Critique my single tier pump plan

I'm not quite done with the stand, but the kegs are all converted. I just placed an order for high temp tubing a a bunch of quick disconnects. The system will use a single march pump for liquid transfer which is OK since I batch sparge. I also plan to recirculate my direct fired MLT. Please critique my plan for fixed and quick disconnected hose connections.

The orange dotted line is potential connections to the input of the pump, the purple are potential connections from the output of the pump.

Looks like you've got the bases covered. What's the total on the QDs going to run? I need to get some of those!

See! This is why I am jacked up about coming to your brewout. Just to discuss in real-time and in-person this kind of stuff. I know it's still a work-in-process, but I know that we'll both learn something!

Right on Rob. Sparky, I got the brass ones from Mcmaster with silicone seals. $1.75 for the males, $7ish for the right angle females with hose barbs.

It looks like you got it covered.My set-up will be smilar but i'm not recircing my mash and my BK will just go gravity fed to the fermenter(s).I made a similar diagram for figuring fitting needs.I ordered the plastic QDs from Midwest,5 males and 4 females. I'd show my diagram if i could.
Cheers

From my recent experience building something similar, I have one potentially important suggestion for you if you are using less than 1/2 inch tubing for your counterflow chiller. You are using a cfc right?
I have just moved to a whirlpool immersion chiller set up - mrmalty.com - partly because of the perceived benefits of the design in the brewing process, but mainly because my march pump couldn't push the wort through the length of my cfc.
The inside coil for the wort is 3/8.
It comes out at barely a trickle - very unsatisfactory.

Cheers.

I've been pumping through my 3/8" CFC with the pump for a few batches now and I guess I never paid any attention to the gallons per minute of it. I do have a nice IC and could easily go with a whirlpool design. There's nothing inherent in the hoses/disconnects that preclude it. In fact, I got some extra male disconnects since they're so cheap. I can see putting one on my "wort output nozzle" that creates the whirlpool. I guess I'll pay close attention to how long it takes to pump 10 gallons through the CFC and document it here.

Yorg said:

From my recent experience building something similar, I have one potentially important suggestion for you if you are using less than 1/2 inch tubing for your counterflow chiller. You are using a cfc right?
I have just moved to a whirlpool immersion chiller set up - mrmalty.com - partly because of the perceived benefits of the design in the brewing process, but mainly because my march pump couldn't push the wort through the length of my cfc.
The inside coil for the wort is 3/8.
It comes out at barely a trickle - very unsatisfactory.

Cheers.

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Something's not right here. Sounds like your pump isn't fully primed. I recirculate through my CFC (3/8") and you can't see any slow down in the flow rate.

Probably a dumb question -- why do you need output from the pump to go to the valve at the bottom of your MLT? Aren't you going to be adding to the top of the MLT, rather than through the manifold?

Not a dumb question. I actually made that link thinking it would be an easy way to pump batch sparge water in from the HLT. Then I drew in the connection to the top of the MLT for the recirculation and realized that's how I'd get the HLT water in and just forgot to remove that link.

I was wondering about that line going in through the manifold also but you cleared that up.Does your wort go straight into the fermenters after going through the chiller once or do you recirc more than once to reach pitching temp?
Cheers

Bobby_M said:

Not a dumb question. I actually made that link thinking it would be an easy way to pump batch sparge water in from the HLT. Then I drew in the connection to the top of the MLT for the recirculation and realized that's how I'd get the HLT water in and just forgot to remove that link.

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I noted the same thing about your BK connection. I've never tried it, but I guess it would work. I guess I thought the pump wouldn't be able to push against the head pressure of 7 gallons of wort. I'll try it next time. Also, why 90 degree female QD's?

I got the 90 degree QD's because they were only a dollar more than the straights and I figure it would take strain off the hose. IOW, the hose will hang straight down off the barb rather than form a 90 degree angle on its own. The males thread right into my ballvalves so they stick out horizontally. The pump will be mounted underneath.

I have recirculated wort back into the boil kettle through the CFC and I made that hose assembly long enough to do that or go right to the fermenter.

Good point about the head pressure. I know the March isn't good with it so I'll probably make some "over the rim" output pipe with a male QD on it. Prior to chilling the pump output would be connected to this. It will hang over the MLT when adding sparge water or recirculating the mash and then over the BK when draining runnings. It'll probably be integrated right into a lid that I'll just move to different vessels like the Brutus 10.

Why the brass disconnects instead of the readily available plastic food grade? My concern is handling a hot disconnect, the plastic wont get as hot to the touch.... A thought.

I don't know about Bobby, but those polysullphone QD's are WAY overpriced. Brass QD's are more durable, cheaper, and they really don't get THAT hot. Gloves are appropriate anyway, just because you're stirring a boiling liquid with searing hot steam coming out of the keggle....and when you disconnect your hoses/qd's some wort may get on your hands.

Add up the prices:

6 males x $1.75
3 90 degree females $8

$34

With the poly, just the males, $8.25 x 6 = ~$50. And I don't like that they'll be sitting so close to the burners.

That is a big price difference.

1. What are you making your stand out of? Welded steel? Erector set style? Is managing the piping for the burners technical (drilling, welding, etc.)?

2. What convinced you to go the direct fired route? I'm still working through some similar plans (nearly identical to yours) with an alternative as a HERMS setup to reduce the burners to two total, one for the BK and one for the HLT, with wort pumped through copper tubing in the HLT. That results in two burners, one pump (for batch sparging). What do you think of that idea?

i.) MT
ii.) HLT/HERMS for mashing/ice bath for chilling (burner #1)
iii.) BK(burner #2)

3. Are you doing any temperature controls for the propane burners (like the Brutus 10), or keeping it manual/simple?

4. Really dumb question, but where are the female and male QDs?

Never mind, see the QD in your diagram.

I do like the idea of HERMS and it's certainly not outside the capability of my stand design. I have both the third buner AND a spare immersion chiller I don't need so I can go either way.

When I think about my current process, the part of HERMS I don't like is having to get my entire HLT filled with water up to 150F and keep it there. I don't know, the more I think about it, I think HERMS and direct fire have about the same number of pros and cons. I'll try it both ways and pick the one I like better.

For the gas, I'm terminating my hose assembly onto the main gas "bus" which is 1/2" pipe. I'll run it down the stand and put "tees" at each burner position. The branch on the tee will have a valve, then use a compression fitting to attach 1/2"OD copper tubing to each burner. That would work if I find a neat way to suspend the burners. If not, I might try using all solid pipe and have it hold the burners in place. I'm not quite there yet.

Does the HLT need to be full to be effective for a HERMS? Is it just too slow if using sparge water (which one has to heat anyway) as the HERMS source?

JeffNYC said:

Does the HLT need to be full to be effective for a HERMS? Is it just too slow if using sparge water (which one has to heat anyway) as the HERMS source?

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I suppose you could make your wort coil larger in diamter/lower in height so it would stay submerged in the HLT water at lower volumes. You wouldn't want 2/3rds of the coil in open air.

Bobby_M said:

I suppose you could make your wort coil larger in diamter/lower in height so it would stay submerged in the HLT water at lower volumes. You wouldn't want 2/3rds of the coil in open air.

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I think you could get away with 2/3rds of it in the open air if the water was at sparge temperature. 152F wort going through a coil into 170F sparge water - you don't need to have much of the coil submerged. You move the coils up or down into the sparge water tank depending if you are a bit high or low on your mash temp. I've been thinking of building something like this with rungs so I can move the coils up or down in increments based on the mash temp. I also thought of motorizing it with controllers, but first things first.

Bobby,

Any chance you are making a video of this project? Would be helpful to see how to put together the propane pipes, set up for the burners, and QDs...

I certainly will document it in video when I finally get off my ass and start cutting some metal.

What is you plan for a the stand itself? Im going down the road sometime soon too once i get my pump. I was going for something like this guys:
I like the low profile the most. I want to do the QD instead of his valve system. The ball valve being high on the mash tun to be able to monitor flow is a good idea. I also want to direct fire my mash tun. What did you end up doing for a false bottom?

Bobby_M said:

Right on Rob. Sparky, I got the brass ones from Mcmaster with silicone seals. $1.75 for the males, $7ish for the right angle females with hose barbs.

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Could you post some part numbers. I am about ready to buy some QD's.

I kinda ended up with two threads with similar topics though I didn't intend to.
This thread was really more about the liquid flows and grew to more. I then had the "tres kegs" thread to talk about the fittings, brewstand etc... here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=44293

I do like the lowboy stand style which I plan to duplicate. I only intend to leave enough room under the burner for the CFC. I want to be able to stir the mash without bending over or getting on a step stool.

The MLT "filter" is still up for debate. I might try a large stainless braid first to see if I can get it to recirculate. I have my doubts but it's $8 instead of $40.

Disconnects:
Nipple with 1/2" MPT 6739K59
Female straight with 1/2" hose barb 6739K64
..same with an elbow (which I got) 6739K68

Making some progress. I've had a few different posts about various aspects of the build but I think I'll continue the whole progression in this one.

There was the "tres kegs" post here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=44293

Basically, here are the vessels:



The MLT will use a simple large diameter stainless braid fitted over a dip tube at least until it proves to NOT work with recirculated mashing.

I designed the stand in Google sketchup:


It's a good design as far as I can tell but making it a reality is much harder than drawing it. Cutting bedframe is a PIA. In fact all metal work is messy and it's something you can't appreciate by watching American Chopper. Here's the stand in its current state.



I have to do all the welding at my dad's house so I only brought it home to clean up my horrible welds. I've never welded in my life so making the metal stick together is my first goal, beauty comes second if ever.



Don't laugh or I'll just repost the pic of Biermuncher's beartrap keggle ;-)

Did that take you two bedrrames?

I think what you're looking at so far is at least three queen size frames. The long sides are 53" and the cutoff piece is too short for anything else. The sides and legs are about 16" so I might have gotten 6 pieces out of another frame. I don't remember really. I have about 12 frames in the garage all cut down to raw material. I expect to use just about all of it.

Looking good, Bobby!

/subscribed

I spent about 9 hours over at my parent's house yesterday finishing up the welding. I still have to grind some of the sloppy welds and strip to paint off the top so I can paint it with BBQ paint.

Looks Great Bobby! Can't wait to see how it looks when completed

Looks like things are coming along nicely. I think the angle iron around the top to hold the kettles in place is a great idea.

That looks really nice, and really low profile; much lower than the one I'm building. What's the height above ground and where will that put the top of your keggles?

Also, what kind of burners are you planning on using?

It will be a little higher after the 4" casters go on. The keg platform will be 20" from the floor. I wanted the tops of the kegs to be low enough that I can comfortably stir the mash without a step stool.

I'm using 23 tip natural gas ring burners plugged down to about 15 each.

That looks pretty reasonable, Bobby. Glad you're tackling some welding - it's fun, isn't it?

With regard to metal for a project like this - if you can't find spare bedframes on the cheap, angle iron is very inexpensive. 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 1/8" hot rolled angle shouldn't cost more than $1 a foot from a steel supplier (look up steel supply, metal supply, pipe supply, or salvage in the Yellow Pages).

I've collected so many bedframes over the past months that I actually have about 6 full ones left over now. Yes, welding is freakin addictive. At first, I was just trying to get a good enough bead to make it work as fast as possible. Towards the end I was putting beads where they weren't even necessary just for more practice. I need to upgrade my electrical service so I can buy my own.