Plants vs. Rhizomes

max384 · Jan 19, 2014

I am definitely going to be growing hops this year for the first time. I've had a successful vegetable garden for the last two years, and figure adding hops will be a welcome addition to the garden.

I've found several sources for rhizomes, but I found one online store, High Hops, selling hop plants instead of rhizomes. According to the information they provide, buying plants seems far superior to buying rhizomes... However, they're obviously pretty biased in their recommendations. lol

If I can have a better harvest the first year for just a few bucks more, it would be well worth it for me. However, what do you guys say? Is it better to buy plants instead of rhizomes?

day_trippr · Jan 19, 2014

I don't think it's that cut and dried that transplanted crowns will be so much more productive than first year rhizomes as they still have to establish a root system, but if you're OK with paying the premium I'd go with the crowns...

Cheers!

PapaBearJay · Jan 20, 2014

max384 said:
I am definitely going to be growing hops this year for the first time. I've had a successful vegetable garden for the last two years, and figure adding hops will be a welcome addition to the garden.

I've found several sources for rhizomes, but I found one online store, High Hops, selling hop plants instead of rhizomes. According to the information they provide, buying plants seems far superior to buying rhizomes... However, they're obviously pretty biased in their recommendations. lol

If I can have a better harvest the first year for just a few bucks more, it would be well worth it for me. However, what do you guys say? Is it better to buy plants instead of rhizomes?

Yes and no.

It comes down to what you're trying to accomplish.

Generally those selling plants (High Hops is one, Great Lakes Hops is another.) have taken and rooted softwood-cuttings from mature plants (that may or may not be virus/disease-free) and grown them on to produce an entirely new plant. This process ~generally~ takes on the order of several months, but is also variety dependent. That is to say, some varieties seem to root and form a new crown and rhizome structure much easier than others, but some also seem to root even easier and take longer to form those same structures.

Rhizomes are essentially the same idea, only it's coming from an entirely different region of growth. A rhizome has active sites (buds) along the stem that are dormant until its growth is triggered.

Pros-
Plants have generally formed the crown and rhizomes, have generally been vernalized (this is a cold-treatment that induces flowering the following season), have had a period of dormancy that produces vigorous growth (plants need rest too!), have an established root system, and likely flower the first season. Also, the likelihood that your plant survives is much greater than a rhizome.

Rhizomes are cheaper, and have undergone the same period of cold-treatment that promotes both dormancy and vernalization. (This allows vigorous growth and flowering.)

Cons-
Plants are more expensive, they will generally suffer transplant shock (depending on when you're planting), and you still won't receive a full yield the first season.

Rhizomes generally don't grow large enough in one season to flower (a certain amount of growth is necessary to flower), they also need to establish a root system and grow shoots (bottom and top growth), and you likely won't receive a full yield until the third season. Rhizomes are generally planted two to a hill, this generally ensures that you receive at least one plant later on.

Things to keep in mind-
Always buy from a reputable source, rhizomes are not always checked for disease and pests, which can pose issues for you later on. Do the same for plants, and pests can easily transmit diseases and viruses among plants.

Keep costs in mind, you may have to buy more rhizomes than plants, so weigh your options.

Either way, you likely won't receive a full crop, so don't worry if you don't get much in your first season.

Feel free to ask any other questions, I hope I was able to help.

PBJ

TangoHotel · Jan 20, 2014

I inherited 3 plants, sunbeam, Willamette, and Nugget. All crowns. I got great yield first year with sunbeam and nugget, and almost noting off of the Willamette. Same soil, growing conditions, water, sun, everything. It depends also on the varietal that your growing.

I'll probably ditch the sunbeam this year, as it doesn't make a good bitter, flavor or aroma hop (it's an ornamental. Thankfully I didn't pay for it.) it was great though to learn how to grow on. I ended up getting a half pound out of it this season.

Fwiw, I'll be ordering plants from great Lakes this year to replace sunbeam and Willamette I don't think Ill have the patience for rhizomes.

max384 · Jan 20, 2014

PapaBearJay said:
Yes and no.

It comes down to what you're trying to accomplish.

Generally those selling plants (High Hops is one, Great Lakes Hops is another.) have taken and rooted softwood-cuttings from mature plants (that may or may not be virus/disease-free) and grown them on to produce an entirely new plant. This process ~generally~ takes on the order of several months, but is also variety dependent. That is to say, some varieties seem to root and form a new crown and rhizome structure much easier than others, but some also seem to root even easier and take longer to form those same structures.

Rhizomes are essentially the same idea, only it's coming from an entirely different region of growth. A rhizome has active sites (buds) along the stem that are dormant until its growth is triggered.

Pros-
Plants have generally formed the crown and rhizomes, have generally been vernalized (this is a cold-treatment that induces flowering the following season), have had a period of dormancy that produces vigorous growth (plants need rest too!), have an established root system, and likely flower the first season. Also, the likelihood that your plant survives is much greater than a rhizome.

Rhizomes are cheaper, and have undergone the same period of cold-treatment that promotes both dormancy and vernalization. (This allows vigorous growth and flowering.)

Cons-
Plants are more expensive, they will generally suffer transplant shock (depending on when you're planting), and you still won't receive a full yield the first season.

Rhizomes generally don't grow large enough in one season to flower (a certain amount of growth is necessary to flower), they also need to establish a root system and grow shoots (bottom and top growth), and you likely won't receive a full yield until the third season. Rhizomes are generally planted two to a hill, this generally ensures that you receive at least one plant later on.

Things to keep in mind-
Always buy from a reputable source, rhizomes are not always checked for disease and pests, which can pose issues for you later on. Do the same for plants, and pests can easily transmit diseases and viruses among plants.

Keep costs in mind, you may have to buy more rhizomes than plants, so weigh your options.

Either way, you likely won't receive a full crop, so don't worry if you don't get much in your first season.

Feel free to ask any other questions, I hope I was able to help.

PBJ

Thanks for such a detailed reply! If I'm understanding it correctly, it seems that the only real downside to buying plants is the cost? And with the recommendation to plant at least two rhizomes per mound to ensure at least one will survive, it seems that downside is completely negated. So, it seems buying plants is the way to go?

Also, I hadn't found Great Lakes Hops. Would you recommend one company (High Hops vs Great Lakes) over the other?

B-Hoppy · Jan 20, 2014

Been playing around with hops since the late 80's with most of my plantings being from rhizomes/transplanted crowns. This year I did some bartering with Great Lakes Hops and obtained about 6 different plants. For one reason or another, this took place in June which is seen as kind of late in the season for planting. The vigor and yield of the plants vs. rhizomes really blew me away. I've harvested up to 1/2 pound dried from some first year rhizome cuttings in the past, but the plants all performed much better in their inaugural season.

One tip on getting your rhizomes off to a good start is to leave a set of buds barely sticking out of the ground when planting (there should be at least two rings of buds on a legitimate cutting). Sometime last year, I happened to see a picture of a greenhouse with hundreds of potted rhizomes. Each pot had a portion of the rhizome poking out above the soil (vertical orientation like they weren't planted deep enough). I got to thinking and decided to give it a try. After a week there were numerous buds showing new growth. I think, perhaps, that those buds which were left exposed to the light were able to manage a little photosynthesis quicker than if they'd been kept in the dark (buried). Just an observation, Hop On~

PapaBearJay · Jan 20, 2014

max384 said:
Thanks for such a detailed reply! If I'm understanding it correctly, it seems that the only real downside to buying plants is the cost? And with the recommendation to plant at least two rhizomes per mound to ensure at least one will survive, it seems that downside is completely negated. So, it seems buying plants is the way to go?

Also, I hadn't found Great Lakes Hops. Would you recommend one company (High Hops vs Great Lakes) over the other?

I've not purchased from either, so I'm not really capable of making a reply. Everything I own I have either propagated myself, or received rhizomes. Though really, I'm sure whoever you go with will greatly appreciate your business.

PapaBearJay · Jan 20, 2014

max384 said:
Thanks for such a detailed reply! If I'm understanding it correctly, it seems that the only real downside to buying plants is the cost? And with the recommendation to plant at least two rhizomes per mound to ensure at least one will survive, it seems that downside is completely negated. So, it seems buying plants is the way to go?

Also, I hadn't found Great Lakes Hops. Would you recommend one company (High Hops vs Great Lakes) over the other?

This is what I get for being a "budding" plant scientist.

FuzzeWuzze · Jan 20, 2014

With proper management and proper soil when you plant them you can have good yields on the first year.

I only planted 6 tiny rhizomes, 2 of each type in the same hill an inch apart in case one died. I ended up getting over 1# of dry hops off those 3 plants...my cascade vines were easily nearly 30 feet long.

Once i started fertilizing them properly and consistently with MG during the growing and Super bloom during the flowering they took off.

This was my first year cascade, it hit the eaves which are about 20 feet, went left towards the other rhizome for another 5-6 feet over to the other plant, then i had to get out there and loop the vine back to the right and it went another 2-3 feet. As you can see it got so heavy it pulled the top rope down a good 2-3 feet. Thank god i drove like 24" garden stakes into each end or it would have torn my entire setup down. The rope was straight when the season started lol...made me realize i need another eye bolt in the middle to loop the top rope through.

Based on everything i read here i felt like i was way over watering them, i had the sprinklers on for 10 minutes every other night during the summer, or every night on the few 100+ days we saw....but they all seemed to do very well so im not going to change my attack this year!

B-Hoppy · Jan 22, 2014

max384 said:
Also, I hadn't found Great Lakes Hops. Would you recommend one company (High Hops vs Great Lakes) over the other?

This may help your decision if you're looking for plants: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f92/great-lakes-hops-high-hops-ordering-hop-crowns-334560/

max384 · Jan 22, 2014

B-Hoppy said:
Been playing around with hops since the late 80's with most of my plantings being from rhizomes/transplanted crowns. This year I did some bartering with Great Lakes Hops and obtained about 6 different plants. For one reason or another, this took place in June which is seen as kind of late in the season for planting. The vigor and yield of the plants vs. rhizomes really blew me away. I've harvested up to 1/2 pound dried from some first year rhizome cuttings in the past, but the plants all performed much better in their inaugural season.

One tip on getting your rhizomes off to a good start is to leave a set of buds barely sticking out of the ground when planting (there should be at least two rings of buds on a legitimate cutting). Sometime last year, I happened to see a picture of a greenhouse with hundreds of potted rhizomes. Each pot had a portion of the rhizome poking out above the soil (vertical orientation like they weren't planted deep enough). I got to thinking and decided to give it a try. After a week there were numerous buds showing new growth. I think, perhaps, that those buds which were left exposed to the light were able to manage a little photosynthesis quicker than if they'd been kept in the dark (buried). Just an observation, Hop On~

Thanks for posting your actual results between rhizomes and plants. I've definitely decided to purchase plants.

FuzzeWuzze said:
With proper management and proper soil when you plant them you can have good yields on the first year.

I only planted 6 tiny rhizomes, 2 of each type in the same hill an inch apart in case one died. I ended up getting over 1# of dry hops off those 3 plants...my cascade vines were easily nearly 30 feet long.

Once i started fertilizing them properly and consistently with MG during the growing and Super bloom during the flowering they took off.

This was my first year cascade, it hit the eaves which are about 20 feet, went left towards the other rhizome for another 5-6 feet over to the other plant, then i had to get out there and loop the vine back to the right and it went another 2-3 feet. As you can see it got so heavy it pulled the top rope down a good 2-3 feet. Thank god i drove like 24" garden stakes into each end or it would have torn my entire setup down. The rope was straight when the season started lol...made me realize i need another eye bolt in the middle to loop the top rope through.

Based on everything i read here i felt like i was way over watering them, i had the sprinklers on for 10 minutes every other night during the summer, or every night on the few 100+ days we saw....but they all seemed to do very well so im not going to change my attack this year!

Wow! That's impressive!

B-Hoppy said:
This may help your decision if you're looking for plants: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f92/great-lakes-hops-high-hops-ordering-hop-crowns-334560/

Thanks for posting this! After reading through that thread, I've decided on Great Lakes for my hop plants.

max384 · Jan 22, 2014

Well now that I've decided on buying plants from GLH... I've got a few other questions that hopefully you guys will be able to help me out with.

I need to decide between crowns or field grade plants. If I order now, I'll receive crowns. I'd like to plant inside as early as possible in larger pots and then transfer them outside once the threat of frost is gone. Is this doable? Or will the plants explode in growth too quickly and make this impractical? If it isn't the best idea to plant early inside and then move them outside, I may as well just order the field grade plants in the spring.

I also need to figure out which varieties to buy. Obviously it makes sense to buy what I brew with, but the only variety that I know I will definitely plant is Cascade, as I use it so often. However, I've been brewing many different styles of beer that I'm not entirely sure what else do grow. I think I've got room for about 3-4 varieties. Decisions. Decisions.

TangoHotel · Jan 22, 2014

Ill be keeping my nugget is year and ditching sunbeam and Willamette. I'll be picking up Cascade, Chinook, and Zeus.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

Greatlakeshops · Jan 23, 2014

This was a great summary for new growers unsure what route to go! Growth is very varietal specific. However, since our plants are typically at least 6 months old before we send them out, we think it gives them a huge advantage for cone development in the fall.

We've had a couple of commercial growers able to recoup the price of their entire plant order with the profit from the first season harvest of only half of their hops.

Thanks to everyone for all the great reviews! We are happy to work with the home brewing community.

PapaBearJay said:
Yes and no.

It comes down to what you're trying to accomplish.

Generally those selling plants (High Hops is one, Great Lakes Hops is another.) have taken and rooted softwood-cuttings from mature plants (that may or may not be virus/disease-free) and grown them on to produce an entirely new plant. This process ~generally~ takes on the order of several months, but is also variety dependent. That is to say, some varieties seem to root and form a new crown and rhizome structure much easier than others, but some also seem to root even easier and take longer to form those same structures.

Rhizomes are essentially the same idea, only it's coming from an entirely different region of growth. A rhizome has active sites (buds) along the stem that are dormant until its growth is triggered.

Pros-
Plants have generally formed the crown and rhizomes, have generally been vernalized (this is a cold-treatment that induces flowering the following season), have had a period of dormancy that produces vigorous growth (plants need rest too!), have an established root system, and likely flower the first season. Also, the likelihood that your plant survives is much greater than a rhizome.

Rhizomes are cheaper, and have undergone the same period of cold-treatment that promotes both dormancy and vernalization. (This allows vigorous growth and flowering.)

Cons-
Plants are more expensive, they will generally suffer transplant shock (depending on when you're planting), and you still won't receive a full yield the first season.

Rhizomes generally don't grow large enough in one season to flower (a certain amount of growth is necessary to flower), they also need to establish a root system and grow shoots (bottom and top growth), and you likely won't receive a full yield until the third season. Rhizomes are generally planted two to a hill, this generally ensures that you receive at least one plant later on.

Things to keep in mind-
Always buy from a reputable source, rhizomes are not always checked for disease and pests, which can pose issues for you later on. Do the same for plants, and pests can easily transmit diseases and viruses among plants.

Keep costs in mind, you may have to buy more rhizomes than plants, so weigh your options.

Either way, you likely won't receive a full crop, so don't worry if you don't get much in your first season.

Feel free to ask any other questions, I hope I was able to help.

PBJ

Hopfarmer · Jan 26, 2014

I have over 8 acres of hops on my farm and manage another 20 I have been selling Rhizomes for the past 6 years on this site. Unless you are getting meristem disease free plants there is really no reason to get a rooted tip cutting. There are only 2 places in the country that are doing this process. We will be the 3rd this year. A rhizome from a disease free plant is a better start. The only reason commercial growers plant 4 to 6 rhizomes to a hill is so they can push them to get a 1st year crop. High Alpha hops can produce 80 % the first year.http://www.cliffsnotes.com/sciences/biology/plant-biology/tissues/meristematic-tissues Meristem cuttings are totally disease and virus free and grow like a 1st generation plant. Clones as some may know lose vigor after several successions.

max384 · Jan 26, 2014

Hopfarmer said:
I have over 8 acres of hops on my farm and manage another 20 I have been selling Rhizomes for the past 6 years on this site. Unless you are getting meristem disease free plants there is really no reason to get a rooted tip cutting. There are only 2 places in the country that are doing this process. We will be the 3rd this year. A rhizome from a disease free plant is a better start. The only reason commercial growers plant 4 to 6 rhizomes to a hill is so they can push them to get a 1st year crop. High Alpha hops can produce 80 % the first year.http://www.cliffsnotes.com/sciences/biology/plant-biology/tissues/meristematic-tissues Meristem cuttings are totally disease and virus free and grow like a 1st generation plant. Clones as some may know lose vigor after several successions.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9kCPO7oMf8

Could you respond to the claims on better growth rates during the first year with a rooted plant as compared to a rhizome? Because you say there is no reason to get a rooted tip cutting... But that seems like a damn good reason to me.

PapaBearJay · Jan 27, 2014

Hopfarmer said:
I have over 8 acres of hops on my farm and manage another 20 I have been selling Rhizomes for the past 6 years on this site. Unless you are getting meristem disease free plants there is really no reason to get a rooted tip cutting. There are only 2 places in the country that are doing this process. We will be the 3rd this year. A rhizome from a disease free plant is a better start. The only reason commercial growers plant 4 to 6 rhizomes to a hill is so they can push them to get a 1st year crop. High Alpha hops can produce 80 % the first year.http://www.cliffsnotes.com/sciences/biology/plant-biology/tissues/meristematic-tissues Meristem cuttings are totally disease and virus free and grow like a 1st generation plant. Clones as some may know lose vigor after several successions.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9kCPO7oMf8

Anytime you asexually propagate a plant, be it through rhizome divisions or meristem cuttings, you have a clone (and that loss in vigor may actually be a result of virus-accumulation, look at Cascade, its been around for 40 years and it's still going strong). Meristem culture provide disease free plants because the actively-dividing tissues in the meristem have not formed the cell channels that older tissues have formed after having differentiated (viruses enter cells via channels known as plasmodesmata, which link the cytoplasms of cells together). So, while the process may be more intensive, you are almost (you first have to identify that you've cultured virus-free material, which requires serological testing for virus-proteins, or use of a scanning electron microscope) guaranteed disease-free plants as compared to rhizomes (even in a clean field, because there are so many vectors that can easily transmit disease and infect plant material).

So, source is truly a factor, and most whole-plants/crowns have undergone the natural processes needed to flower in the first year, and therefore will receive an appreciable yield as compared to rhizomes. If a grower is plants 4-6 rhizomes per hill, they're spending as much as a plant and that makes absolutely no sense in the long run....as 4-6 new plants will create a competition for nutrients and result in a net decrease in yield.

philw86 · Feb 3, 2014

I ordered some rhizomes from another retailer, then decided I didn't want to wait to start them. Got some crowns from Great Lakes...they sent an extra Spalt (off to a slower start). Tossed them in some HD buckets. 10 days later...

:rockin: :rockin: :ban:

:rockin::rockin:

highgravitybacon · Feb 20, 2014

max384 said:
Well now that I've decided on buying plants from GLH... I've got a few other questions that hopefully you guys will be able to help me out with.

I need to decide between crowns or field grade plants. If I order now, I'll receive crowns. I'd like to plant inside as early as possible in larger pots and then transfer them outside once the threat of frost is gone. Is this doable? Or will the plants explode in growth too quickly and make this impractical? If it isn't the best idea to plant early inside and then move them outside, I may as well just order the field grade plants in the spring.

I also need to figure out which varieties to buy. Obviously it makes sense to buy what I brew with, but the only variety that I know I will definitely plant is Cascade, as I use it so often. However, I've been brewing many different styles of beer that I'm not entirely sure what else do grow. I think I've got room for about 3-4 varieties. Decisions. Decisions.

I am not a garden jedi. However, I don't like to transplant things any more than necessary. Last year, I ordered 4 crowns from GLH. One or two of them was "field grade" the other "home grade" or whatever the nomenclature. I noticed no difference in first-year performance amongst the four that wasn't better explained by the growth differences in the plant genetics itself. The only reason I chose "field grade" was due to availabity at the time I ordered.

I would *strongly* encourage you attempt to match your growing climate and disease exposure to the plants. In my case the advice was to get triploids that have resistance to powdery / downy mildew and something resistant to wilt unless you want to hit them with fungicide at regular intervals. I did not do this and as a result, did battle with some mildew during the year. GLH will be glad to suggest a variety suitable for your climate. I have no comment on any particular vendor, except say I would not hesitate to get crowns again from them.

Greatlakeshops · Feb 28, 2014

max384 said:
Could you respond to the claims on better growth rates during the first year with a rooted plant as compared to a rhizome? Because you say there is no reason to get a rooted tip cutting... But that seems like a damn good reason to me.

I can... Rhizomes typically come with 2 to 4 crown bud nodes per stick. Sometimes you can find a rhizome with more. The bigger problem gets to be making sure your rhizomes come from a trusted source. If you get them directly from a farmer you will have better luck than if you order them from a reseller more than likely.

Many of our hop plants come with a dozen or more crown buds at the base of the plant. Some of them may even have rhizomes that have grown in the pots over the winter. Those get included with the plant when you order for no extra charge.

Paying to put 5 rhizomes in a the hill when you can plant one transplant with the same result really doesn't make any sense. Rhizomes cannot be visually inspected for diseases or viruses which is different then our hop transplants which constantly get visually inspected for growing issues on site.

There is absolutely no advantage to go with a rhizome other than cost savings. There are at least a half dozen reasons for going with a hop transplant over a rhizome though. Most of the commercial hopyards now start with plants instead of rhizomes. Many of the research universities that we work with will also no longer recommend rhizomes unless you are on a tight budget. The University of Vermont lost 30 acres a couple years back because their rhizomes were no good. So just be careful and make sure you trust your source.

By the way.. There is no such thing as a disease or virus free plant. Anyone who claims this is being misleading. Instead our mother plants are purchased through clean plant networks as 'Virus Indexed' stock. I've done some research, and I believe we have the most mature virus indexed plants available on the market.

Plants vs. Rhizomes

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