Pannepot (Old Fisherman's Ale) Clone Thread

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Tall_Yotie

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Stemming off of Saq's thread for the Westvleteren12 clone recipe. Here I hope to get thoughts, suggestions, and experiments for making a brew tasting similar if not the same as this wonderful brew.

A lot of the information I am using is from The Mad Fermentationist's recipe found here as well as conversations I have had with him.

Tasting notes, writing as my wife and I drink:

Smell- dark cherry, a slight sharpness from alcohol. Not so much dark fruit as with a Westvleteren 12 but more bright (Westy smells darker as my wife put it). Dark unsweetened cocoa like Mexican chocolate. No noticeable hops.

Taste- Thyme spice gives a savory note, and the orange peel is apparent as well. Have to know what you are looking for to detect it. Still no sign of hops. Not as heavy as a Westy, "less of a meal" as it were. Sweetness is like light molasses (not the standard dark stuff you put on cornbread. What, you don't put it on cornbread? You should try it!).

So, if I were to sum it up; Take a Westvleteren, lighten up the richness and fruit notes, add a hint of spice, up the Cherry and reduce the Plum. Give it a slightly lighter mouth feel.

Notes from talking with Michael (aka TMF):

-His brew finished too dry, would mash at a higher temp

-Spices too pronounced; would either decrease the spices, or with a higher FG the sweetness may help balance the spices.


So, I have taken TMF's recipe and modified it to what I am thinking of doing:


Batch Size (Gal): 5.00
OG: 1.100
FG: 1.025
ABV: 10%
IBU: 25.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Sugar
--------------
10.00 lbs. French Pilsner
2.75 lbs. German Pilsner
2.75 lbs. Belgian Pilsner
1.50 lbs. Dark Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Special B
0.50 lbs. Flaked Corn
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt

Hops
------
2.00 oz. Willamette (Pellet 4.40% AA) @ 45 min.
1.00 oz. Czech Saaz (Pellet 3.10% AA) @ 15 min.

Spices
--------
3.00 gm Coriander Seed @ 2 min.
5.00 gm Fresh Orange Zest@ 2 min.
1.00 gm Cinnamon @ 2 min.
1.00 gm Thyme @ 2 min.

Yeast
-----
T-58 (used by De Struise)
or
Westmalle yeast (beefier version of T-58) w/ large starter


Mash Schedule
-------------
80 min @ 156F
1qt/lb; 4 gallons approx
5 gallons approx for sparging


Fermentation Schedule
-------------
Pitch at 65F
75° F, 4-5 days. Ramp to temp over a day.
62° F, 2 weeks
50° F, 6 weeks
Bottle/keg, carb
Condition cold for 2 months


Thoughts? Opinions? Input? Let us get this thing going!
 
After listening to some Brew Strong episodes, and the feedback that Kai Troester has given, I'm convinced that it's the difference between the limit of attenuation and actual attenuation, not the absolute final gravity, that affects perceived sweetness.

So, a higher FG may not necessarily be sweeter than a lower FG. This is something I intend to research for myself at some point, though I don't have the time to do so anytime soon.
 
After listening to some Brew Strong episodes, and the feedback that Kai Troester has given, I'm convinced that it's the difference between the limit of attenuation and actual attenuation, not the absolute final gravity, that affects perceived sweetness.

So, a higher FG may not necessarily be sweeter than a lower FG. This is something I intend to research for myself at some point, though I don't have the time to do so anytime soon.

Agreed. I have people claim that my saison is sweet, and it ended at a 1.003, so it is not just the gravity.

That being said, I believe that the unfermented bits will mask other flavors as there is more going on in the beer. Perhaps not the sweetness that is making the spices more subtle, but the fact that they would not be the only thing left to shine.
 
Agree on the FG. Like saq our team is going to start with the Westmalle strain. Here are a couple of thoughts on adjuncts:

Thyme - Since there are many kinds of Thyme, I'd like to suggest using Lemon Thyme in keeping with the Citrus and sweet side of spicing. It has plenty of Thyme flavor but is less acrid than standard English Thyme. It's readily available.

Candi Syrups - We're thinking D-90 would be a better choice than D-180 or D-45 since it has more of a plum palate with some toffee overtones. Much less dark fruit than D-180 and much more fresh fruit than D-45.

Candi Syrup, Inc. will provide D-90 for 5 brewers at shipping charge only, (about $5 for 2 lbs). When Toll_Yottie has the list of 5 we can work out a quick way to get the syrup shipped out.
 
Stemming off of Saq's thread for the Westvleteren12 clone recipe. Here I hope to get thoughts, suggestions, and experiments for making a brew tasting similar if not the same as this wonderful brew.

Grain/Sugar
--------------
10.00 lbs. French Pilsner
2.75 lbs. German Pilsner
2.75 lbs. Belgian Pilsner
1.50 lbs. Dark Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Special B
0.50 lbs. Flaked Corn
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt

Thoughts? Opinions? Input? Let us get this thing going!

Very nice substitutions. I especially liked the Special 'B' over the Mad Ferm's Crystal 120. We've used flaked maize in Hermann Holtrop's Rochefort 8 recipe in the past and we get a "too sticky" palate texture using Flaked Maize. With the Pils we have always considered the Belgian and French too similar to differentiate.

Here's a v. 1.1 suggestion, (and slight simplification) on the fermentables bill:

13.0 lbs. Dingeman's Pilsner
3.00 lbs. German Pilsner
1.50 lbs. D-90 Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Special B
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt

Nothing written in stone...
 
I have been meaning to make this beer for awhile now... so I am in on this one.
What do you think about adding more Candi Sryup if you take out the Flaked Corn? maybe even corn sugar...
 
SUU;

I suppose the lemon sage would work with the orange zest, I may take my wife to a tea or spice shop and see what works best. She has an amazing nose, so will be able to help with this. Also, will have her sniff test the spice mix to figure if the ration needs to be changed.

For the omitting of the flaked maize, I understand where you are at, and though Pannepot does not have the strong mouth / sticking as Westy or Roch does, I still think it has a little bit of it. Anything with spices I believe needs that hint of sticking/coating; it lets you retain the spice flavor between sips, amplifying the flavor throughout the glass. The Roch8 recipe you mentioned I have aging away (at about 5-6 months now) and it is a little stickier than I would want for Pannepot.

12.75 lbs. Dingeman's Pilsner (or mix there of)
3.00 lbs. German Pilsner
1.50 lbs. D-90 Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Special B
0.25 lbs. Flaked Maize
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt

Cutting the Maize down in half to get a hint of it. Also, they actually use it in the brew, so want to keep a bit of the tradition there. For the Pilsner at my LHBS the barrels are German and Belgian, so I am going to do a mix of those two to get the poundage required.

Hell, I might go to the organic shop. Is your syrup Certified Organic? If not that is cool, just checking.

KappaJoe,

Could do that but I prefer to substitute grain for grain. Not a fan of adding sugar to substitute grain, though some styles do gain from it.
 
SUU;

I suppose the lemon sage would work with the orange zest, I may take my wife to a tea or spice shop and see what works best. She has an amazing nose, so will be able to help with this. Also, will have her sniff test the spice mix to figure if the ration needs to be changed.

For the omitting of the flaked maize, I understand where you are at, and though Pannepot does not have the strong mouth / sticking as Westy or Roch does, I still think it has a little bit of it. Anything with spices I believe needs that hint of sticking/coating; it lets you retain the spice flavor between sips, amplifying the flavor throughout the glass. The Roch8 recipe you mentioned I have aging away (at about 5-6 months now) and it is a little stickier than I would want for Pannepot.

12.75 lbs. Dingeman's Pilsner (or mix there of)
3.00 lbs. German Pilsner
1.50 lbs. D-90 Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Special B
0.25 lbs. Flaked Maize
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt

Cutting the Maize down in half to get a hint of it. Also, they actually use it in the brew, so want to keep a bit of the tradition there. For the Pilsner at my LHBS the barrels are German and Belgian, so I am going to do a mix of those two to get the poundage required.

Hell, I might go to the organic shop. Is your syrup Certified Organic? If not that is cool, just checking.

KappaJoe,

Could do that but I prefer to substitute grain for grain. Not a fan of adding sugar to substitute grain, though some styles do gain from it.

Tall, it's great having an olfactory expert on board that's a fan of the brew also! Our Date sugar is not certified organic, (or Kosher), so we can't use the terminology. The beet sugar is 100% organic, (and certified kosher), so from a non-FDA perspective we're 90% organic. BTW, my wife hates "beer" per se but she absolutely loves the Westy 12 clone. I'm hoping she'll become of fan of the Pannepot OFA Quad also. Looking forward to the opinion on the blended spices.

The recipe looks like it is shaping up with some great ideas. Our team here is really looking forward to this recipe.

OT: Yours, saq, gio's, and about 20 others shipment of D-180 is going out on Monday. Should take 3-4 days.
 
Tall, it's great having an olfactory expert on board that's a fan of the brew also! Our Date sugar is not certified organic, (or Kosher), so we can't use the terminology. The beet sugar is 100% organic, (and certified kosher), so from a non-FDA perspective we're 90% organic. BTW, my wife hates "beer" per se but she absolutely loves the Westy 12 clone. I'm hoping she'll become of fan of the Pannepot OFA Quad also. Looking forward to the opinion on the blended spices.

The recipe looks like it is shaping up with some great ideas. Our team here is really looking forward to this recipe.

OT: Yours, saq, gio's, and about 20 others shipment of D-180 is going out on Monday. Should take 3-4 days.

Luckily my wife is a lover of beer, and tends to like the dark roasted malty brews as well as the Belgian styles, with Pannepot and Westy12 a toss-up as her favorite. As we only have room for 1 carboy in our fridge for temp control we are trying to determine which clone to attempt first. Just bottled up a batch of Saq's New World this morning, yielded 54 bottles!

We might just go for the Pannepot clone first, and perhaps mail you (SUU) a couple bottles when all is said and done to get notes.
 
Luckily my wife is a lover of beer, and tends to like the dark roasted malty brews as well as the Belgian styles, with Pannepot and Westy12 a toss-up as her favorite. As we only have room for 1 carboy in our fridge for temp control we are trying to determine which clone to attempt first. Just bottled up a batch of Saq's New World this morning, yielded 54 bottles!

We might just go for the Pannepot clone first, and perhaps mail you (SUU) a couple bottles when all is said and done to get notes.

Sounds good. On a follow-up we can return the favor a few week later. Our corporate address is out on the site under "Contact" but our admin is a Belgian Ale lover and if she detects a beer shipment the box might be shy a bottle when I get it :)

If you need D-90 early let me know. We have plenty of stock now.
 
I don't find Pannepot to have a higher OG/FG than Westy12. Urbains small brewing place is literally just 5 minutes down the street from St Sixtus in Westvleteren and he definitely has taken a big influence from them in his quads.
I agree its not as malty as Westvleteren nor does it quite have the really dark character to it. I need to trade for a bottle of this beer so I can get some more inspiration from it.
When I brewed my take this was the recipe I used.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.54 gal
Estimated OG: 1.091 SG
Estimated Color: 32.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 25.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 75.00 %
0.25 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 1.39 %
0.25 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 1.39 %
0.25 lb Carastan (37.0 SRM) Grain 1.39 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt BYOB (340.0 SRM) Grain 1.39 %
0.25 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 1.39 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (160.0 SRM) Grain 1.39 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.10 %] (90 min) Hops 19.2 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.10 %] (20 min) Hops 6.5 IBU
1.00 gm Cinnamon (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Servomyces (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.00 gm Coriander Seed (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.00 gm Grains of Paradise (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.00 gm Pure Ground Cocoa Powder (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
3.00 oz Pecans (Mash 10.0 min) Misc
5.00 gm Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.00 lb Dark 1 Belgian Candi Syrup (80.0 SRM) Sugar 11.11 %
1.00 lb Dark 2 Belgian Candi Syrup (160.0 SRM) Sugar 5.56 %
1 Pkgs Tripel Reserve (Allagash) [Cultured] Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 15.00 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 22.50 qt of water at 165.0 F 152.0 F

I'd definitely like to try it with the D90, and I may have previously mentioned this beer really needs Westmalle or T58 yeast. The Allagash yeast which I love in blonde Belgian beers was too spicy to really work in this beer the same way.
I also ended up filtering the beer because of the raw cocoa powder, which doesn't dissolve nearly at all. I had a huge sludge in the filter from the cocoa powder when I was done.
 
I just found this thread. I attempted a Pannepot clone a couple of months ago (it's still in secondary and I'll probably bottle in a week or two). Although it's not quite done, I plan on brewing another attempt next weekend. I'll post more tomorrow but here is what I've learned (at least what I think I remember right now):

- Listen to the podcast where they interview one of the De Struisse brewers. He gives a lot of useful information.
- The dark malts they use are chocolate, coffee, and carafa. It's easy to use too much of them and your Pannepot clone and if you do, it will taste more like a stout. There is also a belgian crystal in there (I used CaraMunich). The big change I'll make in my second attempt is to reduce the amounts of the dark malts.
- The four spices are pretty much agreed upon (sweet orange peel, thyme, coriander, cinnamon). The actual amounts are still up for debate but I find that most recipes use so little spices that they are almost unnoticeable.
- To finish at a fairly high gravity of 1.025 I mashed on the warm side (156, I think), and use a rather large percentage of crystal malts (3lb CaraMunich if I remember correctly).
- T-58 is what they use and I see no reason to use anything else. It's a great yeast, its cheap and you won't need to make a starter. It has a wonderfully spicey flavor that I haven't seen with the liquid Belgian yeasts (such as Wyeast 1762, 3787, 1214, etc)
- I used only D2 belgian candi syrup but I think De Struise uses a mix of dark and light candy sugars. Next time I plan on using half D2 and half amber candi syrup.
- The base malt is Belgian pilsner.
- like most belgian you can let this ferment warm. I pitched in the mid-60s and let it warm up and held it at a warm temperature for 2 weeks before racking to a secondary and cold crashing it. I don't remember the exact temps, I'll look it up tomorrow.

I used an enhanced decoction mash with a protein rest at 122 and sacchrification rest at 156. Hops should be bramling cross and hallertauer MF but it doesn't really matter so much for this beer so I substituted kent goldings and hallertauer hersbrucker.
 
Saq,

How did your brew turn out in comparison to the real deal? What adjustments would you suggest making? I would rather avoid adding the pecans and cocoa powder. The chocolate flavor seemed to be more of a suggestion of it, not something that came very apparent.

Gio,

Thanks for the notes, very informative. Could you post up your recipe when you have a chance? It would be great to be able to compare what everyone has used.


Does anyone know of a source to get this beer in the States (West Coast preferred)? The bottles I have are few, and unfortunately after a heat wave they lost some flavor, so tasting notes for me are based on a low-quality bottle and memory. I can get Pannepuet Old Monk's, but that uses just plain sugar and no candi syrup.
 
Saq,

How did your brew turn out in comparison to the real deal? What adjustments would you suggest making? I would rather avoid adding the pecans and cocoa powder. The chocolate flavor seemed to be more of a suggestion of it, not something that came very apparent.

Gio,

Thanks for the notes, very informative. Could you post up your recipe when you have a chance? It would be great to be able to compare what everyone has used.


Does anyone know of a source to get this beer in the States (West Coast preferred)? The bottles I have are few, and unfortunately after a heat wave they lost some flavor, so tasting notes for me are based on a low-quality bottle and memory. I can get Pannepuet Old Monk's, but that uses just plain sugar and no candi syrup.

We tried 3 in-state LHBS's on Friday. Most carry only the Monk's but no OFA. Ive been looking online for the real deal. The Belgian Shop has it 330 ml on sale here:

http://shop.belgianshop.com/acatalog/info_3_BB30083Z.html

with the 750ml Reserva OFA here:

http://shop.belgianshop.com/acatalog/info_4_BB30048Z.html

They both appear to be OFA but I would call first to make sure.
 
Soooo pricey! Was hoping to get it for cheaper not via eBay. Belgian Shop has good stuff, but at a definite premium.

To those that have tasted Pannepot, with the lower dark fruit tones do you think it is a lighter candi syrup or just less of it? I still am using Westy as a baseline.

Heck, would it be a good idea to take the Westy recipe that either Saq or SUU has, change the yeast, add spices, and switch the candi syrup to a lighter one? Perhaps a little chocolate malt to get that cocoa edge?

And as far as the OG/FG, from my research it is 1.100 and 10.25., so that is what I am going to aim for.
 
Heck, would it be a good idea to take the Westy recipe that either Saq or SUU has, change the yeast, add spices, and switch the candi syrup to a lighter one? Perhaps a little chocolate malt to get that cocoa edge?

Tempting to start with a known winner. Saq, did you drop by De Struise Brouwers on your last visit? Just curious how similar the base recipe might be with a Westvleteren.

The beer reviews of OFA Reserva all indicate some dark fruit nose and palate so I think anything less than D-90 or DarkCandi's D might miss a flavor point. Given the dark fruit palate from D-180 we're going to start with the darkest syrup first.

With the recipes varying more with this one we could consider fanning out and trying the best of our top two or three recipes and then swap for a taste vote. We're likely going to lean toward the minimal recipe and build from there.
 
Agreed on the minimal. It is easier to figure out what you need to add rather than remove.

Hell, if my Saq recipe brew was ready to drink or the recipe you (SUU) did, I would boil up the spices, cool it, and add a bit to a freshly cracked bottle and see what it does. Or, have a glass shot glass with the spice water, cooled, near the glass to you can smell the spices as you drink. Might not tell too much, but a quick easy experiment.
 
Saq,

How did your brew turn out in comparison to the real deal? What adjustments would you suggest making? I would rather avoid adding the pecans and cocoa powder. The chocolate flavor seemed to be more of a suggestion of it, not something that came very apparent.

Gio,

Thanks for the notes, very informative. Could you post up your recipe when you have a chance? It would be great to be able to compare what everyone has used.


Does anyone know of a source to get this beer in the States (West Coast preferred)? The bottles I have are few, and unfortunately after a heat wave they lost some flavor, so tasting notes for me are based on a low-quality bottle and memory. I can get Pannepuet Old Monk's, but that uses just plain sugar and no candi syrup.

Mine came decently close, I had some organic raw cacao powder I wanted to add and I've started adding pecans to the mash of a quad now and then because it adds an awesome flavor. The biggest problem I had with mine was the wrong yeast choice. The allagash yeat is a bold peppery, spicey which was totally the wrong yeast for what was going on.
I didn't find any of the normal Pannepot but I did find Pannepot Reserva which is awesome, which I ordered 4 of yesterday :) http://www.wallywine.com/p-74546-de-struise-pannepot-reserva-limit-4-bottles-per-customer-330ml.aspx

The Grand Reserva is even better, I had that at Delerium Cafe in Brussels and its pretty much the best beer I've ever had.
 
So.... who wants to do 14mo French Oak barrel aging?

"I've started adding pecans to the mash of a quad now and then because it adds an awesome flavor"

So does it seem to add to making it more like Pannepot? Asking as it is easy to mess with a recipe to tune to one's tastes, though diverging from what the original aim was. My concern with your recipe is that is seems to have a lot going on in it, and was hoping we could figure out a simplification. Same question regarding the cocoa.

SUU says his Westy12 recipe with the debittered malt is nearly dead on, and that is simple like your Old World recipe, though your New World seemed to have gotten better marks.

I have a bottle of Reserve that I was given in Brugges, but I fear it has lost its luster due to the heat wave that fried my Pannepot and Westvleteren reserve. Will crack it open for a special occasion and see how it fairs.

As far as your recipe being close, you think it mostly was the yeast? As these Belgian ales tend to take a while to mature I want to make sure we all go into this with the best formed recipe and plan as we can at the time.
 
So.... who wants to do 14mo French Oak barrel aging?

"I've started adding pecans to the mash of a quad now and then because it adds an awesome flavor"

So does it seem to add to making it more like Pannepot? Asking as it is easy to mess with a recipe to tune to one's tastes, though diverging from what the original aim was. My concern with your recipe is that is seems to have a lot going on in it, and was hoping we could figure out a simplification. Same question regarding the cocoa.

SUU says his Westy12 recipe with the debittered malt is nearly dead on, and that is simple like your Old World recipe, though your New World seemed to have gotten better marks.

I have a bottle of Reserve that I was given in Brugges, but I fear it has lost its luster due to the heat wave that fried my Pannepot and Westvleteren reserve. Will crack it open for a special occasion and see how it fairs.

As far as your recipe being close, you think it mostly was the yeast? As these Belgian ales tend to take a while to mature I want to make sure we all go into this with the best formed recipe and plan as we can at the time.

Reasonable $90 20L white oak barrel: http://www.barrelsonline.com/BrowseProducts.aspx?DepID=4

We might spring for it given saq's review of the Reserva. In blind taste reviews Pannepot always ranks closely with Westvleteren 12.
 
Based on input so far here is another evolution of one of our recipes. We're thinking to do a full 10.50 gal batch and split it, (1 with Westmalle and one with T-58).

Here are some notes. Our SRM compared to the specs from BeerAdvocate is a bit low. My BLAM is under something or my kids are using it as a frisby so I can't use it at the moment. Do we increase chocolate malt, carafa, change the syrups or a weighted increase of all three? I am leaning toward D-180 for the dark fruit and hue. I liked the hops authenticity gio mentioned so they are in. Using Tinseth for pellets the IBU's come up exactly.

Again, nothing in stone here, still an evolving baseline on where our interests are driving us for the first trial.


Pannepot OFA (Variation 1.2)

SPECIFICATIONS
OG - 1.100
FG - 1.025
ABV - 10%
SRM - 50
IBU - 27

WATER
8.0 Gallons

FERMENTABLES
12.75 lbs. Dingeman's Pilsner
3.00 lbs. German Pilsner
1.50 lbs. D-180 Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Special B
0.25 lbs. Flaked Maize
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Chocolate Malt (Belgian, British, or German?)

HOPS
2.00 Bramling Cross 6.4% (60 min)
1.00 Hallaertau MittelFrüh 4.2% (30 min)

SPICES
3.00 gm Coriander Seed @ 2 min.
5.00 gm Fresh Orange Zest@ 2 min. (sour orange or sweet?)
1.00 gm Cinnamon @ 2 min.
1.00 gm Thyme @ 2 min.

YEAST
T-58 (batch split #1)
WLP 530 (Batch split #2)

OTHER
1 cap servomyces

METHOD
Single infusion mash, (no sparge), @ 156F 80 minutes. 90 min boil. Servomyces. Syrup at flameout. Aged in either surface calulated white oak slats, (charred?) or barrel aged.
 
For the blind tasting ranking, that means they are quality near the same, though flavor does not have to match. Though they are in deed brewed a few miles away, so some influence would not be far fetched.

I like the look of that recipe. Again, I like the idea of being able to add spices and grains if needed rather than figuring out what to avoid and remove. I would initially go without oaking for the same reason; one less flavor to fight around to see if we have the brew right. OFA I figure is the same as the reserve, minus the oak aging.

My take on the recipe will be different hops, as I do not have access to the ones mentioned, and I am a fan of the supporting of local businesses. I would go with the T-58 for my recipe, and the fermentation schedule I outlined in my first post.

There is a '?' on your spices for sweet or sour orange zest. I am just going to go with the oranges I have at the local market. My wife is actually suggesting mandarin orange, so may do that to see what happens.

I like the fall-back to the D-180 syrup. Though there was more cherry than darker fruit and plum, there was still some there with caramel notes. Probably just less than the Westy, and spices will bring out the other sharper notes.

You have no sparge mentioned. Was that from my recipe notes? I may have my terms wrong, I say single infusion as in no decoction mashing. I would still sparge, as I need it for efficiency points.
 
If I were to go for just a Pannepot clone I'd drop the cocoa and pecans from my recipe.
Getting the right yeast is definitely important, T-58 or Westmalle would be the only ones I'd consider.
I think a FG of 1.025 is too high, I know Pannepot has a higher FG but I think it would be around 1.018.
The key with the spices is going to be restraint, as they are very subtle and are almost not detectable. I think the orange peel could go either way sweet or bitter.
If you go the specialty grains route (which is more or less what Urbain does with Pannepot) you don't want (or need) to do a decoction.
 
...I think a FG of 1.025 is too high, I know Pannepot has a higher FG but I think it would be around 1.018.
The key with the spices is going to be restraint, as they are very subtle and are almost not detectable. I think the orange peel could go either way sweet or bitter...

Here are the stats I got from BeerAdvocate:

EBC:99, IBU:27, OG:1100, FG:1025, ABV:10%
Hops: Bramling Cross, Hallaertau MF

I have an Imp Stout that had an OG of 1.112 and an FG of 1.030; it read as rich, not sweet (damned good brew, my wife's favorite of the ones I have done). Therefor I am not too concerned with a higher FG. I say go with what you want for the OG/FG, just try to keep the ABV the same.

I see no reason not to go with T-58. It is what they use, and if we have a fermentation schedule, why mess with the yeast? SUU, if you want to do a split batch by all means go for it.

If I had the capabilities as far as temp control goes, I would do two 2.5g batches, but with different spicing amounts or ratios. Or, just do a control batch of the recipe so I know what the brew tastes like without the spices.

Saq; would you want to brew the recipe that SUU and I have been kicking back and forth, or the recipe you posted? Trying to keep track of the variables we are hitting.
 
My recipe looked something like this:

13.5 lb Belgian Pilsner
3.0 lb CaraMunich III
0.3 lb Carafa II
0.15 lb Chocolate Malt
0.15 lb Coffee Malt
1.0 lb Flaked Maize
2.0 lb D2 Belgian Candi Syrup

OG: 1.099 FG: 1.025
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons

Spices:
I have to check my notes for the exact amounts of the spices, but I believe it was about
0.4oz Coriander
0.5oz Sweet Orange Peel
? Thyme (about 1/2tsp I think)
? Cinnamon (about 1tsp I think)

Hops:
3.5 AAU Northern Brewer @ 80 min
7 AAU Columbus @10 min

Mash:
Enhanced double decoction mash with a protein rest at 122 and sacchrification at 156.

I plan on brewing this again with some changes:
- De Struise uses candi sugar and candi syrup so I might use half D2 and half amber candi syrup like I do in my Rochefort clone.
- It's way too dark and bitter. 0.6 lb of dark malts is too much. I'll probably reduce the amounts of the carafa, coffee, and chocolate malts, and possibly use belgian debittered instead of carafa. Maybe 0.2lb Carafa, and 0.1lb each of Chocolate and Coffee. Or maybe even less. I might reduce the CaraMunich too and increase the Pilsner.
- The fermentation went well. I pitched cool and let it warm up to the mid 70s and then held in a warm temperature for almost two weeks. I then racked to a secondary and cold crashed it and cold conditioned at 50 for 8 weeks. I'll repitch more yeast when I bottle.

De Struise uses 4% sugar and 4% syrup and they get it from http://www.belgosuc.be/EN/index.html
 
My recipe looked something like this:

I plan on brewing this again with some changes:
- De Struise uses candi sugar and candi syrup so I might use half D2 and half amber candi syrup like I do in my Rochefort clone.
- It's way too dark and bitter. 0.6 lb of dark malts is too much. I'll probably reduce the amounts of the carafa, coffee, and chocolate malts, and possibly use belgian debittered instead of carafa. Maybe 0.2lb Carafa, and 0.1lb each of Chocolate and Coffee. Or maybe even less. I might reduce the CaraMunich too and increase the Pilsner.
- The fermentation went well. I pitched cool and let it warm up to the mid 70s and then held in a warm temperature for almost two weeks. I then racked to a secondary and cold crashed it and cold conditioned at 50 for 8 weeks. I'll repitch more yeast when I bottle.

De Struise uses 4% sugar and 4% syrup and they get it from http://www.belgosuc.be/EN/index.html

gio, we've never brewed this so in your opinion how much would you consider a good balanced weight of black malt?

I need to order a few to get a bead on flavors and ingredients.

Tall, it sounds like we have 3 distinct recipes sizing up. They all sound good. Looking forward to the taste testing :)
 
Aye. We have a Saq, Gio, and SUU/Tall recipe. The first two with working on previous attempts, the last being gathered from sources and worked out as a fresh recipe. Should be quite fun to see how it works out.

Assuming we are using your (SUU's) candi syrups, all these brews should be hitting maturity and tasting readiness at the same time. That is, if all of us are ready to brew this up the first chance we get, which I know I am.
 
i am in on the bottle exchange if you want another batch to try... SUU... sent you a PM with my sugar order...

Thanks
 
Recipe looks good to me. Special B is certainly the way to go for the crystal, that was my plan until I started milling and realized I didn't have any. Hope it turns out well..

I really liked the way the half of my batch that I added cherries/brett/oak to turned out, the clean half was just too big/dry/thin for my tastes.
 
Recipe looks good to me. Special B is certainly the way to go for the crystal, that was my plan until I started milling and realized I didn't have any. Hope it turns out well..

I really liked the way the half of my batch that I added cherries/brett/oak to turned out, the clean half was just too big/dry/thin for my tastes.

Glad to see you on here!
My aim is to avoid ending too dry like you did before.
For the spices, I will measure them all out, and make a judgment call on brewing day if it seems like it is too much or not.
 
Recipe looks good to me. Special B is certainly the way to go for the crystal, that was my plan until I started milling and realized I didn't have any. Hope it turns out well..

I really liked the way the half of my batch that I added cherries/brett/oak to turned out, the clean half was just too big/dry/thin for my tastes.

Hey MadFerm, your reputation precedes you. Also glad to have you aboard!
 
Glad to see you on here!
My aim is to avoid ending too dry like you did before.
For the spices, I will measure them all out, and make a judgment call on brewing day if it seems like it is too much or not.

Sounds good, you can always add more to the secondary or make a tea and add it at bottling to boost the flavor.

Good luck.

Hey MadFerm, your reputation precedes you. Also glad to have you aboard!

I love talking beer, and this seems to be the best place to do it (I think my co-workers are sick of hearing about my barrels/bugs/blog).
 
Here is my take on the recipe... will be brewing next Saturday..

OG - 1.100
FG - 1.030
IBU - 27

14.0 lbs. Pilsner
1.0 lbs. D-180 Candi Syrup
1.0 lbs. Piloncillo Sugar (orginal has cane sugar)
8.0oz. Special B
6.0oz Chocolate Malt (maybe a blend of chocolate/coffee malt)
4.0oz. Carafa III Special (more for color)
4.0oz. Flaked Maize

1.0oz S. Golding (45 min)
0.5oz Hallaertau (15 min)

15.00 gm Fresh Orange Zest@ 0 min.
10.00 gm Coriander Seed @ 0 min.
4.00 gm Cinnamon @ 0 min.
4.00 gm Thyme @ 0 min.

T-58 Yeast

Pannepot.jpg
 
Recipe looks good!

From the label, awesome find by the way:

it does call for candi sugar and cane sugar. It uses coffee and chocolate malt, and flaked corn along with the carafa and pilsner malt. Sweet orange peel along with cinnamon, thyme and coriander.

I would use coffee malt, but my LHBS doesn't seem to carry any, unless it is under a different name. You seem to be going heavier on the specialty malts than the recipe SUU and I have been bouncing around. I may do a mix of the dark candy syrup and the cane sugar (1 lb each) and see what it does.

I will post up a revised recipe later when I have the chance (quick lunch post during work here!).
 
Coffee malt is pretty close to pale chocolate if you can get that.
 
Cool, I think I can get pale chocolate. That and standard chocolate malt and I should be fine.

So, earlier in this thread it was mentioned that the sugar and candi sugar is 4% / 4% from what Pannepot actually uses; that means we would need a 25lb grain bill (23lb grain, 2lb adjunct sugar).Seems a bit massive, and to size the batch size up to that it seems the 1lb of syrup would be too far diluted. It would need to be a 7 gallon batch. So I figure a 5%/5% is good enough.

SUU, any opinion on taking the 1.5lb Dark Candi Syrup to 1lb with 1lb cane sugar?
 
99 EBC is dark.... so I increased the dark malt per the recipe above to get close to the color.

I also think increasing the spices alittle (from Oldsock orginal recipe) will help compete with the high alcohol content, belgian yeast, and long aging.... not sure if I have over did it though
 
Oldsock though had stated that the spices were already a bit too strong. I figure with the higher FG it will help. Not trying to argue you away from anything, just stating why I am sticking with my spice levels, maybe even modifying them.

Though, I see why also it would be good to increase the specialty grains with the decrease of the dark syrup. Helps make up for a bit lost dark flavors. I am going to mess around with this a bit, see what comes to fruition. Once I have the syrup in hand I will finalize my recipe.
 
Aye. We have a Saq, Gio, and SUU/Tall recipe. The first two with working on previous attempts, the last being gathered from sources and worked out as a fresh recipe. Should be quite fun to see how it works out.

Assuming we are using your (SUU's) candi syrups, all these brews should be hitting maturity and tasting readiness at the same time. That is, if all of us are ready to brew this up the first chance we get, which I know I am.

Great. Tall, fire the starter pistol when you're ready :) I have saq's, gio's, and your address when you're ready for the D-180. I'll mail out another set of 2lbs each. Everyone has D-180 on the way from the Promotional so you can begin early when it arrives in the next few days, (then you can replenish with the new set for the Westy 12 clone). If you have it on hand you may also want to compare the use of D2. We've done a lot of comparison so far so we'll use the D-180 solely.
 
Here is my take on the recipe... will be brewing next Saturday..

OG - 1.100
FG - 1.030
IBU - 27

14.0 lbs. Pilsner
1.0 lbs. D-180 Candi Syrup
1.0 lbs. Piloncillo Sugar (orginal has cane sugar)
8.0oz. Special B
6.0oz Chocolate Malt (maybe a blend of chocolate/coffee malt)
4.0oz. Carafa III Special (more for color)
4.0oz. Flaked Maize

1.0oz S. Golding (45 min)
0.5oz Hallaertau (15 min)

15.00 gm Fresh Orange Zest@ 0 min.
10.00 gm Coriander Seed @ 0 min.
4.00 gm Cinnamon @ 0 min.
4.00 gm Thyme @ 0 min.

T-58 Yeast

kappa,

Your order went out today Priority. Should be 3 days to you. BTW, I like your take on the recipe. Looking forward to the taste trials.

Tall,

It looks like we have 4 recipes in all. saq, gio, Tall, and Kappa. This is going to be a great trial.
 
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