Will switching to AG alleviate that "homebrew" taste?

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Mikey_Dawg said:
Does one ice bath usually keep the batch cool enough through fermentation (with room temps around 70-72)...or will I need to refresh the ice?
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I freeze large-ish sized soda bottles of water, and change them out once a day. I float a thermometer in the water bath (along with a tablespoon of bleach to avoid mold growth in my cooler) and I have a homemade foam lid to insulate it.

Here's a photo:
4189-dscf0002-9590.jpg
 
Yooper said:
Chloramines will boil off, eventually, but you'd run out of water first! I think it's something like hours, not minutes, to boil off chloramine. I have read some sources that say it can be boiled off more readily, but sources I trust say not.
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AJ Delange? I dropped his paper on this subject into my dropbox for your persusal. I was wrong about how long it took to reduce. From his experiments, it takes about 60 minutes to reduce the chloramines to less than 1% of its starting concentration. Hard to say what the "taste threshold" is for chloramines and the resulting chlorophenols, but I'd guess that 1% would be more than sufficient.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7cy2uzdsx86ogtx/BT_Chlorine.pdf
 
It absolutely will, I have made great beer using both methods but the all grain beers are more similar in quality to a micro brew, much fresher without that twang. Kegging seemed to help too, that way you can dial in your carbonation which I feel makes a big difference.
 
mjohnson said:
I'm guessing its due to fermentation. I was in your shoes. Once I started making starters, using pure O2, and controlling fermentation temps, my beers started tasting as good as commercial beers (once and a while, better). If ambient temp is 70, then the fermentation is likely going higher than that (it produces heat) which could cause flavor issues. Switching to all-grain won't fix that.

I've had some really good beers made with extract. It is possible. I'd get your fermentation processes in check before you switch to all-grain (but then I'd switch to all grain - its super fun).
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I'd say this is your number one reason for that "taste"; I'd also chime in that you want to pitch at least as cold as your ferementation temperature... "65ish"... A water batch with rotating Freezer bottles would do wonders for you as well
 
My .02
If you go through winning entries of the national Homebrew competition you will see many award winning beers made solely with extract so if all your processes are good you too can produce award winning beers with extract only or PM.

After reading through this thread I would focus on your fermentation temperatures first, cleaning and sanitizing your keg set up: by this I mean you should be taking everything apart periodically and taking care of everything! Even the towers and connections, you'll be surprised what you find:) Third, have your water tested and make adjustments as necessary.

In this order I think you will see a marked improvement in your final product!
 
passedpawn said:
AJ Delange? I dropped his paper on this subject into my dropbox for your persusal. I was wrong about how long it took to reduce. From his experiments, it takes about 60 minutes to reduce the chloramines to less than 1% of its starting concentration. Hard to say what the "taste threshold" is for chloramines and the resulting chlorophenols, but I'd guess that 1% would be more than sufficient.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7cy2uzdsx86ogtx/BT_Chlorine.pdf
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It's WAY over my head, but I don't see where it takes 60 minutes of boiling to get to 1% of its starting concentration. I see that he broke it into half-lives, and it looks like in some cases that the boiling was for like 10 hours. I don't think it's as simple as "1 hour of boiling reduces chloramines to 1% of its start" but of course I'm not even close to understanding all of the equations!
 
Yooper said:
It's WAY over my head, but I don't see where it takes 60 minutes of boiling to get to 1% of its starting concentration. I see that he broke it into half-lives, and it looks like in some cases that the boiling was for like 10 hours. I don't think it's as simple as "1 hour of boiling reduces chloramines to 1% of its start" but of course I'm not even close to understanding all of the equations!
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The take-away there is the half life of the chloramines, which is the time it takes for the concentration to cut in half, is between 6 and 10 minutes. This graph is from that paper, but since the Y axis was log concentration (logarithmic) I've replaced that with percentage. I also moved the time scale to start with the boil which makes more sense I think. You can see from the graph that the chloramine level is reduced below 1% after about 45 minutes of the boil. Apparently AJ's system took well over an hour to reach the boil, but that wasn't relevant to the discussion. Pretty cool data I think.

chloramine-boil-reduction-56122.png
 
Mikey_Dawg said:
......Probably start with a simple BIAB setup to get the ball rolling. But right now, I am building my brewing domain in my basement so I want to get that done first.
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Now you're talking.. Try an AG BIAB and see what changes!
 
Mikey_Dawg said:
Could this taste develop as the beer ages? That was my first thought when I tasted it as I simple dont recall the taste when the beer was more fresh.
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If you use pellet hops, try whole hops instead. That cleared up my problem.

Ever since I've started kegging, I noticed my beer would taste great for the first couple of days, then over the course of a couple weeks would take on a harsh bite/twang. This off flavor would persist up to a month or two, after which the beer would suddenly taste fantastic. Of course, the keg would usually be nearly empty by that point.

I narrowed it down to hop particles from the pellets. Dozens of people have told me they don't have this problem. They told me to rack carefully to avoid getting hop gunk in the fermenter, ditto for keg, and to let it sit for a few days in the keg to let everything settle and then to dump the first pint or two. I've done all of these things, and none of them helped. I don't know what it is about my process that apparently makes me prone to this problem where others aren't, but switching to whole hops definitely fixed it for me.
 
Mikey_Dawg said:
I've been brewing for almost 7 years now and have gotten pretty decent at it but I have never moved past partial mash brews. Even still, at times I still get that "homebrew" taste that reminds me that I am not producing commerical quality beers just yet.

The "homebrew" taste is more evident in some beers than others and IMO seems to get worse the longer I keep my beer stays in the keg.

Will going to AG minimize that taste I am referring to? I plan to do it very soon, but am trying to wrap up a huge basement /bar project I've been working on all year first. Thoughts?
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The "homebrew' taste to which your are alluding can in some cases be aggravated by extract brewing but extract brewing is not necessarily the problem. Most extract homebrewers are doing partial boils and this alone can cause the "caramelly", too sweet flavor that many of us have encountered. A full boil brew combined with proper wort chilling will dramatically improve most extract beers.

Off flavors, particularly phenolic which is very common, are usually tied to improper sanitation and/or poor temperature control and/or underpitching yeast. Bad recipes are another common culprit. While it doesn't seem to happen as much as in years past (I'm an old SOB and have run across a lot of bad homebrew) there are still lots of awful recipes out there and making one without realizing its deficiencies will not make a quality beer even with good technique.

Anyways, all things being equal and not to start any debate, assuming you are already applying the best techniques, ingredients and recipes if you switch to AG you could make better beer. However, if you have a problem in the process and do not fix it simply going AG isn't going to bring you the cure. :mug:
 
Mikey_Dawg said:
You are correct. I really am happy with 95% of the beers Ive made over the past 4 or 5 years when I really felt like I got past the learning curve of home brewing (at least in the partial mash style).

Last night I poured a couple strawberry blondes that I made a few months back and A) It was excellent B) I did not notice this taste.

I also have a Rye Pale Ale on draft that I had a week or so ago (that is even older than the SB) and when I poured one of those I did notice the taste we are discussing. I still drank the beer and enjoyed it very much but if I had any complaint about the beer, that would be it. I dont recall noticing it with a Cascade IPA I have on draft right now though.

Could this taste develop as the beer ages? That was my first thought when I tasted it as I simple dont recall the taste when the beer was more fresh.

At the end of the day, all I was really asking is will AG batches improve my homebrew vs. extract. This is the only complaint I have about my beer and like I've pointed out, I dont notice it more times than I do which really only makes it harder to pinpoint.

I've got some good info out of the discussion though. I am planning on moving to AG regardless sometime in the next year as it is long past due. Probably start with a simple BIAB setup to get the ball rolling. But right now, I am building my brewing domain in my basement so I want to get that done first.
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I have read the thread and did not realize how prevelant the homebrew taste is. I will monitor my own brews. For this as I progress into AG. Thanks for the education. :mug:
Susie
 
Are you racking to a secondary fermenter? I am just getting started on brewing but this seems to keep the beer off the trub to avoid off flavors. I suppose if you still have trub or excessive yeast left in the beer when you keg it, it could agitate again and start doing who knows what.
 
1. Process
2. Sanitation
3. Quality of products

I don't think going from extract to all grain will necessarily make better beers if the above items are not aligned. You do however have more control in what you are making. Who knows what went into the DME or LME that you are buying. Like stated above though, many have won awards with extract brewing. The thing that is nice about AG is that you know everything that went into that beer. One thing I have noticed in some of my beers is an off flavor that I do not care about. I went back through my notes and I am trying to pinpoint the problem and I believe it is Cascade hops. I'm not a big fan of Hoppy beers, but I noticed I am not too paticular about beers with cascade. something about it just stands out

One thing to try would be to make two identical beers, one all grain and one with extract, then do a blind taste test. it's amazing how much your percetion changes when you don't visually "see" what you are drinkng.
 
BigEd said:
Anyways, all things being equal and not to start any debate, assuming you are already applying the best techniques, ingredients and recipes if you switch to AG you could make better beer. However, if you have a problem in the process and do not fix it simply going AG isn't going to bring you the cure. :mug:
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I wouldn't make that assumption. In fact, I would suggest if he's making bad beer with extract, he will make REALLY bad beer with AG. The AG process complicates things tremendously. I brewed extract for 20 years before going AG in the Spring of 2011. I was making consistently awesome brews in my opinion with extract. Only switched to AG to add more excitement to my brewing. :) My advice is for him to fix his "homebrew" taste problem (whatever that mean) before switching to AG.
 
FirstStateBrewer said:
I wouldn't make that assumption. In fact, I would suggest if he's making bad beer with extract, he will make REALLY bad beer with AG. The AG process complicates things tremendously. I brewed extract for 20 years before going AG in the Spring of 2011. I was making consistently awesome brews in my opinion with extract. Only switched to AG to add more excitement to my brewing. :) My advice is for him to fix his "homebrew" taste problem (whatever that mean) before switching to AG.
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I agree. There are more variables involved in AG brewing that can really mess things up and are more difficult to diagnose and fix to improve.

As I mentioned much earlier, there are many accomplished brewers doing all extract and brewing award winning beer!

If you can't make great beer with good,fresh, extract kits or recipes you will be hard pressed to fix it by going AG.

IMO it is best to figure out exactly what is going on in your extract technique and fix it first. Freshness of ingredients, cleaning/sanitizing, fermentation temperatures, pitching rate, making starters, water quality and final packaging are all things that need to be broken down and looked at. Once all these aspects are improved upon the beer too will improve!
 
FirstStateBrewer said:
Another peeve I have with the original poster, when I look at this listing of "“Off” Flavors In Beer", I don't see that "homebrew" taste in there anywhere. To me, it would make sense to identify what that "homebrew" taste really is and then address that.

http://morebeer.com/public/pdf/off_flavor.pdf
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Sorry to peeve you, but if you've read through the thread, I am not the only person that has experienced the taste I am describing.

Perhaps I should have worded my initial question better, but all I was really asking was "is there an obvious taste difference when moving from extract HB to AG HB?"

The simple answer would have been "No"...or "It shouldnt"... But overall, a few things have been brought to light in this thread that I think will be helpful...so..<shrug>

Also, who is to say I am making a bad Extract beer at all? I simply stating that from time to time in certain beers, I notice a slight off taste that I wanted to identify....and thought maybe, just maybe, it was a taste associated with using extracts.
 
Mikey_Dawg said:
Sorry to peeve you, but if you've read through the thread, I am not the only person that has experienced the taste I am describing.

Perhaps I should have worded my initial question better, but all I was really asking was "is there an obvious taste difference when moving from extract HB to AG HB?"

The simple answer would have been "No"...or "It shouldnt"... But overall, a few things have been brought to light in this thread that I think will be helpful...so..<shrug>

Also, who is to say I am making a bad Extract beer at all? I simply stating that from time to time in certain beers, I notice a slight off taste that I wanted to identify....and thought maybe, just maybe, it was a taste associated with using extracts.
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Why don't you want to find out what this mystery flavor is and how to correct it?
 
Mikey_Dawg said:
:mug:

It is all good man. I definitely want to track down the cause of off-taste and this thread has given me a few things that I know I can watch more closely...notably... using a yeast starter, lower pitch temps, and lower fermentation temps.
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Those are good starts, though you don't need a starter with dry yeast.

I apologize if I missed it, but have you been able to isolate the flavor in a certain type of beer?

Like, are your porters fine but your pales aren't?

That could help isolate whether it's ingredients, process, or water.
 
SWMBO and I have been running into the same sort if vague "off" taste in our brews. We were thinking maybe it had to do with the priming sugar, but thanks to this thread and some more digging around over the last couple of days, we've zeroed in on our fermentation temps. Our past brews were fermented at room temps upwards of 75 degrees, which was totally okay according to the kits/recipes, but apparently not so good (and the kits used Nottingham, which Yooper specifically pointed out as terrible at those temps).

Our Mocktoberfest, which is two-and-a-half weeks in the primary, is in the basement at 68-70, so hopefully that'll have less of the "off" taste. I'm going to take a swig of it before we prime/bottle, so that should tell us whether the off flavors are introduced before or after it hits the bottle (and, if there aren't any off flavors, or they're less pronounced, then the temps are likely the culprit).

Either way, I'll be picking up a bin to make a swamp cooler this afternoon. Worst case, I'll have a $10 bin in which to store all my homebrewing stuff.
 
AZ_IPA said:
Those are good starts, though you don't need a starter with dry yeast.

I apologize if I missed it, but have you been able to isolate the flavor in a certain type of beer?

Like, are your porters fine but your pales aren't?

That could help isolate whether it's ingredients, process, or water.
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Well, it really seems like in the beginning most all my beers had this off-taste. 7 years later, I really only notice it here and there and the only beer I have right now (or had, I finished off last night) that I noticed it in is my Rye Pale Ale. But it seemed to be more noticeable the longer I had that beer and as some of the hop characteristic wore off.

Like others have said, It might not exist in my other beers or just be hidden by hop or fruit additions. I have a few other older beers bottled I could open to see if I notice it there. Although I doubt I would notice it in my Quad... but would be a good excuse to open one of those jewels.
 
When to pitch yeast is very yeast specific as well as the temperature to ferment it at.

You mentioned it grows as it sits in the keg. Do you have a brush to clean the dip tube in the keg? I have read stories where people get odd tastes in some of their beers. They were able to trace it to a particular keg and found a dirty dip tube. It's an important step to do in cleaning your keg. Only take a couple of minutes to remove the liquid out port and clean it with the brush that will cost around 6.00 or so.
 
My 2 cents: Clean your beer lines. You said you use Star-San on them but that only sanitizes. Run beer line cleaner through the lines. Disassemble and soak/clean the faucets and the disconnects. If you need to, you can change out the beer line relatively cheaply.

All of the other advice will help you brew better beer, too, of course.

L
 
A proper identification of the taste, is a very important step to correct it. Getting it judged can really point you in the direction of the cause, then correction better than most anything else that has been suggested... most of the answers are really basic steps to getting better beers, but really just stabs in the dark to the cause.



Yooper said:
Stop. You're getting to the point of harassment.

This is a forum for discussion, not for inquisitions. Either post to be helpful, or walk away. Thanks!
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your "homebrew taste" could be from your water, the common base ingredient, or your yeast if you always use the same strain. If you always use dry nottingham or us05, buy a liquid culture and give it a try and try a different brand of extract. But since the problem gets worse its probably an infection. If you are topping up with unboiled tap water, that could easily be the source of the contamination. Give full boil a try if you have the equipment (you will need it for all grain), or preboil your top up water the day before. You could try bottling a few pints and store them warm and see how much worse the problem gets. Maybe you have a serious infection somewhere in your line or kegs and the refridgeration is suppressing it to some extent. All grain is super fun and I can't believe you've been brewing 7 years and haven't been tempted to give it a go yet ...so do it if it interests you...but....it probably won't eliminate your problems but rather add a bunch of new ones.
 
FirstStateBrewer said:
I wouldn't make that assumption. In fact, I would suggest if he's making bad beer with extract, he will make REALLY bad beer with AG. The AG process complicates things tremendously. I brewed extract for 20 years before going AG in the Spring of 2011. I was making consistently awesome brews in my opinion with extract. Only switched to AG to add more excitement to my brewing. :) My advice is for him to fix his "homebrew" taste problem (whatever that mean) before switching to AG.
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I'm not saying or assuming that Mikey_Dawg is making good or bad beer. My point was, and is, that simply because one is an extract brewer those beers do not have to have a "homebrew" taste and that high quality extract beer can in fact not only be very good with no unusual flavors or defects that would immediately label them as homebrew. My advice was actually the same as yours. Without identifying the taste and its source simply switching from extract to AG would likely not solve the problem. On the other hand I would not make the assumption you did with the blanket statement that AG brewing "complicates things tremendously". I'd like to know your reasons for reaching that conclusion. IMO while the AG process does add the time, effort and the additional science of mashing to the equation the positive side benefits of a full boil combined with mechanical wort chilling eliminate some of the potential problems encountered from extract brewing; such as the color & flavors tied to a partial boil, the less-than-ideal chilling methods often used and the addition of untreated, unboiled top-off water to the concentrated wort. :mug:
 
gbx said:
your "homebrew taste" could be from your water, the common base ingredient, or your yeast if you always use the same strain. If you always use dry nottingham or us05, buy a liquid culture and give it a try and try a different brand of extract. But since the problem gets worse its probably an infection. If you are topping up with unboiled tap water, that could easily be the source of the contamination. Give full boil a try if you have the equipment (you will need it for all grain), or preboil your top up water the day before. You could try bottling a few pints and store them warm and see how much worse the problem gets. Maybe you have a serious infection somewhere in your line or kegs and the refridgeration is suppressing it to some extent. All grain is super fun and I can't believe you've been brewing 7 years and haven't been tempted to give it a go yet ...so do it if it interests you...but....it probably won't eliminate your problems but rather add a bunch of new ones.
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I've been tempted to go to AG, but my PM brews have continually improved since I first started so I havent felt the need until just recently.

I dont think the taste is related to kegging as I've noticed it before when I used to bottle and I've also noticed the taste in other homebrewer's beers that also use extract for their beers and only bottle.

Water could be the cause as we all live in Metro Atlanta and probably have similar water quality. Fermentation temps could be the cause as well b/c I think we all ferment at room temps in our homes without using a cooler/other cooling method. The funny thing is, I notice this taste in pretty much everyone of my friends homebrews (all styles) who has been brewing longer than me (he only bottles). I never perceived it as a bad taste but just thought it was something can came along with extract brewing.

I just need to try a few new things with my process and see if this random taste goes away. Thanks for all the advice.
 
This probably isn't your problem but just thinking back to what my wife describes as "homebrew taste" which i still get - yeast still in suspension. If I hand her a young beer or a gravity sample that I see the awesome potential in, she says "yuk, homebrew". If its not settling out fast enough in the keg, I fine with gelatin and it cures it in a day or 2.
 
gbx said:
This probably isn't your problem but just thinking back to what my wife describes as "homebrew taste" which i still get - yeast still in suspension. If I hand her a young beer or a gravity sample that I see the awesome potential in, she says "yuk, homebrew". If its not settling out fast enough in the keg, I fine with gelatin and it cures it in a day or 2.
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This could totally be it...who knows at this point. I was at the end of my keg when I noticed it a good bit with the Pale Ale, could be that I was tasting alot more yeast as the final few pints were served from the keg.

I have never tried gelatin... only "fining agent" I use is moss to clear my brews.
 
Off flavors can come from a number of things but it certainly won't be solved by going all-grain.

  1. Understand you are making ales, not lagers. So don't expect BMC.
  2. Demand fresh extract. Old extract will ruin a batch.
  3. Switch to 'mini-mashes' -- the few pounds of 'real' grain will help.
  4. Kill off the chlorine -- or chloramine. Both will result in off flavors.
  5. Control your fermentation temps! If you are in the upper 70's or higher, you need to regulate temps.
  6. Crash the yeast in suspension. Definitely cold crash. Irish moss/whirlfloc or gelatin is up to you.

While I've been brewing for only a year, I've produced great all-grain and mini-mash recipes. In fact, I still brew a few mini-mashes to this day since they are of such high quality. The above steps helped me get there.
 
My thoughts are:

1.) Water can be ruled out pretty quick. Make some batches with your water side by side with some bottled water. I'm not saying either is good or bad, but if you have something coming from the water that is that noticeable, you would spot it right away.

2.) Sanitation issues are possible, but those are always hit or miss. You wouldn't have a consistent sanitation issue unless it was really bad, and then I think everyone who tasted it would know it. Either way, I think that is really not very probable for someone with years of brewing experience.

3.) Temperature -- I think this is the problem. I see where you ferment in a room that is between 70F to 72F ambient. Let's call it 71F. This puts you actively fermenting at what, 75F? I think that is more than hot enough to put off a consistent astringent alcohol taste. Probably would taste more like a goofy twang aftertaste.

4.) Underpitching -- Could you be pitching liquid yeast without a starter or could you be pitching just one pack of dry yeast into 5 gallons of higher gravity beer? In this goes aeration, too. If you at least stir the heck or shake the heck out of your fermenter, I would say this is a non-issue. I don't think additional O2 buys you much if you are pitching enough onto a shaken fermenter.

I noticed my beer batch become noticeably better as I cooled the batches. I'm now trying to push the envelope to see how cold I could go. I have one now at 61F, and it ripped through active fermentation in just 48 hours with a good starter.
 
Here's a newbie's thoughts.

I started out doing two extract batches. They didn't turn out so well - but I was new. I wanted to brew better beer so I started hitting the books, podcasts, forums, etc to better my technique.

In doing so I switched to AG as I liked the low-cost/high investment style of brewing, and I knew I'd be in the hobby awhile.

7 batches down the road, my beer is tasting pretty good. However, I attribute more of that to all the knowledge I've gained over the process more so than switching to AG. I'm 100% confident I could go back to the same recipes I brewed at the outset of my start to the hobby and produce beer just as good as any AG batch I'm brewing. I brew AG because I like the complexity to it and options. Just got back to the homebrew shop with more bulk grain! Increased my specialty grains to about 14 on hand (found some awesome airtight containers at Ikea) as well as a new 50 lbs bag of 2-row.
 
Mikey_Dawg said:
This could totally be it...who knows at this point. I was at the end of my keg when I noticed it a good bit with the Pale Ale, could be that I was tasting alot more yeast as the final few pints were served from the keg.

I have never tried gelatin... only "fining agent" I use is moss to clear my brews.
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The more i think aobut it, "homebrew taste" is probably yeast...my wife and I were at a neighbours house last night and he gave us a beer he had made from a kit - all i could taste was acetadahyde with a bit of diacetyl but it was clear and yeast free so my wife didn't mind!

When you clean the keg at the end is there lots of yeast and crap sitting in the bottom?
 

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