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isac777

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I live in the great state of washington and the other night at dinner I ordered a boundry bay ipa brewed in bellingham for $4.50. After tasting it I said to my wife that my ipa is better, fresher with more aroma and better flavor. So she says if your beer is better and all of our friends say how good it is then what if you were to sell it wouldn't it do good? And if so how much could you sell it for a glass? (16oz.) I thought it could sell and wholesale probably I dunno for $2.00 a glass, so for every five gallons thats 40 pints. I brew 10g at a time so that is $160.00 minus around $70.00 for ingredients and propane around $10 thats $80 profit if my time is worth nothing. But then over time get larger equip. that pays for itself and more money:) So I am going to you wizards asking if anyone here has gone on any ventures like I am describing and I know I would need the liscence but do you think there is any beer testing (safety,freshness,Abv)? I was thinking my cousin works at a small alehouse and she if I could get a keg in there and she mentions it to the patrons and who knows my IAIPA (industrial amarillo India Pale ale) takes off. AM I DREAMING? TOO MANY HOMEBREWS? OR REALISTIC?
 
Prepare to jump through some serious hoops. Permits, health department checks, minimum production in the 1000s of gallons per year, etc. Do some research..
 
Dreaming.

Dream on if you are serious though.

The dream can become nightmare when you meet the bureaucrats...



Just a fair warning, but don't let that stop you. Always more room for good beer in the world! :mug:
 
flyangler18 said:
Prepare to jump through some serious hoops. Permits, health department checks, minimum production in the 1000s of gallons per year, etc. Do some research..
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I guess I have to check with the lcb . the brewery permits range from $100-2000. How much do you think basic equipment would cost to make i dunno 50 gallons at once? Or what are these small business park breweries using? Was thinking probably $10,000?
 
You would have to make far more than 50 gallon batches to make it pay.
Sorry to be a dream smasher, but it will never happen.:(
 
I couldn't even begin to estimate.

A member here, Brewpastor, wrote a couple of threads detailing his struggles. I'll see if I can locate the old thread.
 
I've always wondered about a variation on the idea. If you had a really, really good recipe... what about licensing it to a brewery?
 
Those posts would be great flyangler. So what you guys are telling me is that the micro..brewery isn't so micro?
 
YES!!! It Can Be Done! :)

Sure there would be an immense amount of work and certain factors would obviously throw difficulties your way. Most people who take a hobby and build a successful business out of it start out knowing a good bit about the what they want to do, BUT know very little about the business end of it. It would most certainly take time, patience and $$$.

I don't understand why people were so quick to give replies that basically said that it was impossible. :confused: However, speaking REALISTICALLY you could expect it to be quite a challenge.

Remember "An overnight success is twenty years in the making." :mug:
 
Don't think in terms of bottle and sell - there are huge costs related to distribution. Think more in terms of "brewpub" where you only sell your beer on premises. Its still a massive undertaking but more manageable. You have to be able to make it in the restaurant business thought - people wont come just because you have great beer.
 
I know two pro brewers in the local area that have 1 barrel systems. One mainly supplies his brother's restaurant. How they manage with the permitting & inspection requirements is a mystery.
 
isac777 said:
I live in the great state of washington and the other night at dinner I ordered a boundry bay ipa brewed in bellingham for $4.50. After tasting it I said to my wife that my ipa is better, fresher with more aroma and better flavor. So she says if your beer is better and all of our friends say how good it is then what if you were to sell it wouldn't it do good? And if so how much could you sell it for a glass? (16oz.) I thought it could sell and wholesale probably I dunno for $2.00 a glass, so for every five gallons thats 40 pints. I brew 10g at a time so that is $160.00 minus around $70.00 for ingredients and propane around $10 thats $80 profit if my time is worth nothing. But then over time get larger equip. that pays for itself and more money:) So I am going to you wizards asking if anyone here has gone on any ventures like I am describing and I know I would need the liscence but do you think there is any beer testing (safety,freshness,Abv)? I was thinking my cousin works at a small alehouse and she if I could get a keg in there and she mentions it to the patrons and who knows my IAIPA (industrial amarillo India Pale ale) takes off. AM I DREAMING? TOO MANY HOMEBREWS? OR REALISTIC?
Click to expand...

If it were that simple most of us would already be doing it. There is the little matter of the US Goverment; the Treasury Dept and the office of whatever the ATF has morphed into are going to collect taxes on any beer produced and they will be quite strict on that. There are forms, permits, a brewer's bond, certification & approval of facilities (you have to have a brewery, can't make it in your kitchen and sell it), lots of legal work, etc., etc., etc. Unfortunately you can't sell your own alcoholic beverages the way you might sell cookies at a church bake sale. Go for it if you have the enthusiasm, financing, and time but it is a large task. Best of luck if you take the plunge. :mug:
 
Short answer - absolutely you can do it. I takes time, attention to detail, some paperwork and generally about $1,500.00 in fees for permits and applications (but $1,000.00 is a bond you'll get back if you give up your TTB bond). In the meantime, the economies of sale can kill you if you try and get too big too soon or think you can quit your day job. Quickest way to test the waters is to talk to a local brewpub and see if they'll let you brew under their license, move your stuff there and put a keg or two on tap and see what happens. Remember, Jim Koch started in his kitchen getting yelled at by his wife because the steam from his wort boil pealed the wallpaper.

Check out this thread.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/pub-wants-my-brew-82430/

This one:

One man operation capabilities - ProBrewer Interactive

And this one:

Viability of really small breweries - ProBrewer Interactive

If you're really serious about it - hell yeah, go for it.

Just don't get ahead of yourself and realize that staying small for possibly longer than you might want to means that the inevitable mistakes that come up will be small as well and easier to manage. Avoid spending cash to upgrade your system until you have a cash flow and don't extend yourself beyond what you could walk away from. One piece of advice if you go down this road - If you're going to do the nano-brewery thing, focus on building your brand recognition and reputation for quality rather than volume. Your viability as an artisan/boutique craft brewer is dependent on you pricing yourself to reflect quality and scarcity of product. You can't compete with regular breweries on price anyway so don't play in that sandbox. You should be looking at pricing roughly equivalent to Chimay or other high end imports. Double your wholesale price if you want to be viable and have people take you seriously.

Sally forth, brother, and bring quality suds to the masses. Lord knows we could never have enough.

Gordie
 
Or try to find a bar owner that will buy your brew and sell it under the table...... i just found out there is a bar down the street from me that does this with homebrew and liquor.

If only i wasn't about to move.
 
A quicker alternative. I have and am, brewing for a friend of mine. It started with a free duo pack, and he liked it and had questions. I answered them and suggested he try to brew some, and I would assist. He suggested I sell the brew to him. I suggested he "donate to the beer fund". This allows me to brew and supply him with free sixers, half cases, whatever. Not cost effective on his part, so I also supplied some freebies to co-workers for critique. They also "donated to the beer fund". It has never been for profit, and people get different beer than they would get in our neck of the woods. I however am under the gun to not screw a batch and go out of pocket for the next, which leads to being careful and clean, a plus for me. I have also recieved "other than cash" for the free beer in the way of brewing hardware. Plus, the critiques and different style requests are welcome and everyone understands beer takes time and "haste is waste". I don't see how this could be illegal but I'm sure it could be in a court of law. I'm just educating masses, drinking good beer and trying new stuff. I make a lot of friends, as well. "Beer distribution day" is always a good day at work.
Now that's a giant leap to micro-brew or a small jump to brewclub, I'm not sure which. Either way, I brew, therefore I am.
 
Radarbrew said:
A quicker alternative. I have and am, brewing for a friend of mine. It started with a free duo pack, and he liked it and had questions. I answered them and suggested he try to brew some, and I would assist. He suggested I sell the brew to him. I suggested he "donate to the beer fund". This allows me to brew and supply him with free sixers, half cases, whatever. Not cost effective on his part, so I also supplied some freebies to co-workers for critique. They also "donated to the beer fund". It has never been for profit, and people get different beer than they would get in our neck of the woods. I however am under the gun to not screw a batch and go out of pocket for the next, which leads to being careful and clean, a plus for me. I have also recieved "other than cash" for the free beer in the way of brewing hardware. Plus, the critiques and different style requests are welcome and everyone understands beer takes time and "haste is waste". I don't see how this could be illegal but I'm sure it could be in a court of law. I'm just educating masses, drinking good beer and trying new stuff. I make a lot of friends, as well. "Beer distribution day" is always a good day at work.
Now that's a giant leap to micro-brew or a small jump to brewclub, I'm not sure which. Either way, I brew, therefore I am.
Click to expand...

Producing beer and distributing it outside the bounds of the law is very bad in the Federal Prison and humongous fines kind of way. At the very least any beer produced over the Federal and State limits for homebrew is taxable. Once you distribute you are talking prison time. Calling it donations or presents or whatever, might play in the office, but the ATF and IRS will call the spade a spade.

Admitting to it online is tantamount to providing a prewritten confession should you ever rise up on the radar screen.

Telling people online that "you know someone" who does this will only invite the ATF to ask you, under federal subpoena of course, who that person is.
 
If you want to know the ins and outs of starting a brewpub and the headaches associated with it, Brewtopia recently opened Naked City Brewing in Seattle.
 
What about a "beer co-op" everyone provides dues and help brew, and they get a cut of the beer?
 
Maybe relevant--I've run across a killer line of ales produced by a small brewery in central Texas. I've noticed their brew has made it from the local liquor store to the grocery store. I don't know what their production volume would be. But judging by their website, I'm guessing they started out small.

Real Ale Brewing Company
 
Chello said:
Or try to find a bar owner that will buy your brew and sell it under the table...... i just found out there is a bar down the street from me that does this with homebrew and liquor.

If only i wasn't about to move.
Click to expand...

This sounds illegal on SO MANY LEVELS...

Numerous health and tax code violations...Selling homebrew is illegal for the brewer, so if he's caught...ouch... I see jail time for bar owners, and moonshiners (er I mean homebrewrs.)
 
Revvy said:
This sounds illegal on SO MANY LEVELS...

Numerous health and tax code violations...Selling homebrew is illegal for the brewer, so if he's caught...ouch... I see jail time for bar owners, and moonshiners (er I mean homebrewrs.)
Click to expand...

Yea I was going to comment on this one too, Revvy. Then I realized that I just don't believe it. I don't believe any business owner who was sharp enough to get a business to own in the first place would be so dull witted to risk everything, including their home and freedom, to openly traffic in illegal substances.

If he is that stupid he certainly deserves the world of legal troubles storming his way.
 
I see a lot of these threads where people are dreaming of making this obsession/ hobby a money making venture by opening a brewery, etc. To date I can't remember seeing a suggestion to open a LHBS. You get to defray your costs, you get to indulge your hobby and to associate non-stop with people of like mind. There are minimal legal hurdles. There are much fewer barriers to entry. The market is far less saturated. The current economy actually favors this move (with naive people thinking they will actually save money brewing their own :).)
 
dontman said:
Yea I was going to comment on this one too, Revvy. Then I realized that I just don't believe it. I don't believe any business owner who was sharp enough to get a business to own in the first place would be so dull witted to risk everything, including their home and freedom, to openly traffic in illegal substances.

If he is that stupid he certainly deserves the world of legal troubles storming his way.
Click to expand...

Yup, my thoughts too. But we went there the other night and i saw someone order a liquor drink when they only "have" beer.

So i'm beginning to think it's true.
 
dontman said:
I see a lot of these threads where people are dreaming of making this obsession/ hobby a money making venture by opening a brewery, etc. To date I can't remember seeing a suggestion to open a LHBS. You get to defray your costs, you get to indulge your hobby and to associate non-stop with people of like mind. There are minimal legal hurdles. There are much fewer barriers to entry. The market is far less saturated. The current economy actually favors this move (with naive people thinking they will actually save money brewing their own :).)
Click to expand...

Actually, this is the route that I've thought I would prefer to take for all the reasons you mentioned, plus it would satisfy my social bent...(that means I love to talk!) I even have an area that could use one.Only thing I don't have? $$$$$
 
best way to kill your love of a hobby ... Make it your living.

I love working on Harley's I do engines frames paint the whole 9 yards. I did it for a while after I retired and started to hate it . Now its just a hobby again and it really relaxing just like brewing ..
 
H'm. Fascinating stuff, "billtzk," I had no idea that libertarianism had a revolutionary side. In the meantime, addressing the OP, the first thing I'd do is to review the Federal and Washington State statutes regulating the manufacture and sale of alcohol.

Please note that I'm not telling you not to do this, only to understand the costs and benefits -all of them- before you do. You've worked out some basic economics of producing beer, but the minute you propose to sell any, you're in a whole different world.

Barter or "reciprocal gifts" are possible answers.....but you need to recall the old IRS joke, that the difference between avoidance and evasion is about 7-10 years.

Despite all the theories, there's a reason money exists, and our government, like all others, survives and waxes fat by monopolizing the production of money, and by tapping into its movement.
 
dontman said:
Producing beer and distributing it outside the bounds of the law is very bad in the Federal Prison and humongous fines kind of way. At the very least any beer produced over the Federal and State limits for homebrew is taxable. Once you distribute you are talking prison time. Calling it donations or presents or whatever, might play in the office, but the ATF and IRS will call the spade a spade.

Admitting to it online is tantamount to providing a prewritten confession should you ever rise up on the radar screen.

Telling people online that "you know someone" who does this will only invite the ATF to ask you, under federal subpoena of course, who that person is.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this post, "dontman." After reading some of the posts in this thread, I think there are some people out there who don't realize what they're doing when they put material on the Internet. It's like the First Commandment of e-mail: "Don't put anything in an e-mail message that you wouldn't go into the mall and shout aloud in pubic."
 
FYI - required viewing...


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEQXwK4JQlY]YouTube - Fresh Brew[/ame]


Gordie.
 
Seriously - don't let those guys dissuade you - they are quitters.

it can be done - seriously! Get the regs and get a license (it's not THAT hard). I know home brewers that have opened microbreweries here in Wisconsin.

ANYBODY that says' it can't be done even with a small 10 gallon system is lazy. Can you make money - maybe maybe not.

For instance - at the moment I'm working with a guy with a tiny little bar - he wants me to brew beer for him - have a tap or two of my own to do with what I wish. I would be the house brew.

Even if I only brew 1 barrel a week - it's fine.

As was told to me by people that did do it the HARD part is just jumping through the hoops with Uncle Sam. It's not about cleanliness or anything like that, it just that they want their cut of the profits.

This is America and there is always a way.
 

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