Saison Recipe needing Critique

(New Recipe on Pg. 2)
Going to be doing a saison and this is the recipe ive come up with please tell me what you think and if i need to change anything



10 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 69.6 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 10.4 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 10.4 %
12 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 5.2 %
6 oz Acidulated (Weyermann) (1.8 SRM) Grain 2.6 %
4 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 1.7 %

1.5 oz Styrian Goldings [5.20%] (60 min) Hops 29.1 IBU
1.0 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00%] (1 min) Hops 2.5 IBU

1 Pkgs Belgian Saison I Ale (Wyeast 3724) Yeast-Ale

Batch sparge @ 148

will add Gypsum and calcium chloride to harden water

Cheers,
Bells

Overall, I think you have a tasty beer there. But I've got just a few questions.

Why the pale, and why the oats?

I don't see the pale adding anything. If you only have 10# of pils on hand, and you want it for the gravity, then it's all good... But if you're expecting a flavor contribution, I'd skip it and replace it with pils (or more wheat).

And why the oats? I don't use oats much, but that just seems out of place. I can't imagine what in the recipe would be served by adding 1.7% of flaked oats. If you're just using it for body and head retention, why not use flaked wheat instead?

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My view on recipes is simple -- if you're going to use an ingredient, you should have a clearly defined reason why you want to use it. I can "see" your thought process on your other ingredients... But these just seem unnecessary and don't seem like they'd contribute anything meaningful to the beer...

My 2 cents anyway...

thought the pale would add depth and the oat where traditionally used and thought it would add to mouth feel and texture

I am a big fan and believer in complex malt profiles. I understand what bwarbiany is saying about having a purpose for everything, but increasing complexity is a purpose. You may not actually notice a difference, but you probably won't hurt anything either.
I have never worked with the acidulated malt. I do a sour mash for my Saison. I bring 12oz of base malt (10 gal batch) to mash temp, then just let it sit in a pitcher for about 2 to 4 days. Looks horrible when I dump it in the mash on brew day, but brings a faint lactic twang, and a bit of a bit of barnyard character without the extensive aging.
Recipe looks great though.

bwarbiany said:

Overall, I think you have a tasty beer there. But I've got just a few questions.

Why the pale, and why the oats?

I don't see the pale adding anything. If you only have 10# of pils on hand, and you want it for the gravity, then it's all good... But if you're expecting a flavor contribution, I'd skip it and replace it with pils (or more wheat).

And why the oats? I don't use oats much, but that just seems out of place. I can't imagine what in the recipe would be served by adding 1.7% of flaked oats. If you're just using it for body and head retention, why not use flaked wheat instead?

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My view on recipes is simple -- if you're going to use an ingredient, you should have a clearly defined reason why you want to use it. I can "see" your thought process on your other ingredients... But these just seem unnecessary and don't seem like they'd contribute anything meaningful to the beer...

My 2 cents anyway...

Click to expand...

Oats are very prominent in commercial examples of Saisons. OP, did you catch last Sundays Session on the brewing Network? If not, bug them for the podcast. Jason Yester from Trinity Brewing was on (Saison Man/God of Saison making) and did a 2 hour long interview. They covered everything from Sours to Saisons and he gave a lot of good tips on recipe composition. With that said, here is a recipe that I've brewed and really love (probably my 10th saison made).

7.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 58.33 %
1.50 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 12.50 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.33 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.33 %
0.50 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
0.25 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 2.08 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.08 %
0.50 lb Candi Sugar, Clear (0.5 SRM) Sugar 4.17 %
1 Pkgs Belgian Saison (Wyeast Labs #3724) Yeast-Ale


Rye is the key ingredient that I think change my whole thinking on Saisons. It needs to be in there. Also, the 3724 is the most classic example of a Farmhouse yeast but it tends to be slow after the 1.030 range. For that, Yester said they actually pitch about 1/4 the amount of 3711 along side it which gives better overall attenuation.

Oh, and feel free to go higher on the % of wheat. Or better yet Yester praised using Spelt as it has like 10 times the protein of wheat and gives it the mouthfeel a farmhouse should have. I've yet to find spelt though.....

Germey said:

I am a big fan and believer in complex malt profiles. I understand what bwarbiany is saying about having a purpose for everything, but increasing complexity is a purpose. You may not actually notice a difference, but you probably won't hurt anything either.
Recipe looks great though.

Click to expand...

FYI, I don't have a problem with complexity (my milk stout has 7 different grains, not counting the lactose), only that you have a reason to put something in. Especially when people are new to ingredients, it's more helpful to keep recipes a bit more simple to be able to understand the ingredients more clearly for future recipe creation. If you brew a stellar beer, I think it's important to know WHY you brewed that stellar beer and be able to apply those recipe lessons in the future.

I hadn't heard that oats were used in a lot of commercial saisons, so that's new info for me -- thanks boostsr for that.

I'd still suggest that 1.5# of pale rather than adding that gravity through pils, wheat, or something else (like boostsr, I'm a HUGE fan of rye), will get lost. I've used a pils/pale mix in a blonde ale in the past purely to "cut" and soften the pils malt character, but I'm not sure there's any reason to do that in a saison -- pils works great in a saison. Like I said, if it were something as simple as only having 10# of pils on hand, or wanting an excuse to get rid of an extra 1.5# of pale that's sitting around, I don't think it negatively affects the recipe. I just don't think it positively affects it either.

My local bulk foods store - a chain called Bulk Barn which is mostly just big bins of flour, cereals, candies, nuts, seeds, dry fruit, etc, that you scoop into bags and pay by the pound - actually carries flaked spelt. If you have a similar store by you, you might want to give that a shot. I'll be using it in my upcoming saison in place of wheat in my favorite recipe. Also considering doing a Belgian Wit with spelt... it is, after all, just another type of wheat.

Also been thinking of trying khorasan wheat (aka Kamut) in a beer.

thanks for all the input I am new to recipe design and was looking for as much input as possible
I also heard the Trinity show on the brewing network that is what motivated me to brew this. there is also a great show on saisons with Peter hoyee on the brewing network. This is a new style for me and am excited to brew .FWI from what I understand acidulated malty adds a mild lactic flavor that is more pleasing than a sour mash in a saison

I've cultured some Yeast from a bottle of Fantome which gives a nice sour quality. Not exactly sure if it has bugs in it or not though. I also have been using teh Wyeast 3725 which lends a nice tart lemon like quality.

I have revised, I don't think the pale would add very much either, so I eliminated, made some other slight malt and hop changes also.

Batch Size: 6.10 gal
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Est Original Gravity: 1.58
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.5 %
Bitterness: 35.5 IBU
Est Color: 6.6 SRM

Amount
10 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (1.6 SRM) Grain 72.1 %
2 lbs Wheat - White Malt (1.5 SRM) Grain 14.4 %
1 lbs Munich Malt (8.3 SRM) Grain 7.2 %
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3.6 %
5.0 oz Acidulated (1.8 SRM) Grain 2.2 %
1.0 oz Carafa Special II (410 SRM) Grain 0.4 % <---- little bit of color
0.50 oz Styrian Goldings [4.60%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 5.9 IBU

1.50 oz Styrian Goldings [4.60%] (60 min) Hops 25.3 IBU
1.75 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00%] (5 min) Hops 4.3 IBU
1 Pkgs Belgian Saison Ale (Wyeast 3724) Yeast-Ale

Batch Sparge @ 148 for 75 min or until conversion

This seems a little more solid let me know what you think.
Any suggestion on fermentation temp.
Start low 68 and ramp up or just start in the high 70 like Dupont and ramp into the 85-90 degree range

Any recommendations for fermentation for the wyeast 3724
What are the different flavor profiles this yeast will create based on pitch and rise temp ?
I like Saison Dupont, so I may start ferment like they do just a little out of my comfort range