Water profile important for saison?

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jfrank85

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I would really like to try my hand at brewing a saison and i have been really interested in brewing chemistry lately. Is there a specific water profile that is used to create these beers or is it mostly a yeast driven style (of course i understand there should be some minerals in the water)? Using beer smith water profile creator and R/O water.
 
While Saison is a Belgian style with some phenolic notes, some hop bittering and aroma are typical to the style. A modest sulfate content will help dry the beer and its finish. The ionic content should be otherwise modest.
 
Martin, what do you consider "modest"? Especially for sulfate?

I'm finding that with a lowered sulfate content for all beer styles (including IPAs) I'm enjoying them more than ever. But maybe I went from "highish" to "modest" and that's why.
 
I suggest that a modest sulfate level falls between 50 and 100 ppm. I like high sulfate (300 ppm) in my PAs and IPAs. I've seen many technical references and pro brewers caution against using a sulfate level above 300 to 350 ppm to avoid sulfury notes and flavors. I can't comment on that very high sulfate validity. I've heard from Colin Kaminski who has indicated that he enjoys sulfate levels of up to 900 ppm, but his customers do not.

This very high sulfate issue is one reason why emulating historic brewing water profiles such as Burton is unwise. Most references I've reviewed, show Burton water with sulfate well above 500 ppm. That might not produce a pleasant beer. Hopefully, Yooper didn't emulate that level in the past.

With respect to any malt focused style, I strongly agree that reducing sulfate to low levels (<50 ppm) is important.
 
In farmhouse Ales, pg 105 Phil Markowski states, "The water of western Hainaut is hard, containing high levels of bicarbonates and sulfates." He goes on to talk about iron in the water, my water is naturally moderate in iron levels. Maybe I'll cut some of the ro with my well water.

Table 8 on pg 154

pH 7.2
Bicarbonate 350
Calcium 52
Choride 20
Mg 17
Sodium 35
Sulfates 107
Total Hardness 454
 
I'd like to revive this thread. I am working through my water profile for the style. Any new input in recent years?
 
I'd like to revive this thread. I am working through my water profile for the style. Any new input in recent years?

While extreme, I recently used Tasty McDole's water profile on a saison and thought it was great!
 
Yes, the water profile is important as it will have an influence on the finished product but one cannot say "Use this profile for that beer" unless he knows what the brewers criterion of optimality is. The obvious one is to make an 'authentic', in this case, Saison. To do so one would want to use water typical of the water used by Saison brewers and to treat it in the same way they do, or did (does authentic mean like the ones being produced today or in yesteryear?).

Another optimality criterion is the best tasting beer and the immediately following question is "according to whom?". I well remember sitting at an investor's meeting at which the guy sitting next to me commented "This sure doesn't taste like any Saison I've ever had but it sells like hotcakes so I don't care." "Whom", in this case, was obviously the customers. Another possible "whom" would be the judges at GABF or, in the case of the home brewer, the judges at the competitions he enters, his spouse and friends and ultimately, himself. Accordingly, the brewer must experiment. I usually recommend starting with nothing but RO water to which a modest amount of calcium chloride has been added. This gives a basic foundation of some calcium paired with chloride which is almost always a benefit and thus nearly always produces a good beer. Stepping off from that point one quickly (time measured in units of brews so it can actually be a long time if one doesn't brew often) determines whether some sulfate should be added to the chloride or replace the chloride etc.
 
what were the numbers? do you know the bicarbonate?

Sorry for the delay in response.

There's no bicarbonate in Tasty's water profile and just like him I use RO for my brewing. This was nothing more than an extreme experiment that happened to turn out really well, I didn't worry about mash pH, ideal flavor ions, etc. There's a million reasons why the water guys will pick this apart but it produced a tasty saison.



EDIT: I forgot to tell you that I used the saison recipe from Brewing Classic Styles and subbed Danstar Belle Saison for the yeast.
 
I didn't worry about mash pH, ideal flavor ions, etc. There's a million reasons why the water guys will pick this apart but it produced a tasty saison.
"Pick apart" is common English for the fancier word "analyze" which means to separate into its parts. There is really only one reason to analyze, or, if you prefer, pick this apart, and that's to try to learn why made a good beer. Lack of alkalinity is an important factor as alkalinity is seldom a brewer's friend and the high sulfate had been named in an earlier post as another potential benefit. You may not care about what you are doing but if you get lucky others can still potentially benefit from it.
 
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