lactobacillus and O2

Finally brewing the Berliner Weisse in the morning. Planning on pitching the lacto culture tomorrow and a packet of US-05 a few days hence. Small beer, shooting for 1.032-1.035, won't cry at 1.030.

How should I oxygenate the wort? I've got the reg/red tank setup, I usually do 90 seconds. Half of that? Why does something in the back of my head say that the lacto doesn't want O2?

Sause, Landhoney, 'Topia, and all you other sour-beer lovers... what say you?

the_bird said:

Why does something in the back of my head say that the lacto doesn't want O2?
Sause, Landhoney, 'Topia, and all you other sour-beer lovers... what say you?

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Pedio doesn't like any, but Lacto can use it in smaller amounts. Just looking, found Vinny's presentation:"

Lacto can ferment both in the presence or absence of oxygen but prefers reduced levels.Lacto is lighter on the palate and is more tart and tangy than sourness derived from Pediococcus.The Lactobacillus commonly used by brewers, Lactobacillus delbrueckii produces both lactic acid as well as carbon dioxide as a by product of fermentation.For the most part, Lactobacillus will cease to reproduce at a pHof around 3.8- that is pretty sour though!Like most gram-positive bacteria, the presence of certain hop acids will slow the growth of most Lactobacillus."

Also, I got my Wyeast VSS Berliner Blend today, actually ordered one online thinking my LHBS wouldn't have it, but going today they did, so I bought it anyway. Now I'll have two!

Beauty! Sounds like my gut (cut my normal O2 in half) ought to be pretty good.

I've got a question that may or may not be sensible; I've never brewed with lacto. If the yeast and bacteria are blended then this is a mute question but if you can pitch at different times would it be better to oxygenate your wort as normal so that your yeast has the best possible nutrient sources and wait for fermentation to really take off. As the Safale US-05 begins to release carbon dioxide and the wort/beer changes from oxygen rich to oxygen poor as the level of carbon dioxide increases, then pitch the lactobacillus. Wouldn't that pitching scheme take advantage of the best possible environment for the yeast and bacteria?

runhard said:

I've got a question that may or may not be sensible; I've never brewed with lacto. If the yeast and bacteria are blended then this is a mute question but if you can pitch at different times would it be better to oxygenate your wort as normal so that your yeast has the best possible nutrient sources and wait for fermentation to really take off. As the Safale US-05 begins to release carbon dioxide and the wort/beer changes from oxygen rich to oxygen poor as the level of carbon dioxide increases, then pitch the lactobacillus. Wouldn't that pitching scheme take advantage of the best possible environment for the yeast and bacteria?

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I think that would be a fine idea, but the idea with the_bird's pitching schedule is to give the 'slowish' Lacto a head start so the beer can get sour. The earlier you pitch the lacto the more sour the beer will be, that's the idea anyway. I did the pitching schedule you suggested with the 'more sour' Pedio because it really doesn't like O2. It was not a BW, but I pitched an ale strain, waited ~2 days for most/all of the O2 to be used and pitched the lacto.

landhoney said:

I think that would be a fine idea, but the idea with the_bird's pitching schedule is to give the 'slowish' Lacto a head start so the beer can get sour. The earlier you pitch the lacto the more sour the beer will be, that's the idea anyway. I did the pitching schedule you suggested with the 'more sour' Pedio because it really doesn't like O2. It was not a BW, but I pitched an ale strain, waited ~2 days for most/all of the O2 to be used and pitched the lacto.

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Thanks for the info. I knew there was something I didn't quite understand. I guess the lactobacillus delbrueckii is 'slowish' because it's optimal temperature is near 104°F and when used at ale fermentation temperatures it just pokes along. I wonder if one of the strains of lactobacillus used for making buttermilk or sour cream might work since they have optimal temperatures that are much lower.

Land, I saw someone else mention in another thread the idea of tossing some maltodextrine in the boil. Give the bacteria something to eat that the yeast can't, especially if I use a quick-acting yeast like US-05. Takes this a little away from the exact historical approach, but you think that would work?

the_bird said:

Land, I saw someone else mention in another thread the idea of tossing some maltodextrine in the boil. Give the bacteria something to eat that the yeast can't, especially if I use a quick-acting yeast like US-05. Takes this a little away from the exact historical approach, but you think that would work?

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I think that method may be used for pLambics and such that require a long time to finish/mature, giving them more to eat(more sour/funk) over the ~year or so. My concern with using that method with the BW is that it may take the Lacto a longer time to finish the malto than you would like or would be necessary(you can make a good BW without doing this). I have no idea, which is why I underlined 'may', but I wouldn't try this method in a BW without further research on how long it would take Lacto to eat the malto. Otherwise it could take too long to finish, or have too much body, or cause bottle bombs b/c there was malto left at bottling, etc.
Does that make sense?

Yup, it does, makes pefect sense. I have no real idea how lacto acts; I'm curious to see how it ferments (will it form a krausen?) before I add the US-05. I'll go straightforward this time (looks like I may be pushed back a weekend, wifey's under the weather).