Worth losing a customer over a pack of old yeast?

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All the above is especially true if you consider the customer may hold that yeast for up to about a month in his/her own fridge. I often buy ingredients and don't have time to brew for a while. I think it's fair if the vendor assumes about a month of additional storage.

I just pitched Roeselare that was about 4-5 months old. From what I understand, this is even more critical as you are not supposed to use a starter and an aged Activator packet will have different blend percentages than the original packaging. In the end, I still used it - and had an extra long lag - and may get an extra sour beer (or at least a different sour beer) on the other end.

Aside from that, I don't really care about the age of yeast. I also try to use dry yeast whenever possible - it's cheaper and just as good for most neutral or British styles... and they last for years in the fridge.
 
Like buying milk. The store can sell it right up to the sell by date, however, most stores manage their inventory so that the milk they're selling is no where close to the sell by date. When I've gotten yeast from MoreBeer! it is almost always less than a month old. The yeast I get from my LHBS is sometimes a couple months old. I want the freshest yeast possible, that said, I've bought yeast and stuck it in the fridge for a few months before using it. I've never had an issue from using old yeast.

At the LHBS I'm just happy they have so many varieties so I understand that for them to do that some of it might sit there for a while. But I would tend to favor an online retailer that typically ships very fresh yeast.
 
I'd like to go out on a limb and say that the yeast calcs cannot possibly predict, within a reasonable amount, the actual viability of all yeast.

For starters (pun intended), strains behave differently from each other. Some may be less resilient to temperature. Others not so much.

As well, they cannot know the conditions the yeast actually had to go through before being pitched. It could have been a nice cool refrigerated jaunt from factory to store, or a hellish journey through Death Valley mid summmer.

They very likely sampled maybe different yeasts and calculated a reasonable assumption and erred on the side of caution.

Just because a yeast is 3 months old doesn't mean that it has the same viability as a package of yeast sent to another customer. Anything could have happened during any shipment.
 
For those asking about what the cutoff point is - typically with an ale yeast I might not have been as concerned, but with a lager or hybrid yeast (which many call 2112) the yeast count needed is a lot higher so the older the yeast the more screwed you are. I think we can agree not all yeast types/beer styles are created equal.


Rev.
 
For those asking about what the cutoff point is - typically with an ale yeast I might not have been as concerned, but with a lager or hybrid yeast (which many call 2112) the yeast count needed is a lot higher so the older the yeast the more screwed you are. I think we can agree not all yeast types/beer styles are created equal.


Rev.

I used the 'lager' selection on yeastcalc to figure out the starter sizes I posted. Set the production date about 5 months back and went through the settings. If it was an ale yeast, the starter sizes could/would be smaller.

As far as actual viability of the yeast, you'll know if it's still usable with the first starter. If it doesn't at least show some sign of activity within 24-36 hours, chances are it's kaput. I had 10 month old vials of yeast take about 24 hours to show activity, finishing about 24 hours later. That was the first step, the rest took off much faster due to more 'young' yeast cells being present. You can also offset some of your concerns by either dating the pack older, or setting the viability or original cell count lower.

I typically aim to have a bit more yeast cells with a finished starter routine. That way, even if the original count is a bit low, I'll still be in good shape. So far, this has worked very well for me, with older yeast packs.
 
As far as actual viability of the yeast, you'll know if it's still usable with the first starter. If it doesn't at least show some sign of activity within 24-36 hours, chances are it's kaput.

I use a stir plate. Ever since doing so I don't know how to tell the activity. Without the stir plate, and with an airlock (which I no longer user because it's worse off) I would see activity - either via the no longer used airlock or via visible fermentation signs like Krausen. How does one see activity with an active stir plate? It's always in motion so no krausen ever forms on my starters.


Rev.
 
I use a stir plate. Ever since doing so I don't know how to tell the activity. Without the stir plate, and with an airlock (which I no longer user because it's worse off) I would see activity - either via the no longer used airlock or via visible fermentation signs like Krausen. How does one see activity with an active stir plate? It's always in motion so no krausen ever forms on my starters.


Rev.

I base it on color. When it's tan and milky the yeast are in suspension. When you can see some streaks of darker beer the yeast are trying to flocculate, that's when I turn my stirplate off.

I might do a pictorial on this, was thinking about it the other day.
 
As mentioned by Gameface, color is one indicator. Another is foam forming on the spinning wort. Once the foam is gone, chances are it's done. Some strains will clump up a lot when finished, and be swirling in clumps. You just learn what to watch for with the different strains you use. Most of the time, the starter will be lighter in color due to the yeast clumping (at least some) and spinning in it.

If you have a large enough flask, that you don't need to use fermcap to prevent foaming over, you'll get more sign.

I would guestimate that the first step would be finished in 24-48 hours from when you start the bar spinning. Second should only take ~24 hours, same as the third. I would plan on 24 hours of cold crashing between steps (longer for less flocculating yeast strains). Then carefully decant the spent starter before pouring fresh starter wort into the flask. This is where it helps to have a decent sized pot (that you can use). I usually use my 8qt pot for 2-3L of starter wort. Under 2L I have a smaller pot that does a good job. Also, a cold water/ice bath in the sink will chill it well enough. Especially since you're chilling no more than 1.5L of starter wort at a time. :rockin:

BTW, you would need a 50L starter (on a stirplate) to get the same amount of yeast from the three steps I outlined. Kind of insane when you think about it, and I see why you were a bit pissed off at the start of the thread. Now you can do it using under 400g of DME (390) and a total of 3.9L of starter wort. Oh, and 50L is about 13.3 gallons, and is also the size of one of my sanke keg fermenting vessels. :eek: That's a LOT of starter wort to make.
 
@Golddiggie - I wasn't pissed, I just really didn't expect such a resistance to store credit and thought it not worth losing a customer. If I were in their place I would've said I will give credit but in the future the customer would either need to call to check the date or put a note in the order. Problem solved.

Anyhow, the final update is after two emails communicating with the person on the phone they've given me store credit. I didn't keep pressing or anything, they reached out to me and after a small discussion explaining both our points he decided to email me and let me know he gave me store credit - which I greatly appreciate.


Rev.
 
Nah, the time involved in a 3 step starter simply isn't worth it for me. Actually ordered replacement yeast and the yeast for my next batch from NorthernBrewer and it will arrive next week. Didn't want to chance anything weird on my first faux Pilsner style beer.


Rev.
 
I work in a LHBS. How I would handle this is simple. I would tell you to "smack" the smack pack after letting it warm to room temp and see if it inflated in 24 hours. If it inflates you are at max potential of that yeast pack to pitch to a starter. If it doesn't inflate or there is some other issue with "It smells like a container of boiled leeches left in the sun" (Chance of infection) I would offer to replace the yeast pack free of charge or a different yeast pack if I did not have a fresher one or give in store credit.

I am pretty sure those yeast calcs are not accounting for letting the smack pack inflate and as you stated "Wyeast guarantees them for 6 months from the date printed". That is the guarantee that they make for 100 billion yeast cells... or enough for a 1.052 OG, 5 gallon batch...

I get this ALL THE TIME in the store. 99.8% of the time there is ZERO issue...
 
Actually, they don't guarantee 100 billion yeast cells, they start with that and openly say in their documentation that viability goes down from the package date.


Rev.
 
I know I'm getting in late in the game here, but when I order yeast online I always call ahead and see what the dates are on the packs. If I don't like it, I'll wait for a fresh shipment or go elsewhere. That way you know what you're getting before you place the order.

As for the starter dillema, why not brew a small batch of 1-2 gallons and then use the cake for your 5 gallon batch? That's assuming you have enough ingredients. That way you get more beer and the yeast you need all in one run.
 
Nah, the time involved in a 3 step starter simply isn't worth it for me. Actually ordered replacement yeast and the yeast for my next batch from NorthernBrewer and it will arrive next week. Didn't want to chance anything weird on my first faux Pilsner style beer.


Rev.

If you're not brewing until next weekend, then you have plenty of time for the three step starter program. Even with a new pack, you'll want at least one starter (most likely).
 
If you often miss your brew day because your ingredients don't arrive on time then either your scheduling or your expectations may be too aggresive.

With all due respect, this doesn't happen often but if I place an order on a Friday or Saturday (times which their shipping dept is working) I don't see why it would take to Tuesday evening to ship my order which then wouldn't arrive till Monday of the following week when the company is only six states away. Maybe you think I'm some kind of whining baby but please understand when one orders from other places way farther away, like California which is the opposite side of the country, through another company and the order gets to me in less than a business week via the same shipping method you kind of become accustomed to a certain status quo. It's not UPS, if the company takes 2-3 business days to ship an order that leads to a variable that even one day can shift everything around. The other company this post is about gets my orders to me in *three* days from the day I ordered. A big improvement because they ship no later than the day after I order.


Rev.
 
To the original question.....

Being in the retail business myself, I would say the retailer was ok with what he shipped you per the manufacturer specifications, BUT.... If the customer called with a concern over the older date on the pack, i would have offered to send a new fresher pack.
Is $3.00 or $4.00(retail cost) worth losing a potential new customer? Absolutely not. A simple " I'm sorry you weren't happy, I'll send another one out asap. If there is anything else we can do , let us know", (and a few bucks shipping), will help make a customer for life. The other side of the coin is this what's happening right here. In these tight economic times, you can't afford to lose a customer over literally a couple bucks.
 
Rev2010, Can I send you some free yeast? PM me an address and which strains you usually use. I am here to help.


Forrest

This is one of the many reasons why Austin Homebrew Supply is so amazing. This makes me happy even though I am not the one getting free yeast. Much props to AHS!
 
Rev2010, Can I send you some free yeast? PM me an address and which strains you usually use. I am here to help.


Forrest

Wow, talk about incredible!! Thanks for the offer Forrest. I've PM'd you my info.

I suggested perhaps Forrest just pick some yeast randomly to send, this way I can wind up possibly brewing something I've never done before. I could make a recipe, order the ingredients from Austin, and make a thread about making the beer. Sounds fun no? :D


Rev.
 
Wow, talk about incredible!! Thanks for the offer Forrest. I've PM'd you my info.

I suggested perhaps Forrest just pick some yeast randomly to send, this way I can wind up possibly brewing something I've never done before. I could make a recipe, order the ingredients from Austin, and make a thread about making the beer. Sounds fun no? :D


Rev.

This thread is a bunch of flap over nothing. Plan your brews better next time, and always use a starter. Just my 2c....
And, yeah, Forrest is a great guy.
 
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