as an extract brewer mind you)
Buy a pretty basic kit, and choose the option with 1 better bottle. The kit has a few key items that you will use for years. Better bottle, capper, bottling bucket, auto-siphon, bungs, beer thief, hydrometer, etc. Naturally, it includes a few items that you will never touch.
Next, throw away the one-step that came in the stupid kit, and buy PBW and Star-San. I would also toss the useless analog thermometer, and buy a digital.
Next I would build a chiller. I prefer immersion (more so, whirlpool immersion, but that requires a pump).
Then move to full wort boils (which it sounds like you can already do). This requires a minimum of a 7 Gallon kettle, and I really like the SQ 14 burner.
Then fermentation temperature control (chamber, digital controller, ferm-wrap, carboy cap thermowell).
Next would have been yeast health (2000 ml flask, stir plate, oxygenation kit, small investment in yeast nutrients, a book to explain nuances of liquid yeast, and this link - http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html ).
Finally, I would have bought a large carbon filter and the appropriate hose to deliver water to the system. There was an interesting interview on the BN with Lagunitas. They pointed out that we all have access to the same ingredients; same malt, hops, yeast, etc. The biggest variables from brewery to brewery is the brewer and the water. I agree; embrace your water. Carbon filter and let it ride.

Now start to think about all-grain (and with that, get some software to help with recipes/calculations on brew day.) There is not really that much needed.
Buy your own mill (it is the only way to guarantee consistancy) I like the Barley Crusher.
Build your MLT & HLT - I really prefer coolers, but SS vessels that can be directly heated have merit as well - additional burners may be required to do this.
Invest about 5 batches into learning a process. Batch/Fly sparge; whatever. Each have their own benefits. Figure out what you can be most consistent with.

This is a good point to add some toys that make life easier.
Refractometer - a lot less hassle than the hydrometer. I'll plug BobbyM. I didn't buy mine from him, but should have.
pH meter - I don't own one yet, but it is next on the list.
Kegging system - Also do not own one yet, and won't say why, but rhymes with "my wife won't let me".

Now start to think about fitting that gear into a rig. Personally, I love the design of the B3 1550, so I simply built one and inserted the pieces (most of which you would have already had if you followed my flow chart above). All you would have to buy is building materials, a pump, a GFCI, some QD's, and tubing (which you may already have had). Why do i like this design? Small foot print, no ladder required, 1 pump, and built to fly-sparge (which I do).

If you want to ignore the If I could go back in time advice, that is fine, and you can put the 2K straight into an unbelieveable system. Many people will be jealous. However, I really think my outline above will be your best bet to brew the best beer possible. I'd put results ahead of the bling.


Joe

If I were to summarize my thoughts, you don't know what kind of system you should get for $2000 and I guarantee that no one can accurately tell you what kind to buy/build. Spend as little as possible on what you need to make wort and play around at that level. Cooler based MLTs are my recommendation because it works well without having to play chase the temperature for 60 minutes. You don't have to buy pumps and you'll never scorch your grains. You'll never melt your grain bag or rip it (picking on the BIAB guys a bit here).

Do NOT get horny for 3 stainless vessels right out of the gate.

With a decent amount of cabbage (the $2k you mentioned) you can get some essential items, and then decide on the rest...

As already mentioned:
Build a fermentation chamber large enough to hold at least a few fermenters.
Get/make a good sized kettle/keggle to start. Ball valves are critical in my book, since I started using them. Especially in the boil pot/kettle...
Get/make a good sized hot water tank (or HLT) to heat the sparge water.
I would go with a cooler mash tun at least initially. As mentioned, no chance of scorching your gain in one of those. Just size it properly.
You can start off with something as simple as a work bench, with a concrete grill mat on it (to protect the wood top from the propane burner)... Use gravity to move things around initially...

Once you've got the all grain processes nailed, then start replacing hardware as you wish. Or adding more hardware to make the process more streamlined.

I will say, that just adding the propane burner to my setup has shortened my brew day by well over an hour. More like 1-1/2 to 2 hours. I did my last batch from flame-on to yeast pitched in under 5 hours. Before that, I was looking at a minimum of 7 hour sessions (BIAB on the stove)...

I tell you what, I get all googly-eyed when I visit other brewers' garages and sheds and see their fancy stainless 3-vessel automated recirculated all-grain brewstands. But I still love my basic all-grain setup and it can make beer that's every bit as good as theirs. It just takes a little more time and manual effort on brew day.

I have your basic 10-gallon cooler MLT made using the parts and instructions here: (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/cheap-easy-10-gallon-rubbermaid-mlt-conversion-23008/), a five gallon cooler with Kewler Kitz ball valve conversion for an HLT, and for a BK I have an unmodified all-stainless 6.5 gallon brew pot. I boil on a propane turkey fryer and I chill with an IC made from 50 feet of copper refrigerator coil, some tubing, a couple hose clamps and a garden hose barb. For temperature control I have a chest freezer plugged into an analog temperature controller.

I'd say the whole setup ran me about $300-400, all told.

I have a basic 5 gallon set up (just starting all grain really). I have:

-8 gallon aluminum kettle ($30 + $25 for fittings)
-Converted cooler mash tun (Would be $30 if I hadn't already had it + $30 for parts)
-20' immersion wort chiller. I'd build bigger if I could do it again. ($35)
-Tubing for wort transfer, etc. ($5)
-Supplemental heat stick ($30) Not everyone on these forums get on board with the heat stick idea and I am not so sure I would either if I wasn't on such a budget.
-Converted pasta roller grain mill ($15)

So for $200 you could completely replicate my system (which I am more than happy with). Having said that, you have $2000 dollars so you could go far further in equipment than me. But, if someone were to control my brewing funds and say you are never allowed to buy any more equipment for as long as you live I could easily brew with my current set-up happily into eternity, brewing beers as good as the next guy with a $2000 system. It took a lot of research for me to be able to get by with such cheap stuff, but I think it really paid off considering the amount of money (or lack there of) that I have. I also built this system up piece by piece, so I was able to learn as I went.

I realize I don't have near the experience as anybody else posting here, but at least the experience I do have is very recent in my mind. I anticipate that just about every piece of equipment in my arsenal will eventually be replaced by something else now that I realize this is a hobby I will be sticking with and don't regret the $200 I spent learning the things that I need and the things that I really don't need at all.

I also failed to mention that if you haven't considered it already, its not a bad idea to portion out some of your funds for a kegging setup. That is probably the next thing I will be buying. It seems that bottling drives just about everybody crazy pretty early in their homebrewing careers (with a few exceptions). Any sort of convenience that more equipment could bring me could not outweigh the convenience I expect kegging will bring me.