I'm Contemplating Decoction...

I was just going to do a 2-step direct-heated mash on my amber lager on Saturday, but after posting the recipe, I'm leaning more and more towards 2-step decoction. It sounds like it'll add some time and effort to my mash, but if I wake up an hour earlier, I could make it work.

Is it really worth it? I've searched HBT and lots of people say it makes a big difference. The problem, though, is that I was planning on brewing 2 batches side-by-side, and this seems like it requires a lot of attention.

I'm torn. I really want to make a great amber lager, but I also have to make my basil IPA before my cinnamon-basil plant dies off...

Decoctions are a lot of work, when I decocted my hefe, it took an extra two hours (but I had a lot of trouble getting to my sac rest temp). I wouldn't try and do another batch at the same time, nor do it when you have the pressure of needing to be done by a certain time. Decoctions are fun and enjoyable if time's not an issue, if it is, it'll just be extra stress and work.

Brew the Basil IPA (if you must ) this weekend, do the Amber Lager when you've got a full day.

I do em every once in a while. Great results, but really I would only do it with certain recipes. I hear Ralph Nader does em in his sleep.

I've done a couple of them now. I agree with the_bird, they're a lot of fun if you have the time to do them, but I wouldn't want to do one in a hurry. And they definitely demand your full attention.

I'm honestly not sure how much difference I saw between a single infusion hefe and a decocted one, but sometimes I like to do procedure for procedures sake.

i dont think decoction are all that much more work, at least not an extra 2 hours as posted above. When I tried mine (a single decoction, raising from a protein rest to sac. rest), I did all the math, planned it out before hand and executed it. Probably added....oh maybe 30 mins more. I say try it, and then you know for your self what its all about. Now if you are doing a double brew day....with a double decoction...that maybe a little over whelming because once your decoction starts boiling, you need to basically stir it constantly. I would recommend trying a single decoction first. Just my 2 cents

It only took me an extra two hours because I was doing an acid rest, and there was an extra thirty or forty minutes while I futzed around getting up to 152° (or whatever temp I was going for). I basically ended up doing like three decoctions instead of one...

So...okay, help me out here. With my Amber Lager recipe, will I get a marked improvement from a single decoc? Or is a double step really where it's at?

I'm actually leaning more towards holding off on the IPA and just doing the lager by itself. If I mash in at 5am, is it realistic to be done (in the fermenter) by noon?

EDIT: If I were to just do the Amber Lager, and I wanted to do a double decoc just because lagers take so long to be ready and I want it to be as good as it can be...then what should my mash schedule look like? I'm getting mixed signals from the various google results.

I like doing them a lot, not sure if it makes a beer any better. But the beers I have done one on have turned out very good. Just remember when you remove the grains take about 1 1/2 times more than you think you need to take out. I just generally think its a cool process,that and I mash in a cooler so it is my only way to step mash.

this is where i got most of my info from

http://brewery.org/library/DecoctFAQ.html

Yeast Infection said:

this is where i got most of my info from

http://brewery.org/library/DecoctFAQ.html

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I've been using the very same page (hosted on HBD.org) in designing my mash, actually. Damn, this sounds like it'll be pretty fun. I guess that seals it: I'm going double-decoc. No looking back...

Am am too planning my first decoction and looking at that diagram has me thinking. Will a protein rest of that long not kill you beer's body and head retention? I know in general can be true for protein rests and is why most don't use them...is there any reason a decoction would be diffferent?

Beerrific said:

Am am too planning my first decoction and looking at that diagram has me thinking. Will a protein rest of that long not kill you beer's body and head retention? I know in general can be true for protein rests and is why most don't use them...is there any reason a decoction would be diffferent?

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Not sure, but all three sources had their p-rest at least as long as mine. ProMash's German Double Decoc mash sched actually had the p-rest at 125 mins! If it were truly detrimental to body & head retention, one would think that someone would have figured it out by now.

Evan! said:

Not sure, but all three sources had their p-rest at least as long as mine. ProMash's German Double Decoc mash sched actually had the p-rest at 125 mins! If it were truly detrimental to body & head retention, one would think that someone would have figured it out by now.

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Yeah, I guess so. I know that king of p-rest is needed if you are using under modified malts which you can buy but I don't know why you would.

Beerrific said:

Am am too planning my first decoction and looking at that diagram has me thinking. Will a protein rest of that long not kill you beer's body and head retention? I know in general can be true for protein rests and is why most don't use them...is there any reason a decoction would be diffferent?

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This is why i think its soo long:

Its because your are decocting/boiling a fraction of the mash during this time, and the other non decocted part of the mash just sits there at that temp. Since it is going from 122 ish to 152 ish, you need a large fraction of the mash to decoct = takes longer to bring to boil.

Then when you are raising from the low 150's to the high 150's, you use a smaller fraction as the decoction = less time to bring to boil.


...i think?

but i dont know if that will augment body and head retention. sorry.

Yeast Infection said:

This is why i think its soo long:

Its because your are decocting/boiling a fraction of the mash during this time, and the other non decocted part of the mash just sits there at that temp. Since it is going from 122 ish to 152 ish, you need a large fraction of the mash to decoct = takes longer to bring to boil.

Then when you are raising from the low 150's to the high 150's, you use a smaller fraction as the decoction = less time to bring to boil.


...i think?

but i dont know if that will augment body and head retention. sorry.

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I guess what i was saying could be applied to any step mash, not just a decoction. The protein rest will breakdown the proteins which contribute to the body and head retention of the beer. I did this with my hefeweizen and it came out kind of thin.

I suppose, however, that balancing the other rests may help to counter this (higher conversion temp.)?

I tried decoction twice, the hefe turned out to be me best so far. I think it takes so long b/c you need to bring the decocted part of the mash to a boil very slowly. Very very slowly, b/c you need conversion from that part of the mash. When I did it, I brought 1/4(or1/3) of the mash out to get to the next step. If you do that three times, that means as much as 3/4 of your mash has been boiled. If you're bringing it to the boil and you're not getting conversion from that portion you may end up with a way low OG. Like the_bird I missed my sacc temp both times, had do another decoc. Hope this helps and makes sense, I am no expert. The fact that you're boiling such a large portion of your mash is so weird to me, seems to work though.

landhoney said:

I tried decoction twice, the hefe turned out to be me best so far. I think it takes so long b/c you need to bring the decocted part of the mash to a boil very slowly. Very very slowly, b/c you need conversion from that part of the mash. When I did it, I brought 1/4(or1/3) of the mash out to get to the next step. If you do that three times, that means as much as 3/4 of your mash has been boiled. If you're bringing it to the boil and you're not getting conversion from that portion you may end up with a way low OG. Like the_bird I missed my sacc temp both times, had do another decoc. Hope this helps and makes sense, I am no expert. The fact that you're boiling such a large portion of your mash is so weird to me, seems to work though.

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I shouldn't have a problem with hitting sacc temps, since I plan on going the good ol' direct heated mash route. If my temps are too low...just turn the burner on for a minute or two. I do love direct heat...takes a little more attention, but I never end up missing temps, etc.

Evan! said:

I shouldn't have a problem with hitting sacc temps, since I plan on going the good ol' direct heated mash route. If my temps are too low...just turn the burner on for a minute or two. I do love direct heat...takes a little more attention, but I never end up missing temps, etc.

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Are you planning on doing the whole temp rise by direct heat in the mash tun or are you planning on still doing the boils and just using the direct heat to make minor upward changes in the temp.

My understanding (very limited) is that its the boiling of the mash that produces a lot of the interesting profiles and not just the staged temp rises in themselves.

My 0.2 pesos after several years of step & decoction mashes:

Step: definitely makes a difference on certain beers / grists. I will incorporate an acid rest into all of my Hefeweizens if at all possible, for instance. I use a coolertun, so direct heat is not an option. My two methods of stepping are decoction and infusion.

Decoction: I think it's a fun procedure when you have time. Does it make a difference in taste? I'm not so sure, at least with the grains that are available to us. I do get a big spike in efficiency, but for some people it's not worth the hours. I would hate to be put on the spot and have to pick a decocted beer out in a blind taste test.

Sometimes I do decoctions because I feel like it, and sometimes I do them because I want to step and don't have room for an infusion.

I'm still of the opinion to not do the decoction when there's any pressure on the back end regarding time. You can probably get it done in seven hours, but decoctions are really only worthwhile if you're going to be able to really enjoy the process. Otherwise, toss in some melanoidin and do a single infusion. But, that's me speaking for myself, I like to be - unhurried - when I brew. It can't feel like work.

delboy said:

Are you planning on doing the whole temp rise by direct heat in the mash tun or are you planning on still doing the boils and just using the direct heat to make minor upward changes in the temp.

My understanding (very limited) is that its the boiling of the mash that produces a lot of the interesting profiles and not just the staged temp rises in themselves.

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I'm still doing the full-on double decoc by boiling a portion of the mash. But my main mash vessel will be a 32qt kettle, to allow for easier temp modulation. What I'm going to do is only add back a portion of the boiling mash, stir it in, and see what temps I have. It's easier to raise the temps on a direct-heat mash than it is to lower it (see: ice cubes).

the_bird said:

I'm still of the opinion to not do the decoction when there's any pressure on the back end regarding time. You can probably get it done in seven hours, but decoctions are really only worthwhile if you're going to be able to really enjoy the process. Otherwise, toss in some melanoidin and do a single infusion. But, that's me speaking for myself, I like to be - unhurried - when I brew. It can't feel like work.

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Well...I guess I'm not on as much of a time crunch as I let on. Yes, Tech-ECU kicks off at noon, but the magic of DVR means that, if for some reason I'm not done by noon, it's no big deal. Just more extra DVR time to skip through timeouts and commercials. So, yeah, I'm definitely doing the double decoc.

I was actually reading about vienna mashes this morning in Designing Great Beers, and Daniels talks about how they did a third decoc, but instead of removing the mash, they drained some wort from the spigot and boiled that for awhile. Has anyone done this?

Baron von BeeGee said:

Decoction: I think it's a fun procedure when you have time. Does it make a difference in taste? I'm not so sure, at least with the grains that are available to us. I do get a big spike in efficiency, but for some people it's not worth the hours. I would hate to be put on the spot and have to pick a decocted beer out in a blind taste test.

Sometimes I do decoctions because I feel like it, and sometimes I do them because I want to step and don't have room for an infusion.

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Well...damn. Here I am all set to do a decoc, and Baron throws this at me. The poll results are far from conclusive. Maybe I should just meet in the middle and do a single step decoc.

Evan! said:

I was actually reading about vienna mashes this morning in Designing Great Beers, and Daniels talks about how they did a third decoc, but instead of removing the mash, they drained some wort from the spigot and boiled that for awhile. Has anyone done this?

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I read quick, I thought you were going to a game or something....

That sounds like doing a thin decoction. What you need to be careful about is that most of the enzymes are in the liquid ("thin") portion of the mash. So, you can boil some of the thin mash to get to mashout temp (since you're trying to denature the enzymes at that point). But, you generally want to stick to boiling the thick part (with fewer enzymes) prior to the sac rest.

At least, that's my understanding, The Good Baron is expert in these matters, not I (98% of what I know about decoctions I've picked up from Baron, Kai, and Glib).

the_bird said:

I read quick, I thought you were going to a game or something....

That sounds like doing a thin decoction. What you need to be careful about is that most of the enzymes are in the liquid ("thin") portion of the mash. So, you can boil some of the thin mash to get to mashout temp (since you're trying to denature the enzymes at that point). But, you generally want to stick to boiling the thick part (with fewer enzymes) prior to the sac rest.

At least, that's my understanding, The Good Baron is expert in these matters, not I (98% of what I know about decoctions I've picked up from Baron, Kai, and Glib).

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Yeah, unfortunately Daniels didn't go into many specifics about why they did it, he just said that it was popular with vienna decocs.

Well, with triple decoctions, it's typical that the third decoction is for mashing out. IIRC, the second decoction in a double is often to get to mashout temps, as well. I have heard of boiling the thin for mashout, and IIRC it's usually a quick boil. Again, as long as youv'e converted, no problems boiling the thin mash at that point. You just need to be careful how much of the thin mash you boil prior to the sac rest, so that you don't denature too many enzymes.

Damn, I need to do another decoction! I forgot that I had purchased a vial of hefeweizen yeast, I think for a dunkelweizen.... maybe I'll do that, decocted, up at Glib's house.

Yeah, according to my mash schedule, I should hit mashout temps from the second decoc...so the third step would seem unnecessary.

BTW, thanks for the help on this. It's like starting all over again.

Yeast Infection said:

i dont think decoction are all that much more work, at least not an extra 2 hours as posted above.

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+1. I always decoct my hefeweizen (single and double)... and if you some rough planning/math ahead of time, it is not appreciably harder. Then again, it may just be that I don't know what I'm doing.

Evan! said:

Yeah, according to my mash schedule, I should hit mashout temps from the second decoc...so the third step would seem unnecessary.

BTW, thanks for the help on this. It's like starting all over again.

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That's how I felt. It's really not hard unless you're an idiot like me. But, if I hadn't had Kai to show me how the process worked at a basic level, plus guys like Glib and Baron (AND NO THANKS TO DUDE!), I wouldn't have considered doing it myself.

It's like taking the step from extract to all-grain; if you love the process of making beer, you'll love the process of doing a decoction.

the_bird said:

That's how I felt. It's really not hard unless you're an idiot like me. But, if I hadn't had Kai to show me how the process worked at a basic level, plus guys like Glib and Baron (AND NO THANKS TO DUDE!), I wouldn't have considered doing it myself.

It's like taking the step from extract to all-grain; if you love the process of making beer, you'll love the process of doing a decoction.

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Yeah, it sounds pretty intense, and I love the process of AG rather than extract...so much more rewarding.

Been watching Harvey Birdman Season 2 on DVD. A effin' love that show. Ha HA! :rockin:

I think decoctions do matter, but they can be a pain in the butt. I screwed up one of the four I've done and burned the grain. The result was awful. My first rule of decocting that I've since learned - watch your pot like a hawk and stir like hell with a sturdy utensil.

the_bird said:

It only took me an extra two hours because I was doing an acid rest, and there was an extra thirty or forty minutes while I futzed around getting up to 152° (or whatever temp I was going for). I basically ended up doing like three decoctions instead of one...

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Yeah, I had to do the same thing. I was going for a single on my Octoberfest but I didn't hit my temp the first time, so I pulled some wort out and just boiled that and added it back to hit 153.

I've never decocted before, but all the decoction beers I have tried were a little different in depth. Whether it is worth the extra time I really couldn't comment. i am sure going to try one when I get my lager equipment ready and brew my first lager on my system.

Okay, so...here's the HBT page I've been looking at for direction...and it says:

Average 2-step method
For Belgian pale ale, German pilsner, Munich styles and Bavarian wheat beer.

This method takes 2.5 to 3.5 hours, depending on the grist.

* Strike temperature of 53C, stir well and rest for 20'
* Stir and take 1/3 of the mash. (If you use a large proportion of unmalted grains you can take less of the mash and add water and dry crushed grains to make up 1/3 of the total volume). Heat to 72C, rest for 20' (malt) to 40' (malt+grains).
* Bring to boil and boil for 15-30'
* Add back to reach a temperature of 65-67C, rest 15-35'
* Take 1/4 of the mash, boil for 15-30'
* Add back to reach a temperature of 70-73C, rest until saccharification is complete (30'-1h).
* No mash-out, start sparge immediately.

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Help me out here: "strike temperature", as he's referring to it here, would be my protein rest temp, not the temp of my strike water...right? Is 53C a good protein rest temp?

Evan! said:

I was just going to do a 2-step direct-heated mash on my amber lager on Saturday, but after posting the recipe, I'm leaning more and more towards 2-step decoction. It sounds like it'll add some time and effort to my mash, but if I wake up an hour earlier, I could make it work.

Is it really worth it? I've searched HBT and lots of people say it makes a big difference. The problem, though, is that I was planning on brewing 2 batches side-by-side, and this seems like it requires a lot of attention.

I'm torn. I really want to make a great amber lager, but I also have to make my basil IPA before my cinnamon-basil plant dies off...

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Evan, you've got a great thread going here! I'll not bore you with any background and get right to the point. Although Dave Miller's book got my mash eff up, I am a Noonanite through and through. I do about 2/3 of my lagers by decoction. I use a 10 gal Rubbermaid cooler as combo mash/lauter tun. Here is my last procedure from my record book for a Classic American Pilsner. Your decoction would be the same (I checked your recipe ).

16 quarts water at 139 f strke and rest 30 min (125 f) Mash is like thick oatmeal. After 8-10 min into the rest, lift 1st decoction.

1st decoction: Useng a kitchen strainer, lift >1/3, <1/2 heaviest part of mash to decoction kettle. Boost temp ( stir constantly using a lifting motion) ( < 15 min ) to 158 f, rest 20 min. Slowly boost to boiling, boil 20 min. Return to M/L tun ( carefull of hotside airation) stir and bring temp evenly to 150. If you don't use all of the decoction, cool it in a sink with icewarer to 150 and add back to M/L. rest 20 min.

2nd decoction: Lift 1/3 heaviest part to boiler, Boil 20 min. Lots of stirring ( constant ). Return to M/L till mash temp of 158. Rest 60 min. Maintain temp with mini infusions of boiling water.

Mash out decoction: (this is really just to bring the M/L to mashout) Drain the thinnest part of the mash to decoction boiler and boost to boiling. Return to M/L raising evenly to 168 f.

Decoction complete. Total brew time from start to finished cleanup: 8.5 hours.

Good Luck! Have fun!

Well under way. Woke up at 4:15am (I sh*t you not), made coffee and a couple eggs while the sparge water heated up. Mashed in by 5:15 or so. 20 minute protein rest, drew off 1/3 of the mash, brought that to 159f for a 30 minute conversion rest, then boiled it for 25 minutes, and I just added that back to the mash. We're now around 151f for the 35 minute sacc rest. It's nice outside, the sun is just coming up, and I love brewing.

Music:

Sparge heating and mash-in: Johnny Cash, American IV.
Protein and conversion rests: Toots & The Maytals, Funky Kingston
First decoc boil, Sacc rest: The White Stripes, Icky Thump

Evan! said:

Well under way. Woke up at 4:15am (I sh*t you not), made coffee and a couple eggs while the sparge water heated up. Mashed in by 5:15 or so. 20 minute protein rest, drew off 1/3 of the mash, brought that to 159f for a 30 minute conversion rest, then boiled it for 25 minutes, and I just added that back to the mash. We're now around 151f for the 35 minute sacc rest. It's nice outside, the sun is just coming up, and I love brewing.

Music:

Sparge heating and mash-in: Johnny Cash, American IV.
Protein and conversion rests: Toots & The Maytals, Funky Kingston
First decoc boil, Sacc rest: The White Stripes, Icky Thump

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Evan, Dude! ....... Where are you? We are waiting to hear about the brew day!

OldFarmer said:

Evan, Dude! ....... Where are you? We are waiting to hear about the brew day!

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Not very happy right now.

So after an HOUR of the final mash step at 159-162f, I was still testing positive for stray starches. I was already like 4 hours into the mash, and I was tired of waiting around to see if the starches would ever convert. I doubt they would have. Not sure what the hell happened, but somehow, there was some amount of unconverted starches left. Bah.

Finished up the boil in an hour, hit my volumes spot-on. Shooting for 1.051 OG (assumed 81% eff), hit 1.054. So that's good news. What I am not sure of (not a chemistry major) is this: if there are unconverted starches in the wort, does that increase your gravity like sugars do? If so, I might be in trouble, because I've got no idea what portion of my gravity is made up of unfermentable starches. Anyone know the answer?

And salt on the wound: I put the carboy into my lagerator and got it chilled down to 54f, then pitched my rehydrated saflager. As of this morning, zero activity. I've never used dry yeast on a true lager before. I hope it gets going soon. I might take some of my liquid bohemian pilsner yeast and make a starter just in case nothing happens today.

Like I said, not happy.

Wait, was that the sac rest you did 159&#176; - 162&#176;? Usually, the upper limit on a sac rest temp would be 158&#176;.

the_bird said:

Wait, was that the sac rest you did 159° - 162°? Usually, the upper limit on a sac rest temp would be 158°.

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Nope. It was my final conversion step.

Vienna 2x Decoc Sched:

• 20 minutes at 122f
• Draw 1/3 of mash into a separate kettle, heat to 158f, rest for 30 minutes
• Bring to boil, boil for 25 minutes
• Return to mash tun to bring mash temp to 149-152f. Rest for 30 minutes.
• Draw off 1/4 of mash into separate kettle, bring to boil, boil for 25 minutes.
• Return to mash tun to bring mash temp to 158-162f. Rest for 30-60 minutes, or until conversion completes.

I was on that last step, trying to complete starch conversion. My sacc rest was prior to that---about 151f for 65 minutes. I just can't understand why they wouldn't finish converting. I've never ever had a problem with conversion on my traditional mashes.

Question: if fermentation is having trouble starting at 54f, would it do me any good to take it out of the lagerator and let it get up to room temp until fermentation begins?