Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

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What do you guys think about pressure fermentations? Time for a poll.

  • I've done it and I liked it just fine!

  • I've done it, nothing wrong with it, but prefer normal fermentation techniques.

  • I've done it, hate it, and never will do it again!

  • I've never done it, but it is on my list!

  • I've never done anything. I only brew beer in my mind.

Results are only viewable after voting.
Have you looked at ColeParmer or McMaster? They are commercial fittings specialists and have on-line catalogs. You'll pay for ordering only a few pieces, but they may have what you're looking for.
Sorry if this is a repeat, but I don't have time to go through this extensive thread right now.
 
Parts required and where they can be found:

Spunding Valve with airline connecting tap and valve:
- 1/4" beer/gas fitting: northern brewer, austin homebrew supply
- 1/4" tubing (cut at your preferred length): northern brewer, austin homebrew supply
- 1/4" barb x 1/4": Grainger item # 4HFG3 (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4HFG3?Pid=search) or McMaster #5346K14 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#5346k14/=4eyvi3)
- 1/4" FPTx 1/4" FPT x 1/4" FPT T-adapter: Grainger # 1VEY8 (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1VEY8?Pid=search) or McMaster #4429K251 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#4429k251/=4ez2ln)
- pressure gauge, 0-60 psi: McMaster # (http://www.mcmaster.com/#32255k72/=4ez5wo), although a bit expensive. I would buy from any online beer site (austinhomebrew, northernbrewer, etc for less)
- pressure relief valve, 0-60/0-100: Grainger # 4TK26 (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=4tk26&op=search&Ntt=4tk26&N=0&sst=All)
-pipe thread tape: Grainger # 4x227 (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4X227?Pid=search) or McMaster #4591K12 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#4591k12/=4ezaed)

For direct pipe connection to gas outlet of sankey coupler:
- replace 1/4" barb with 1/4" MFL tailpiece: Midwest part previously listed was incorrect. Midwest has said they will look into obtaining and offering the part we need for this, as their supplier makes 'every type of fitting one could need'. (Sorry if anyone ordered this piece. Just tell them that you were misinformed, as I was, and they should take it back and credit you fully just as they did on my order.)

*this will connect directly to the T fitting for your gauge and relief valve, however something along the lines of the following piece might improve the Spunding valve, giving a bit of distance between the sankey coupler and the valve: McMaster #9171K63 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#9171k63/=4ezbqq)

Sorry these aren't all at the same site. They may be available from just 2 of these sites instead of 3, or just one even to keep shipping down. Please add to this list if better items or prices can be found.
 
lamarguy said:
Well, I ran into a small glitch. The sanke fermentation kit has a slow leak around the gas out port (at the weld). I love the kit, but I tend to have bad luck with equipment. So, if there is a bum one in the batch, I'll get it 98% of the time. :D :eek:
Click to expand...

Derrin repaired the cracked weld on the gas out port and I'm going for my second attempt - Belgian Pale Ale fermented with Antwerp yeast (OG: 1.055).

The fermentation schedule is slightly different this time:

  • Day #1 - 0.5 PSI @ 67F (1.055)
  • Day #2 - 1 PSI @ 68F (1.030)
  • Day #3 - 2 PSI @ 69F (1.016)
  • Day #4 - 3 PSI @ 70F (1.013)
  • Day #5+ - 7 PSI @ 70F (1.012)
 
After conducting some more research about the effect of CO2 pressure on yeast, it appears that ~7 PSI (0.5 ATM) is the recommended maximum pressure during fermentation. Past 7 PSI, enzymatic behavior changes and negative affects on the yeast cell membrane and growth rate are observed.

Yeast physiology and biotechnology By Graeme M. Walker

Other sources have cited 4 - 7 PSI as optimal for both wine and beer yeast. Pressure has been shown to reduce the production of esters, including acetyl CoA. Acetyl CoA is a direct precursor of diacetyl, therefore CO2 pressure limits the production of diacetyl. However, it also reduces yeast cell growth.

Top Pressure Fermentation and Temperature Control

Cultivation of Yeast under Carbon Dioxide Pressure for use in Continuous Sparkling Wine Production

Fermentative capacity of baker's yeast exposed to hyperbaric stress

Thus, I've modified the [above] fermentation schedule to note a maximum pressure of 7 PSI. I plan to hold the beer at 7 PSI for another 7 days and transfer to a serving keg (under pressure). I'll then finish carbonating to ~4 volumes of CO2.

sanke-5.jpg


sanke-6.jpg
 
lamarguy said:
After conducting some more research about the effect of CO2 pressure on yeast, it appears that ~7 PSI (0.5 ATM) is the recommended maximum pressure during fermentation. Past 7 PSI, enzymatic behavior changes and negative affects on the yeast cell membrane and growth rate are observed.

Yeast physiology and biotechnology By Graeme M. Walker

Other sources have cited 4 - 7 PSI as optimal for both wine and beer yeast.

Thus, I've modified the [above] fermentation schedule to note a maximum pressure of 6 PSI. I plan to hold the beer at 6 PSI for another 7 days and transfer to a serving keg (under pressure). I'll then finish carbonating to ~4 volumes of CO2.
Click to expand...

lamarguy, would you be able to post or pm some of your resources (I'll be reading through the one you did post). I haven't really been able to find that much on pressurized fermentations and I would like to read up on it as I will probably give it a whirl soon enough. Just need to get a pressure relief setup. Thanks.
 
I've been thinking of giving this a whirl. Does anyone ferments under pressure dry hop? If so, how do you do it? I'm guessing by putting the hops in a tea-ball in a bright tank, transfer the carbed beer to the bright tank and let it sit for a week, then transfer to serving keg?
 
Great info lamarguy. Recently I read something about tall 'Apollo' fermenters creating less esters due to the extra weight (i.e. hydrostatic pressure). Not something a homebrewer would ever have to worry about but the theory is the same. I really need to get a vessel to do this.
 
A big round of applause to lamarguy!!!! You found the study I was trying to refind after doing my initial research into this. I read all the recommendations about pressures, and it was always for accelerated or higher temperature fermentations. I didn't want to do any of this, but normal temperatures at higher pressures. This is great information to do our own research from. I am so glad this thread has turned to more research literature, and to more help with the method.

The lower ester production is a key value for me. The higher initial production, and then faster cleanup of diacetyl is what kaiser led me to with this thread. Saccharomyces higher temperture lager fermentation is going to be great to add to this as well, or with his own thread. I simply like the simplicity of fermenting under pressure, and towards the end of fermentation raising the pressure to carbonation levels once the yeast have done thier primary job. I have had great luck in doing this, and really enjoy the product already carbonated going into my serving keg.

As for the dry-hopping, I hope we can gather more info on that. My thinking is to have a filter canister with hops (like a Randall) to use during transfer to my serving keg. Otherwise, it would be hard to accomplish without opening the keg-fermenter or having to transfer to yet another keg after dry-hopping the secondary. I hope we can all provide a ton more information to this thread for all to read. Man I love the P-ferment! Thanks again for everyone providing to this thread.
 
Have you guys heard Brew Strong's show about fermentation vessels?

There's a portion in the broad cast that discusses why kegs, specifically cornys, aren't a very good container to ferment because of, among other reasons, pressure on the yeast.

I'm fermenting in cornys, and have experienced less than optimal attenuation. I'd like to use BYO's spunding valve for a corny to ferment under pressure, but now I'm reconsidering
 
Hugh_Jass said:
Have you guys heard Brew Strong's show about fermentation vessels?

There's a portion in the broad cast that discusses why kegs, specifically cornys, aren't a very good container to ferment because of, among other reasons, pressure on the yeast.
Click to expand...

The hydrostatic pressure in a soda/sanke keg is ~0.7 PSI. The hydrostatic pressure in a bucket/carboy is ~0.6 PSI. The hydrostatic pressure in a 16ft tall fermenter is 7 PSI. See the difference? :)

The more I listen to John and Jamil, the less impressed I am with their ability to do the necessary research...Hydrostatic pressure is only an issue in very tall vessels (e.g. 16+ ft high) and commercial breweries manage to produce great beer in them. I can't help but :rolleyes: when I listen to these guys lately.

Hugh_Jass said:
I'm fermenting in cornys, and have experienced less than optimal attenuation.
Click to expand...

Your assertion that the dimensions of the corny keg are somehow limiting the attenuation appears to be anecdotal. There are many reasons why "optimal" attenuation is not achieved, none of which involve reasonable (e.g., < 15 psi) CO2 head pressure. This is supported by the literature.

For example, my recent pressurized fermentation experiment resulted in 78% apparent attenuation, which is above the average attenuation for the chosen yeast strain. Additionally, the beer was fermented at the lower end of the recommended temperature range and above atmospheric pressure (0.5 - 7 PSI).
 
from that broadcast, it sounds like their issue is that the height/width ratio of 5 gal cornies is not good due to the circulation of yeast within the solution and its access to the wort in its entirety while fermenting.

they quickly move on to the cube fermenters in australia and other issues. Quickly mentioned is the atmospheric pressure, which lamarguy appropriately addressed. but the first thing they said is that none of them have fermented under pressure in a corny (and let's assume also not with a sankey). It sounds like conjecture, although based on some knowledge. Doesn't seem like any research was done in this instance; more like it was just an impromtu part of the discussion.

Let us continue to bravely go where no (home)brewer has gone before. (Yeah, I know that's a bit presumptuous.)
 
Thanks for the replys:mug:

I agree that my experience is purely anecdotal, and really is not directly related to fermenting under pressure. Sorry for the :off:
 
lamarguy said:
Hydrostatic pressure is only an issue in very tall vessels (e.g. 16+ ft high) and commercial breweries manage to produce great beer in them. I can't help but :rolleyes: when I listen to these guys lately.
Click to expand...

Right, I consider the hydrostatic pressure for commercial brewer to be an advantage, because he can ferment 4-5*F warmer than we can, with the same level of esters. For instance I have read Avery ferments at 74*F, and their house strain is similar to London Ale. I get more esters at 66*F using that yeast than I get from their beers.

I also think the closed system has a huge advantage in that the beer never touches oxygen, and oxygen damage is one of the biggest threats to homebrew. Commercial systems are kept closed end-end for this reason.

Now that I have moved up to 10 gallon standard batch size, I am seriously considering ditching my buckets and carboys in favor of fermenting 100% in kegs. I don't have Sankes yet, but I can do high gravity 8 gallon batches split across two corny kegs in the interim, and just dedicate two kegs with 3/4" cut off the dip tubes as fermenters.
 
Saccharomyces said:
Right, I consider the hydrostatic pressure for commercial brewer to be an advantage, because he can ferment 4-5*F warmer than we can, with the same level of esters.
Click to expand...

Yup, pressurized fermentation is certainly another "tool" in the homebrewers toolbox. It allows us to simulate what the big boys do without a large investment in equipment.

I've read a couple more papers this afternoon and the consensus is:

CO2 Top Pressure Advantages (up to 14.5 PSI or 1 BAR)

  1. Reduced esters (ethyl acetate, isoamyl acetate, etc.)
  2. Reduced acetyl CoA (precursor to diacetyl)
  3. Reduced fusel alcohols
  4. "Free" partial carbonation
  5. Limits foaming during fermentation (similar to silica products), which increases BUs and allows more wort to ferment in a given vessel.

#1 may or may not be desirable, depending on the beer. #2 is always a good thing. #3 is somewhat debated since fusel alcohol production is also strain and temperature dependent. #4 saves conditioning time since the beer is [partially] carbonated.

CO2 Top Pressure Disadvantages

  1. Reduced yeast (biomass) growth.
  2. Increased diacetyl production during the growth phase.
  3. Increased acetaldehyde (green apple)

#1 and #2 are avoided by waiting until after the growth phase (minimum of 16 hours) to apply top pressure. #2 can also be avoided by conducting a 12 hour diacetyl rest after the beer is fully attenuated. #3 is primarily strain dependent, so one should select a yeast strain that is not a vigorous acetaldehyde producer if 14.5+ PSI (1 BAR) top pressure is applied.
 
how are you guys pitching when using kegs? last time i pitched into cooled wort in the keggle, then pumped into the sankey, but worried about the turbulence. pitching through the opening in a sankey seemed risky (missing/splashing) and stirring even more difficult.

so...?
 
nbspindel said:
Quickly mentioned is the atmospheric pressure, which lamarguy appropriately addressed. but the first thing they said is that none of them have fermented under pressure in a corny (and let's assume also not with a sankey). It sounds like conjecture, although based on some knowledge. Doesn't seem like any research was done in this instance; more like it was just an impromtu part of the discussion.

Let us continue to bravely go where no (home)brewer has gone before. (Yeah, I know that's a bit presumptuous.)
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. They hear about it, it isn't what they do, they talk it down or say they wouldn't do it. Why don't they take up the experimental side and try it, so they can appropiately down it with science and knowledge instead of conjecture and ignorance (from not having done it or read about it I mean, Jamil is deffinitely not ignorant). I like those guys, but man they could use some HBT reading before their broadcasts for a heads-up ;).

I agree with you too, procede bravely gentle-brewers into the land of the keg fermentation!!!
Saccharomyces said:
Right, I consider the hydrostatic pressure for commercial brewer to be an advantage, because he can ferment 4-5*F warmer than we can, with the same level of esters. For instance I have read Avery ferments at 74*F, and their house strain is similar to London Ale. I get more esters at 66*F using that yeast than I get from their beers.
Click to expand...
Exactly! I started this technique write-up for ales to get me into lagers easier (still haven't accomplished a lager on my home system yet :p), and didn't worry about the higher temperature ferments or lower byproducts. I was just interested in faster beer (carbonation maturation period running consecutively with secondary maturation period without changing a vessel or exposure to oxygen), and figured if it worked great on my ales then lagers (which is the main reason I attempted this) would be even better with the system. It works, and the yeast love the pressure not hate it!
Saccharomyces said:
I also think the closed system has a huge advantage in that the beer never touches oxygen, and oxygen damage is one of the biggest threats to homebrew. Commercial systems are kept closed end-end for this reason.
Click to expand...
I agree completely, and this was what started my research to see if pressure hurt yeast. Then I found (what lamarguy posted and found and I couldn't find to put in this thread... like the ******* I am) and read it, convincing me I could take the step confidently. I was going to make it a closed system without pressure at first, then tap it to tranfer (remaining atmosphere free with a one-way spunding valve). Having no atmosphere from the time I pitch to pour is a huge monkey off my back. No more worries about contamination, and if there is... I know where it came from easier.

Saccharomyces said:
Now that I have moved up to 10 gallon standard batch size, I am seriously considering ditching my buckets and carboys in favor of fermenting 100% in kegs. I don't have Sankes yet, but I can do high gravity 8 gallon batches split across two corny kegs in the interim, and just dedicate two kegs with 3/4" cut off the dip tubes as fermenters.
Click to expand...
Go for it! Move on up like the Jefferson's. You will love the "party keg" 1/2 BBL kegs, and your yeast will make them a true PARTY KEG!!! I think with your recommended enzyme usage in your experiment, fermcap during fermentation, and proper temperature control per style... we have a winner winner chicken dinner.
lamarguy said:
Yup, pressurized fermentation is certainly another "tool" in the homebrewers toolbox. It allows us to simulate what the big boys do without a large investment in equipment.
Click to expand...
Yep, and some of what you stated as dissadvantage can be corrected with a higher temperature fermentation, long enough rest period, and yeast strain. Yeast biomass can greatly increase with a little higher temperature. More diacetyl can be created faster with this technique, yet (per kaisers provided graph) it gets cleaned up just as fast at the end of fermentation. As for acetaldehyde, I believe that to be more of a yeast thing too. Maybe I need to read more (again:)), but I think a lot of variables plus the strain chosen would make this a "problem." I honestly don't know though, so experimental knowledge is anxiously awaited from all of us. All in all, I am so happy this has taken off and feel so proud to be a part of it. Pat ourselves on the backs boys, we make brewing easier... just with more expensive equipment!!! Ahhh the paradox.
 
hey guys,

i'm finishing up with my first attempt at this in a sankey. because it was pressurized in fermentation, it had some carb on it already, then i put my CO2 tank to it and have been pressuring it to 2.5 volumes for 48hrs. For turkey day i filled 2 bottles to bring to dinner and when i popped them open, both were flat. I can't figure out why I would have lost the carbonation. I could understand the new pressure that i'm forcing it to, but that original carbonation left over from the fermentation??? i'll wait a week and make sure the force carb has a chance to work properly, but have you had any experience similar to this when bottling?

to bottle, i'm using a cheapo thumb tap attached to part of a racking cane which goes through a stopper in the mouth of the bottle. I read a how-to from here about this method and others said it worked well to retain carbonation.

thanks
 
Was the beer cold when you carbonated it? When you transfered it? I haven't done any bottling other than from my tap in my kegerator, however I am fully carbonated after primary and haven't had to add any extra to it. I do use a bit more pressure while fermenting though, 12-15psi (after a couple of days of lower pressure primary fermentation), before I close up the keg for the carbonation prior to my crash cooling rest. After the beer is at crash cooling temperatures is the only chance for it to be lessened in my fermenter. I can't think of anything that would cause the flat beer other than the questions I just posted.

How did the beer taste other than being flat? Hope this doesn't discourage you as I do get excellent product. Tweek what you are doing and maybe you can get your system down.
 
cold? that's relative :) it stayed between 62-65 through primary with about 5psig. Then i transferred it to secondary keg under the same pressure, between 5-10psig. Since that pressure is low for the carb level, i put my tank to it. I don't have a fridge/lager chest yet, so I had to do it at 60F. I put about 23psig onto the beer for the desired 2.3-2.5 volumes.

Prior to transferring, the beer was almost fully carbed and tasted great! I'll assume it's just too early or something during the bottling process went wrong. I don't think I'll ever go back to buckets and carboys, as simple as this has been to double my batch size.

Does anyone dry hop using this method? I was thinking that might be difficult, but i guess it isnt unlike dry hopping in a carboy with the narrow neck. Not sure about how the pressurized transfer would work though. Or what about flavor additions after primarying. Would you just relieve the pressure to remove the spear to add the ingredients?
 
OK, I'm not sure if you did a counter pressure transfer or not, but that could be it. Especially at those higher temps. I transfer my beer as close to 32*F as I can get it.

Dry hopping would be hard without releasing pressure and opening, unless you rig a "filter" between transfers. Then you could pack the filter canister with hops and it would act like a Randall. In my system I never want pressure released that was created, so I would have to do it this way, or actually using a Randall on my kegerator prior to the glass.
 
i transferred using counter-pressure, as you described. Pressure in primary was around 5psig, pressure in secondary (where I was moving it to) was already about 5 psig as well. hooked up my taps, put CO2 to the line and let it rip at about 10psig. I expected not to loose any pressure/carbonation that I had already created, but i'm not sure now. After 3 days under forced pressure, there's head, but no carb in the beer. Is 60 too warm to force carb beer? I thought it just might take longer. I'll just wait and see.
 
nbspindel said:
i transferred using counter-pressure, as you described. Pressure in primary was around 5psig, pressure in secondary (where I was moving it to) was already about 5 psig as well. hooked up my taps, put CO2 to the line and let it rip at about 10psig. I expected not to loose any pressure/carbonation that I had already created, but i'm not sure now. After 3 days under forced pressure, there's head, but no carb in the beer. Is 60 too warm to force carb beer? I thought it just might take longer. I'll just wait and see.
Click to expand...
10 PSI at 60 degrees is not enough.
http://ebrew.com/primarynews/ct_carbonation_chart.htm

I think at 60 degrees you'd almost need almost 20 psi (depending on the style).
 
yeah, i put 10 psig to transfer from one keg to another while under pressure. To force carb it i've got it set to 23 psig, hoping that it will sooner or later get to 2.3-2.5.

60F isnt too warm though to force carb, is it? i mean, a liquid will carbonate at any normal temperature if there's enough pressure exerted upon it, right?
 
You really want to carbonate at a lower temperature than 60*F. My beer does carbonate at these temperatures, but I am sealed until the beer reaches a glass at serving temperatures. I also transfer to my serving keg at as close to 32*F as I can get, and at counter-pressure. I don't know what to tell you other than this is the way I do it and I am fully carbonated. I actually have to lose some of my carbonation, at least a few times.
 
gotta just work on it to perfect it i guess. I'm slowly building a ferm chamber/cooler as funds and time permits, so hopefully for next batch i'll be ready to follow your lead more closely.
 
When you fellas transfer to your serving keg after crash cooling, do you pre-pressurize the serving keg beforehand to do a true counter-pressure transfer? If not, how do you avoid having the beer turn to foam and lose it's carbonation?
 
GNBrews said:
When you fellas transfer to your serving keg after crash cooling, do you pre-pressurize the serving keg beforehand to do a true counter-pressure transfer? If not, how do you avoid having the beer turn to foam and lose it's carbonation?
Click to expand...

I cold crash the pressure fermented (~8 psi) beer at 35F, which lowers the pressure to ~4 psi and then transfer to a co2 flushed keg with the lid in place and a vented gas disconnect installed. The beer is cold and gently introduced into the keg via the liquid out port, so very minimal foaming.

This is the same concept as using a Blichmann beer gun. I could transfer under partial counter-pressure into the destination keg (e.g., at 2 psi), but I don't currently see a need to do so.

I plan to experiment with coarse filtering (e.g., 5 micron) my pressure fermented beer soon, so it may become necessary to introduce a small counter-pressure if foaming is evident within the filter housing.
 
GNBrews said:
When you fellas transfer to your serving keg after crash cooling, do you pre-pressurize the serving keg beforehand to do a true counter-pressure transfer? If not, how do you avoid having the beer turn to foam and lose it's carbonation?
Click to expand...
I do! I pressure up to 15 psi in my target keg, then transfer with 15 psi bottle gas out of the primary fermenter keg. With my spunding valve on my target keg set to 15 psi, I then up the bottle pressure a little to try and have a slow flow to the target keg. This insures I don't have a lot of sediment entering the target keg. I like the true counter-pressure transfer, and the spunding valve makes that easy.:ban:
 
WortMonger, About how long should it take to transfer 5 gallons. When you say you up the bottle pressure, how much? To 20lb?

Thanks, Andy
 
if you're using 3/8 diameter tubing, it takes a while to transfer. when using wortmonger's method, you can probably leave it for about 10 minutes, but i'd be careful, because once the beer is into the target keg, you'll basically just be pumping CO2 into the secondary, which will go right into the serving keg, which then goes straight out the spunding valve. (just in case you don't realize that). It'll drain your tank pretty quick.

I'd suggest using wortmonger's method. Before I transferred from primary to secondary, i had capped of the primary and let carbonation build. Beer was near fully carbonated, but i transferred without enough counterpressure and lost all of my carbonation!
 
Razorbrew said:
WortMonger, About how long should it take to transfer 5 gallons. When you say you up the bottle pressure, how much? To 20lb?

Thanks, Andy
Click to expand...
nbspindel is right about it taking about 10 minutes. I up the pressure like it was a sink valve handle. Start with both at the same pressures and when you increase the initial keg, the target keg will start filling. I eventually get to about 5 psi over target keg pressure in my initial keg after I have beer in the target keg. nbspindle is "right on" about watching the keg fill too, as it will start blowing the CO2 into the bottom of the target keg and will foam the beer up and out of your gas port once you are empty in the initial keg. Slow is the key to keeping your carbonation and not having a mess on your hands. You can also keep both kegs at the same pressure to start, and then lessen the pressure in your target keg. However, this isn't as safe a way to transfer as the first way mentioned. It is still a counter-pressure transfer, just not as easy to control as the first way. It will work though either way. I like my target kept at the pressure I want it to end up at, and raise the pressure in the first keg as control.
 
cford1 said:
I have read this thread probably 5 times now, and I think I might have to give it a go. Since I would be doing this in cornies, I just wanted to double check with you guys to see if this: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_40_271_275_272&products_id=10397 would work. I am thinking of doing 4 gallon batches and using some Ferm Cap-S just in case.

What do you experts think?
Click to expand...

I agree, get one that relieve pressure by itself.

Be very quiet!

Don't tell the anti-cornelius keg fermenters, but I primary in a corny keg and love it, add 2 drops per gallon and you can primary 4.5 gal. without worry.

I also fermented my last batch of AM. Amber under 12 PSI. in a corny. It's currently cold crashing, will transfer this weekend.

I got my relief valve from Grainger. Only $16 and maintained pressure very well. A few extra fittings from Menards and only took 5 Min to assemble.

keg_under_press.jpg
 

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