The original Lager thread.. Everything you ever wanted to know or ask

Light or dark, I love lagers. I love brewing them and especially drinking them. Some of them come out good , even very good. Some I brew might not be as good as they should be. I'm so critical of my lagers styles. I see so many posts about lagers. Questions, issues. I hope we can keep them all in one thread and try and have all our questions answered.

I don't make too many lagers any more, but I usually have a few.

I think, aside from bigger starters and possibly doing a decoction, that they're very much like ales. I don't treat them all that differently, aside from different fermentation temperatures and the lagering phase.

Is it really that important to get off the yeast cake early? I always leave my ales in primary for 4-8 weeks or even longer. Will this be detrimental to a lager? What if after fermentation I crank down to lagering temps for a few weeks more prior to racking?

I'll start. It's the consistency that pisses me off. I have a freezer for fermenting and a freezer for lagering. Also, my yeast count is right on. I seem to have everything I need to make a consistent lager beer. I'm trying to duplicate beers that have been brewed for hundreds of years, but I can't get it totally down. Sorry all, I just tapped a keg. It's good, but not where I think it should be.

megalomani said:

Is it really that important to get off the yeast cake early? I always leave my ales in primary for 4-8 weeks or even longer. Will this be detrimental to a lager? What if after fermentation I crank down to lagering temps for a few weeks more prior to racking?

Click to expand...

It depends on what your preferences are.

I dislike a long primary, even for ales, as I can pick up a flavor imparted by the yeast. Some people prefer that, though. So if you like the flavor of the yeast in an 8 week primary, you probably won't mind it in a lager. I'm the other way- I want my lagers super "clean" and crisp, and without yeast character.

I leave both ales and lagers in primary about 10 days or so, normally.

There was a podcast by Basic Brewing Radio that did an experiment with a traditional short primary and secondary, a slightly extended primary only, and a long (month) primary. This was only for ales, but the interesting thing was that there were differences and it was about even on what the preferences were! Some really preferred the longer primary, while just as many did not. All said they were different, though!

I would extrapolate that to lagers as well. If you like the flavor imparted by a lenghty primary for ales, you very while may like that with a lager as well.

Bulls Beers said:

I'll start. It's the consistency that pisses me off. I have a freezer for fermenting and a freezer for lagering. Also, my yeast count is right on. I seem to have everything I need to make a consistent lager beer. I'm trying to duplicate beers that have been brewed for hundreds of years, but I can't get it totally down. Sorry all, I just tapped a keg. It's good, but not where I think it should be.

Click to expand...

Is that different from your ales? Aside from fermentation temperatures, the actual process is basically the same.

It could be water related, if you're trying to make light lagers and having some "not quite right" results.

Bulls Beers said:

I'll start. It's the consistency that pisses me off. I have a freezer for fermenting and a freezer for lagering. Also, my yeast count is right on. I seem to have everything I need to make a consistent lager beer. I'm trying to duplicate beers that have been brewed for hundreds of years, but I can't get it totally down. Sorry all, I just tapped a keg. It's good, but not where I think it should be.

Click to expand...

As Yooper said, it could be your water.

Having solid fermentation temperature control is definitely critical to brewing lagers and it sounds like you've got that under control.

The other impact aspects to lagers are pitching a lot of active and healthy yeast, and also aerating your wort. Are you doing this?

Darwin18 said:

As Yooper said, it could be your water.

Having solid fermentation temperature control is definitely critical to brewing lagers and it sounds like you've got that under control.

The other impact aspects to lagers are pitching a lot of active and healthy yeast, and also aerating your wort. Are you doing this?

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm pitching the proper yeast count. I believe so anyway. As far as water, The style calls for a water that is hard, but my local water is soft. When I mash I'm doing my proper additions.

Don't get me wrong, I love my beers that I brew. It's just when I drink some of my favorites like Augustiner and Weihenstephaner, my beer seems somewhat off. Whether it's the smoothness or just not right. It's frustrating when you think you have it down and you don't.. Fermentation temp, yeast count, water and time..Ugh!!

These breweries have been brewing beer for hundreds of years. I've been brewing for 8. I have a little catching up to do I guess...

Actually, most lagers don't call for "hard" water so maybe some of your additions aren't exactly right? Just a thought! We can help with a water profile if you want, as when I make lagers my additions to RO water really are minimal. Sulfate in the brewing water can make noble hops sort of harsh and "not quite right" tasting.

Yooper, I'm going to be brewing an Oktoberfest (extract) tomorrow using RO water, and would love to hear your suggestions for a water profile.

FWIW, I did a three step starter of 2124 to get up over 424B cells called for, and will be fermenting in a water bath in my 57 degree basement.

Thanks in advance.

Yooper said:

Actually, most lagers don't call for "hard" water so maybe some of your additions aren't exactly right? Just a thought! We can help with a water profile if you want, as when I make lagers my additions to RO water really are minimal. Sulfate in the brewing water can make noble hops sort of harsh and "not quite right" tasting.

Click to expand...

I'm trying to perfect a Munich Helles. I've read that the water in Munich is hard.

MikeInMKE said:

Yooper, I'm going to be brewing an Oktoberfest (extract) tomorrow using RO water, and would love to hear your suggestions for a water profile.

FWIW, I did a three step starter of 2124 to get up over 424B cells called for, and will be fermenting in a water bath in my 57 degree basement.

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Straight RO water is fine, especially for an extract Oktoberfest. If you really wanted to do something, you could add a teaspoon of calcium chloride, but it's not necessary.

Bulls Beers said:

I'm trying to perfect a Munich Helles. I've read that the water in Munich is hard.

Click to expand...

Actually, the preferred water for a helles is soft! Here's some info from Kai Troester's website: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Various_water_recipes#very_soft_water

Straight RO it is! Thank you.

I'll pick up calcium chloride the next time I'm at the LHBS.

Yooper said:

Actually, the preferred water for a helles is soft! Here's some info from Kai Troester's website: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Various_water_recipes#very_soft_water

Click to expand...

I use RO water in my brews. I'm gonna try Kai's recipe and see how different it comes out than mine. I really want to nail down this style and consistently brew it.

Yooper said:

I dislike a long primary, even for ales, as I can pick up a flavor imparted by the yeast.

Click to expand...

Anyway you can be more specific about "a flavor"?

Hermit said:

Anyway you can be more specific about "a flavor"?

Click to expand...

It's a definite yeast character. I can taste it in ales that have spent a long time in the primary, too. I know some people actually prefer that, and preach a "month in primary" but I don't like it. It takes away from the "clean" finish in my opinion.

Yooper said:

It's a definite yeast character. I can taste it in ales that have spent a long time in the primary, too. I know some people actually prefer that, and preach a "month in primary" but I don't like it. It takes away from the "clean" finish in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Interesting as people seem to think the yeast spend a month 'cleaning up after themselves' implying a cleaner beer.

Hermit said:

Interesting as people seem to think the yeast spend a month 'cleaning up after themselves' implying a cleaner beer.

Click to expand...

Yes, but I think that's a very vocal minority. I don't think you'll hear that from most of the more experienced brewers, and I hear it on this forum repeated incessently but only by a minority.

The "clean up" phase of the yeast's life cycle is about 24 hours or so, at the tail end of primary fermentation. That's when the preferred fermentable sugars are gone, and then the yeast will go after the less preferential sugars (like maltiose) and then finally start to digest their own waste products when fermentables are gone. This certainly doesn't take all that long- maybe a day or two after FG is reached is a safe bet to ensure it's finished and clearing starts.

Interestingly, Basic Brewing Radio did an experiment a couple of years ago with the same recipe and doing a traditional "primary/secondary", primary only short term, and primary only long term.

All people noted differences in the final beer. The interesting part of that was some preferred the shorter time in the fermenter, while nearly as many preferred the longer time in the fermenter. So it really is personal preference, as some definitely do find the long primary preferable!

Can you explain at what point/steps you guys take to do your diacetyl rest? I am at at 1.019 on my American pilsner, estimated FG being 1.016. I bumped my fermentation chamber/kegerator to 55 degrees, allowing it to slowly warm up. At what temp do you warm it up to and over how long? Then rack to secondary? Fermented for 7 days so far, overpitched by about 20 billion cells per yeastcalc.com, aerated with pure O2 for 60 secs, and pitched at 52 degrees, and has held between 50 and 52 degrees during fermentation also.

Any help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Ryan

Generally, the diacetyl rest is done when the beer is 75% of the way to FG, or usually about 1.020. So it's definitely ok to do it now.

I let it sit until it's completely finished (usually 24 hours once it gets to 65 degrees), and then taste for diacetyl. If there is none, I rack and lager. If there is any hint at all of diacetyl, I extend the diacetyl rest.

It's not always necessary to do a diacetyl rest, but until you're comfortable with the process and how diacetyl tastes, it's fine to do one as a matter of course.

There are those who cannot detect diacetyl at all- they just are genetically unable to. But some can detect diactetyl in very small amounts. As a tip, in small amounts diacetyl is more of a slick feeling on the tongue, or oily. It feels like it's coating your teeth a little. If you don't do the diacetyl rest then, it will get worse and can be a butterbomb after lagering. So do one if you're unsure!

Hey Yooper, I'm gonna do Kai's Helles recipe. On his hop additions, what amount is 0.2g/l?

Yooper said:

Generally, the diacetyl rest is done when the beer is 75% of the way to FG, or usually about 1.020. So it's definitely ok to do it now.

I let it sit until it's completely finished (usually 24 hours once it gets to 65 degrees), and then taste for diacetyl. If there is none, I rack and lager. If there is any hint at all of diacetyl, I extend the diacetyl rest.

It's not always necessary to do a diacetyl rest, but until you're comfortable with the process and how diacetyl tastes, it's fine to do one as a matter of course.

There are those who cannot detect diacetyl at all- they just are genetically unable to. But some can detect diactetyl in very small amounts. As a tip, in small amounts diacetyl is more of a slick feeling on the tongue, or oily. It feels like it's coating your teeth a little. If you don't do the diacetyl rest then, it will get worse and can be a butterbomb after lagering. So do one if you're unsure!

Click to expand...

Awesome! Thanks for the info! It is warming up now, and I will leave it for a day or so at around 65 degrees, rack, then into the fridge again to lager for a month or two. Did taste a little like corn, but considering the recipe called for flaked corn, I should expect it. Did not taste buttery at all that I was aware of. Did not think it had an oily "feel" to it either, but I was not necessarily looking for it. Oh well, what can a few days at a higher temperature hurt? Will hope for the best!

Does it make a difference when you start the lagering, to either drop the temp to 32 slowly by 2-3 degrees or cold crash it down? I usually drop the temp slow. It's takes about a week to get it to lagering temps.

I usually transfer to the keg to carb and lager at the same time. Haven't noticed any problems by moving directly to lagering temperatures.

Bulls Beers said:

Does it make a difference when you start the lagering, to either drop the temp to 32 slowly by 2-3 degrees or cold crash it down? I usually drop the temp slow. It's takes about a week to get it to lagering temps.

Click to expand...

John Palmer claims it is best to slowly drop the temp, in order to keep the yeast interested on the way down. That being said, I cold crash as my fermentation chamber is usually occupied with the next batch, so my only option is to keg and stick in the keggerator.

Agree with you Chessking. I take a lot of what Palmer claims with a grain of salt - he knows quite a bit about brewing but he is not the final word!

I've always dropped the temp 2 or 3 degrees until I hit 32, but I have a Bo dunkel that I'm going drop much faster. I just can't get to the point where I crash to lager temps.

Yeah, he (John) will get you in the neighborhood, and then its up to you. In a perfect world I'd have a dedicated lagering chamber and could try it out to see if there was a difference, but SWMBO is quite adamant that my current collection of refrigerators is big enough.

chessking said:

Yeah, he (John) will get you in the neighborhood, and then its up to you. In a perfect world I'd have a dedicated lagering chamber and could try it out to see if there was a difference, but SWMBO is quite adamant that my current collection of refrigerators is big enough.

Click to expand...

Ha, Mine is a space issue. I have a chest freezer for fermenting and one for lagering. My lagering freezer only holds 4 kegs. I need a bigger freezer.

Bulls Beers said:

Does it make a difference when you start the lagering, to either drop the temp to 32 slowly by 2-3 degrees or cold crash it down? I usually drop the temp slow. It's takes about a week to get it to lagering temps.

Click to expand...

I asked the same question here when I did my first lager a few months ago. The collective wisdom suggested it doesn't matter if you drop the temp fast or slow. I've done 3 lagers now, after I do the d-rest I drop it down to 34-35F over about 12 hrs.

Should you pitch your starter at lager temps or can you pitch it at room temp when making a lager? I usually pitch at room temp, but I read it's not optimal..

I'm not usually worried about my starter temps as much I'm concerned with the temperature of the wort. I usually chill the wort to 4 - 5 degrees below my target fermentation temperature, pitch the room temp starter, set the temperature controller to my target temp, and allow it to ferment and warm to that temperature.

I'm jumping in the lager thread late, but I enjoy the heck out of lagers.

Bulls Beers said:

Should you pitch your starter at lager temps or can you pitch it at room temp when making a lager? I usually pitch at room temp, but I read it's not optimal..

Click to expand...

Pitch cold, without a doubt. The starter you can make at room temp, but pitch it into cold wort. My method, I make my starter at least a week in advance, and crash cool it in the fridge for several days. When I pitch, I take the starter out and decant the starter beer and immediately pitch into my cooled and aerated wort. The starter is colder than the wort, but only by 10 degrees or so.

Bulls Beers, for a helles, definitely follow Kai's advice and look into the water primer too. I make a fantastic helles thanks to these two resources. I use mostly distilled water, a little calcium chloride, and acid malt (I think the acid malt adds some flavor in addition to adjusting the pH, so I think it's necessary). I swear when I take a sip of my helles, if I close my eyes, I'm sitting in Marienplatz outside of Augustiner. Two batches in a row have been identical to my palate.

Good stuff in this thread.

I just got into Home brewing and my first 2 batches were both lagers. Due to the cold temps in my basement and workshop they seemed the best beers to start with since I could ferment in the basement and then move to the workshop for cold storage. My Schwarzbier is going to be going to the secondary this weekend and then spend a month lagering before bottling. When I do bottle will I need to repitch any yeast? Or should I be ok with what is left in the beer at that time. I have an Oktoberfest that will be lagering for 6 weeks, should I add yeast to it before bottling?

StoneHands said:

I'm jumping in the lager thread late, but I enjoy the heck out of lagers.



Pitch cold, without a doubt. The starter you can make at room temp, but pitch it into cold wort. My method, I make my starter at least a week in advance, and crash cool it in the fridge for several days. When I pitch, I take the starter out and decant the starter beer and immediately pitch into my cooled and aerated wort. The starter is colder than the wort, but only by 10 degrees or so.

Bulls Beers, for a helles, definitely follow Kai's advice and look into the water primer too. I make a fantastic helles thanks to these two resources. I use mostly distilled water, a little calcium chloride, and acid malt (I think the acid malt adds some flavor in addition to adjusting the pH, so I think it's necessary). I swear when I take a sip of my helles, if I close my eyes, I'm sitting in Marienplatz outside of Augustiner. Two batches in a row have been identical to my palate.

Good stuff in this thread.

Click to expand...

Awe man, I love that place and IMHO, the best beer in the world.. I also have a soft spot for the Augustiner Keller. One of my favorite places in the world to drink a beer. I'm pretty excited to see how this one turns out.. If my beer comes close to what you say, I'll be a very happy homebrewer..I've been trying to perfect a nice Helles. Mine turn out pretty good, but I need better. Kai lives fairly close to me, so It would be nice to brew a batch with him.

Garou24 said:

I just got into Home brewing and my first 2 batches were both lagers. Due to the cold temps in my basement and workshop they seemed the best beers to start with since I could ferment in the basement and then move to the workshop for cold storage. My Schwarzbier is going to be going to the secondary this weekend and then spend a month lagering before bottling. When I do bottle will I need to repitch any yeast? Or should I be ok with what is left in the beer at that time. I have an Oktoberfest that will be lagering for 6 weeks, should I add yeast to it before bottling?

Click to expand...

Adding yeast isn't necessary before bottling a lager, nor will it hurt. I bottled a doppelbock several years ago that had lagered for over 6 months and didn't add any fresh yeast. Granted, it took about 3-4 months to carb up, but it finally did. 4-6 weeks of lagering, I think it's very unnecessary to add additional yeast, it'll carb up in normal time. Anything longer than 3 months or so of lagering, still not necessary, but you'd probably get faster carbonation if you added it.

StoneHands said:

Adding yeast isn't necessary before bottling a lager, nor will it hurt. I bottled a doppelbock several years ago that had lagered for over 6 months and didn't add any fresh yeast. Granted, it took about 3-4 months to carb up, but it finally did. 4-6 weeks of lagering, I think it's very unnecessary to add additional yeast, it'll carb up in normal time. Anything longer than 3 months or so of lagering, still not necessary, but you'd probably get faster carbonation if you added it.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the quick reply!

StoneHands said:

Adding yeast isn't necessary before bottling a lager, nor will it hurt. I bottled a doppelbock several years ago that had lagered for over 6 months and didn't add any fresh yeast. Granted, it took about 3-4 months to carb up, but it finally did. 4-6 weeks of lagering, I think it's very unnecessary to add additional yeast, it'll carb up in normal time. Anything longer than 3 months or so of lagering, still not necessary, but you'd probably get faster carbonation if you added it.

Click to expand...

I agree.

But, it won't hurt to add some yeast either. You can add 1/3 of a package of a dry yeast (like nottingham) to the cooled priming solution in the bottling bucket, stir it well, and then rack the beer into it. It guarantees an even and fast (relatively) carbing.

Yooper said:

I agree.

But, it won't hurt to add some yeast either. You can add 1/3 of a package of a dry yeast (like nottingham) to the cooled priming solution in the bottling bucket, stir it well, and then rack the beer into it. It guarantees an even and fast (relatively) carbing.

Click to expand...

Will adding ale yeast to a lager for carbing purposes introduce any ale flavors?