Is this the result of a poor cold break?

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Fishin-Jay

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I've been brewing about a year and a half now, and I've had a consistently off flavor noticeable in most of my beers. The best way I could describe it, is that it is a lingering aftertaste that is kind of a cross between wet cardboard (oxidation) and astringent (over sparge). It really doesn't match either "off flavor profile" perfectly, and it has been evident in early recipes when I was using extract.

What I am noticing is that I also taste this flavor in beers that don't clear very well. However, if I let the beer sit in the fridge for 3 or 4 months, the off flavor disappears and the beer clears. In fact, I'm drinking a pale ale right now that is 8 months old and tastes better than the beer did at 2 months. No weird aftertaste.

Considering the noticeable clearing I am seeing along with improved flavor, is this the result of not cooling my beer fast enough and relying on an extremely long cold conditioning to fix the problem?

I'm using a MoreBeer 25' immersion cooler, which takes 30+ minutes to get the beer down to 70 -75 degrees.

All recipes have been various pale ales with OGs around 1.050, some all grain, some PM, some extract, all with the same issue.

Ideas?
 
Have you tried using something like Irish Moss, Isinglass, or Whirlfloc?

These should help settle out some of the suspended solids. No idea if these will fix your issue, but worth a try.
 
Have you tried using something like Irish Moss, Isinglass, or Whirlfloc?

These should help settle out some of the suspended solids. No idea if these will fix your issue, but worth a try.

I forgot to mention, I use whirlfloc in the last 15 minutes of every boil.
 
I don't think your off-flavors are the result of a slow cooling/poor cold break. I'd say a 30 minute cool to 70-75F with an immersion chiller is pretty average, actually (from what I've read; I don't use one).

More details on your process would help, especially what is happening post-boil (since you have this flavor in all brewing methods, its probably not a feature specific to the process pre-boil since they are all different). How long and what temps are your fermenting at? Are you cold-crashing? How old are the beers where you notice this flavor? It sounds like it goes away with time, correct?
 
hoping to hijack the thread for just a quick answer(s)

cold break = bringing down the temp of the wort after boil ?

cold crash = don't know
 
I don't think your off-flavors are the result of a slow cooling/poor cold break. I'd say a 30 minute cool to 70-75F with an immersion chiller is pretty average, actually (from what I've read; I don't use one).

More details on your process would help, especially what is happening post-boil (since you have this flavor in all brewing methods, its probably not a feature specific to the process pre-boil since they are all different). How long and what temps are your fermenting at? Are you cold-crashing? How old are the beers where you notice this flavor? It sounds like it goes away with time, correct?

  • About 5 minutes before flame out I add the sanitized chiller.
  • At flame out I start the chiller, with the lid on the pot, and chill to ~70-75 degrees in 30 minutes.
  • I Whirlpool and then wait 30 minutes before transferring to a Better Bottle.
  • Then I oxygenate for 3-5 minutes with O2 and a stone.
  • I pitch my whole starter (usually 1.5 liters), install the airlock and ferment in a water bath at ~66-68 degrees.
  • I use a fermometer to get the approximate temp and adjust the temp of the water bath to keep the fermometer reading between 66 and 68. The fermometer is stuck to the carboy above the water line to ensure it is reading carboy temp, not water bath temp.
  • I ferment for 2 - 3 weeks. 2 weeks in primary, then 1 week in secondary if I am dry hopping.
  • Before I bottle I move the fermenter to the kitchen counter and let it sit 4 - 6 hours before transfering to a bottling bucket. I add 4oz of corn sugar which I disolved in 1.5 cups of boiling water.
  • I store the bottled beer at 68 - 70 degrees for 2 weeks, then put them in the fridge for at least a week before I try one.

When I try the first one, it has the poor aftertaste. The longer they are in the fridge, the better they taste. Usually it has taken at least 6 weeks in the fridge to lose the bad aftertaste. Also, if I have beer that has been stored in the closet for a few months, it also needs 6 weeks in the fridge before it tastes right.

This whole situation has me considering giving up brewing since I can't seem to figure it out. Brewing is fun, but if I don't like my beer, it just isn't very satisfying.
 
start with a common thread between all of the beers. what is your water source? start with that, change your source and see if there is difference.
 
start with a common thread between all of the beers. what is your water source? start with that, change your source and see if there is difference.

I've been buying bottled spring water. So far I have used the Safeway brand, Albertson's brand, and Arrowhead.
Maybe next time I could try using distilled water and then add minerals?

Thinking along the lines of common threads between all of the brew sessions, I've been thinking about my equipment. I've been using StarSan to sanitize everything, but my equipment is the only common thread for every brew session.

It's been exasperating trying to figure out the cause of this aftertaste. I keep hoping somone will chime in that has had the same issue and figured out how to fix it. I feel like I'm flying solo on this problem. :(
 
One other thing that seems odd to me is that the problem is an aftertaste. The beer always smells fine and tastes fine when it hits my tongue. It's the taste that remains after I swallow that is bad. Nothing I'm reading tends to discuss how the brewing and fermenting process affect the beer's finish.
 
My question is, what kind of commercial beers do you normally drink? Are they the same kind of beers you're attempting to brew?
 
My question is, what kind of commercial beers do you normally drink? Are they the same kind of beers you're attempting to brew?

I drink a lot of different beers and beer styles, including Belgians, various lagers, brown ales, porters, stouts, and hefeweisens, but mainly I drink Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Deschutes Mirror Pond, and Bridgeport IPA. I don't think this is a case of expecting my beer to taste like theirs. I like the taste of my beer, until the aftertaste hits.
 
If I read your description properly it looks like you put a lid on the boiling pot while you cool it. I thought I read somewhere that until the wort cools it should be allowed to "breath". I will look for the reference, but maybe that is the source. Just a thought.
 
Are you doing extract brewing? Maybe your taste buds are super sensitive to the "twang" that is common with extract. I have noticed this to a small degree as well. I am switching to all grain soon to see the difference
 
This is from Palmer. Not sure it is the same taste that you notice:

"Once you achieve a boil, only partially cover the pot, if at all. Why? Because in wort there are sulfur compounds that evolve and boil off. If they aren't removed during the boil, the can form dimethyl sulfide which contributes a cooked cabbage or corn-like flavor to the beer. If the cover is left on the pot, or left on such that the condensate from the lid can drip back in, then these flavors will have a much greater chance of showing up in the finished beer."
 
This is from Palmer. Not sure it is the same taste that you notice:

"Once you achieve a boil, only partially cover the pot, if at all. Why? Because in wort there are sulfur compounds that evolve and boil off. If they aren't removed during the boil, the can form dimethyl sulfide which contributes a cooked cabbage or corn-like flavor to the beer. If the cover is left on the pot, or left on such that the condensate from the lid can drip back in, then these flavors will have a much greater chance of showing up in the finished beer."

I definitely boil with the cover off. I only cover the pot after flameout, once I begin cooling. Even then, it is only partially covered.

Are you doing extract brewing? Maybe your taste buds are super sensitive to the "twang" that is common with extract. I have noticed this to a small degree as well. I am switching to all grain soon to see the difference

I thought the same thing at first which is why I went to PM brewing, and then to all grain.

I know that from what I am posting so far, it sounds like my beer should be fine. That's the frustrating thing for me. I can't figure out what's going wrong in my process.
 
I drink a lot of different beers and beer styles, including Belgians, various lagers, brown ales, porters, stouts, and hefeweisens, but mainly I drink Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Deschutes Mirror Pond, and Bridgeport IPA. I don't think this is a case of expecting my beer to taste like theirs. I like the taste of my beer, until the aftertaste hits.

Fair enough. I always ask this question to new brewers that complain of off flavors because I think a lot of times people end up trying to brew styles they aren't familiar with. If you normally drink BMC and brew a pale ale or a hefeweizen then obviously they're going to taste a little weird.

One thing you may want to try as far as chilling faster is to stir your wort gently with your immersion chiller. I get my wort down to pitching temps in 15 minutes doing this with my 25' foot chiller.
 
One thing you may want to try as far as chilling faster is to stir your wort gently with your immersion chiller. I get my wort down to pitching temps in 15 minutes doing this with my 25' foot chiller.

This is something I haven't tried yet, thanks!
I was considering buying a pump so I can do whirlpool recirculation with the immersion cooler, but until I save the $$$, I think I'll try this technique.
 
You could just let it sit in the primary for a total of 4 weeks than cold crash it for 2-3 days. See if some of the off flavors go away. I couldn't believe how clear my extract beer was after doing this method
 
Just another thought for you. Are you adding water salts to the water. If you are using spring water or tap water, there are already some salts in there and adding burtons water salts or others can over salt it adding to a weird flavor. Ok. My 2 cents. Good luck
 
^ thanks for the input

Cold break is the material that forms in the wort when rapidly cooled following the boil.

Cold crash is the process of taking an already fermented beer (or starter) and chilling it to encourage any remaining material in suspension to settle out.
 
Fishin - two questions...

1. Have you brewed darker beers - amber/stouts/porters and if so, did they have the same taste you are describing?

2. Is this flavor profile evident in the wort? Is is then evident post fermentation but pre-bottling/kegging? Or is this flavor just showing up in your finished carbonated product?
 
Are you doing full wort boils?Try using a different sanitizer/one step?Maybe skip secondary do a longer primary?Do you use a glass carboy maybe its somthing in your equipt?Somtimes certain yeast can add a funk (s-23) that only seems to go away with time,or sometimes not.Does your hydro sample have this taste or is it after you bottle condition the beer?
 
[*]Then I oxygenate for 3-5 minutes with O2 and a stone.

Gasp. I don't have one of these setups but everyone seems to think 1 minute is good. I don't know if oxidation flavors would age out though. Try doing a low gravity batch with a pack of Safeal us5. Not sure I'd trust notty right now. In theory you shouldn't have to oxygenate at all. But, give the carboy a shake.
 
Your process seems to be good (altough I would try fermenting lower). If the off flavour was due to oxydation or infection, it wouldn't go away after a few weeks in the fridge. Next time you brew, take a good swig of yeasty beer: maybe you are very sensitive to yeast still being in suspension. I know that with some beers/strains, if I pour some of the yeats in the beer, I can detect it right away and I get a bitter/bready aftertaste in the finish.

On the other hand, if cold conditionning for long periods of time does the trick, there's really not that much a problem, at least not a problem that warrants dropping the hobby. Get a mini fridge and do your cold conditionning there as soon as you hit carbonation.
 
Gasp. I don't have one of these setups but everyone seems to think 1 minute is good. I don't know if oxidation flavors would age out though. Try doing a low gravity batch with a pack of Safeal us5. Not sure I'd trust notty right now. In theory you shouldn't have to oxygenate at all. But, give the carboy a shake.

Good point i dont use oxegen either just shake the carboy!Try skippin that step next time.
 
Gasp. I don't have one of these setups but everyone seems to think 1 minute is good. I don't know if oxidation flavors would age out though. Try doing a low gravity batch with a pack of Safeal us5. Not sure I'd trust notty right now. In theory you shouldn't have to oxygenate at all. But, give the carboy a shake.


Why are we supposed to distrust Notty currently?

To OP, have you had HBing friends try your beer and see if they agree it has an off flavor?

Why not try store drinking water. I personally think arrowhead is some of the worst tasting water on the market and the store mountain spring brands are pretty much the same.

Also maybe you should try priming with DME. You might just have a very sensitive palate and you are tasting the fermented glucose. And finally if you are not using a glass or stainless fermenter maybe you shoud give that a try. You technique is way above a beginners like me so maybe you should try a dumbed down batch. Extract, partial boil, no 02 stone, no transferring other than pot to carboy, basic dry yeast safale 04 or 05 or Notty and let her sit 3-4 weeks then bottle and see if it is still there.

Good luck.
 
Why are we supposed to distrust Notty currently?

Still sporadic reports of failures with it. Anywhere from being dead, to slow fermentations, to off flavors. I'd just take that out of the equation for now and stick with another brand dry yeast as an experiment.
 
Have you tried decanting the starter? That small of a volume of oxidized starter beer probably won't be noticeable in a pale ale , but if I were you I would give it a try to see if that helps the oxidized flavor.

I also agree that it could be you are getting a small amount of yeast in your glass that gives it an off flavor. Longer cold storage helps form a compact layer at the bottom and you are likely to get less yeast in your glass. Maybe try changing up your pour.
 
Fishin - two questions...

1. Have you brewed darker beers - amber/stouts/porters and if so, did they have the same taste you are describing?

2. Is this flavor profile evident in the wort? Is is then evident post fermentation but pre-bottling/kegging? Or is this flavor just showing up in your finished carbonated product?

1. I haven't done darker beers, but I have done a couple high gravity Belgians, and I don't notice the flavor in those. I have always assumed that the strong yeast flavor was compensating, but I couldn't say that for sure.

2. The flavor is not evident in the wort, nor do I think it is evident after fermentation, but I'm going to pay closer attention next time. I like this question. It's got me wondering at which point in my process the flavor develops. Thanks!

As for having others try my beer, I don't know anybody else who brews. I actually posted in the Tasting forum looking for somebody nearby that might be willing to help.
 
Darker beers - at least for me - have covered up some issues in my brewing, be it steeping/mashing at the wrong temp, too hot ferments, and other issues. I'm trouble shooting two beers now that tasted beautifully all the way to bottling and then had some issues. I've narrowed it down to a number of possibilities - not the least of which is water. But I've also played around with how short/long the beer sits on the yeast cake, different lengths of cold crashing, and other experiments to see where in the process the problem exists - e.g. if my recent lighter beers were rushed off the cake too early.

Identifying when you first taste the off flavors may go a long way in finding a solution...keep us posted on what you come up with, and I'll endeavor to do the same.
 
Fishin-Jay, I feel your pain.

I too am having similar issues with my beers and I'm trying to nail down where in my process I'm going wrong. It seems to take extensive time to finally 'clear', maybe 1 month + fermenting then another month + in the fridge before I would call it 'clearish', with an off flavor that's hard to describe. I've asked before and gotten the same (helpful) suggestions but haven't got to the bottom of things...

I honestly think I can nail my issue down to a couple problem areas, so here's what I'm trying:

1) stepping way back and starting with a canned kit of extract with DME / quality yeast with my usual cleaning/sanitation ritual to see if the beer turns out clear/off flavors/etc.

If this kit turns out well/clears fast/no off flavors,

2) I currently use a Corona mill. The setting I was at almost literally crushed my grain into oblivion. I never have had a stuck sparge, but I strongly suspect I'm grinding my grain/husks far too much and pulling some of the dust/husk bits from the mash into the beer. I've made some adjustments here too and my crush now has a completely different look.

Might not be the same issues as you, but if you can take a methodical approach to tinkering with your process, think of how great your beers will taste once you've nailed your issue down.

Keep brewing!
 
Cold break is the material that forms in the wort when rapidly cooled following the boil.

Cold crash is the process of taking an already fermented beer (or starter) and chilling it to encourage any remaining material in suspension to settle out.

thanks - :mug:
 
If you're keeping the temperature of the carboy is 68-70F then the wort is higher than that. This high fermentation could be the most likely culprit of that flavor, because I've had the same issue with a high temp ferment.
 
Hi Jay, just a thought, but conditioning in bottle tends to move much more slowly at lower temps. Since it's currently taking your beer in bottle 8 weeks to even out (2 weeks around room temp + 6 weeks in fridge), have you tried leaving the bottles to continue conditioning at room temp for a longer period (say, 4 weeks)? I'd be curious if the 6 weeks in fridge that it takes to mellow out would be reduced if it were at a warmer temp.

Also, do you use a bottling wand to ensure filling bottles from bottom-up? If you just use a hose cut-off and fill from the top, this may account for some of the oxidative qualities (particularly since you stated that this flavors aren't there prior to bottling).

Also, also, where are you getting your bottles from? If you are using recycled bottles, it could be that built-up deposits in the bottles aren't quite getting removed. Have you tried a heavy soak of your bottles in a cleaning agent overnight before cleaning, sanitizing and bottling? As one poster mentioned before, if it goes away eventually, it isn't likely infection, but it's worth looking at.

Best of luck!

Cheers!
 
Hi Jay, just a thought, but conditioning in bottle tends to move much more slowly at lower temps. Since it's currently taking your beer in bottle 8 weeks to even out (2 weeks around room temp + 6 weeks in fridge), have you tried leaving the bottles to continue conditioning at room temp for a longer period (say, 4 weeks)? I'd be curious if the 6 weeks in fridge that it takes to mellow out would be reduced if it were at a warmer temp.

Also, do you use a bottling wand to ensure filling bottles from bottom-up? If you just use a hose cut-off and fill from the top, this may account for some of the oxidative qualities (particularly since you stated that this flavors aren't there prior to bottling).

Also, also, where are you getting your bottles from? If you are using recycled bottles, it could be that built-up deposits in the bottles aren't quite getting removed. Have you tried a heavy soak of your bottles in a cleaning agent overnight before cleaning, sanitizing and bottling? As one poster mentioned before, if it goes away eventually, it isn't likely infection, but it's worth looking at.

Best of luck!

Cheers!

Thanks for the thoughts, but unfortunately I've got these issues covered. I've let beer condition at room temp for up to 5 months. I use a bottling wand. I've tried buying brand new bottles.

I am glad to get the help from everyone though! I'm feeling motivated to buy ingredients for a couple more brews and meticulously track the flavors through the process to see where/if it develops again. I really appreciate the feedback and suggestions!
 
If you're keeping the temperature of the carboy is 68-70F then the wort is higher than that. This high fermentation could be the most likely culprit of that flavor, because I've had the same issue with a high temp ferment.

You might be on to something here. This explanation would be consistent with my Belgian ales turning out well, and the fact that the longer the other beers sit the better they taste. I may try to ferment at a much lower temp next time. Or, perhaps it's time to buy a chest freezer and Johnson controller...
 
It would be much harder to over oxygenate the wort in a big beer. Ease back on the oxygen.

The more I think about it, this and better control of fermenation temps are the obvious culprits.

As for the oxygen....its recommended for big beers, but I'm not sure you have to do it for the more session/ordinary beers (e.g. beers with OGs 1.040-1.060).

I do alot of beers in this OG range and just shake the fermenter before pitching yeast. Sometime I don't even do that (forget, etc). Never had a problem with attenuation. I focus more on pitching enough yeast.

Plus, you are using starters....alot of the yeast growth that requires oxygen (i.e. reproduction) goes on when you make a starter...so its possible that the oxygen you are putting into the wort via oxygenation/aeration isn't being used because the yeast are beyond that particular growth stage (for the most part). There are alot of caveats to this line of reasoning, but its as good of a guess as any...

Just my 0.02
 
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