Bruxellensis v Lambicus?

Astonishing how little discussion there is regarding the differences in the three common strains of brett. A guy started a thread a little while ago and it ended up going off in a different direction, so here it is again, especially regarding Brett B and Brett L. Some say one is horsey-er and some say the other is milder and vice versa. Odd, also, that the Wyeast website and the White Labs website contradict each other. I intend to do a blend with Brett C and either 'b' or 'l' but I can't decide which. Any thoughts?

I haven't used Brett B yet. I associate this with English Style Old Ale. I just haven't made one.

I have used Brett L from Wyeast for a Stong Oud Bruin (SOB) OG 1.081 - FG 1.006. This definitely has a pineapple, cherry pie aroma. There is some earthy barnyard there too but not overpowering. I did not pitch lacto or pedio.

I am sure someone will contradict me, but this was my experience.

You can get different flavors/aromas out of both depending on the temperature. The Brewing Network archives have some great info on both strains from Vinnie at RR. Check out the 1/17/10 show.

Here is what I wrote about their flavor characteristics for the book I'm slowly working on:

WY5112 Brettanomyces bruxellensis – Provides the classic Brett character made famous by Orval. Descriptors range through farmyard, wet hay, horse blanket etc…

WY5526 Brettanomyces lambicus – Big cherry pie character when young, but it fades as the beer ages. It seems to produce more tartness than the other Brett strains.

WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis –Similar to the WYeast Brett bruxellensis, but with even more aggressive farmyard funk aromatics.

WLP653 Brettanomyces lambicus – This strain has a much more aggressive and funky character than its WYeast equivalent, lacking the cherry pie character that is usually cited with this strain.

Oldsock said:

WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis –Similar to the WYeast Brett bruxellensis, but with even more aggressive farmyard funk aromatics.

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I've used WLP650 a lot recently (all from the same vial) and I get nothing but a lot of fruity flavors. No barnyard in there at all.

I also cultivated the dregs from Ommegang Biere De Mars (I think it's supposed to be Brett-B too), and that was over-the-top barnyard. The starter I made smelt and tasted like a pig-sty; really over-powering. Have not tasted any of the product yet.

Brett seems to produce differing flavor profiles dependent on many factors. I have a Orval spiked Saison that went a very different direction than the bottle I got the brett from. Also, I have noted adding brett in bottles for conditioning can have a dramatic affect over primary and secondary additions.

Here is a good read. Old Sock had some input on this power point, which is a great tool for the cliff note version of bretts.
http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/GregDoss_BrettBrewing.pdf

Hope that helps,

BW

Calder said:

I've used WLP650 a lot recently (all from the same vial) and I get nothing but a lot of fruity flavors. No barnyard in there at all.

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How long have you been aging the beer for? I got a lot of fruit using it as a 100% fermentation, but in both primary/secondary I got a good deal of funk/leather (although much more in primary with Sacch).

Oldsock said:

Here is what I wrote about their flavor characteristics for the book I'm slowly working on:

WY5112 Brettanomyces bruxellensis – Provides the classic Brett character made famous by Orval. Descriptors range through farmyard, wet hay, horse blanket etc…

WY5526 Brettanomyces lambicus – Big cherry pie character when young, but it fades as the beer ages. It seems to produce more tartness than the other Brett strains.

WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis –Similar to the WYeast Brett bruxellensis, but with even more aggressive farmyard funk aromatics.

WLP653 Brettanomyces lambicus – This strain has a much more aggressive and funky character than its WYeast equivalent, lacking the cherry pie character that is usually cited with this strain.

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Any info like this for claussenii

Anectdotally, I pitched brett C into an old ale that used S-04 for primary, and it's become extremely port-like. Lots of cherry and grape.

I've had good luck with White lab's Brett C, in big beers it gives a nice leather flavor, bit of cherry not too funky. In lighter beers it tends to be fruitier.

Haven't tried Wyeast's version.

Brett C is very mild... aromas of hay, mild barnyard, pleasant. Pineapple flavors, much like warm-fermented Cali ale, pretty clean overall. Most of the character is in the aroma. I really like this one for a light all-brett beer where B or L could be overpowering.

Oldsock said:

How long have you been aging the beer for? I got a lot of fruit using it as a 100% fermentation, but in both primary/secondary I got a good deal of funk/leather (although much more in primary with Sacch).

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I've gotten a lot of very pleasant fruit flavor using it as a primary strain in beer, cider and graff. I have some in secondary right now, and I was planning on taking a couple of samples this weekend. One is about 5 months Brett, the other two are 4 months.

Since I used it for several beers and as the primary yeast several times I had a starter going for a while, and tasted the starter wort a number of times. Each time it was fruity. Comparing this to the Barnyard smell and flavor from the starter made from the dregs of the Ommegang Biere De Mars, there was no comparison. I have difficulty believing they are the same yeast strain. I have two small batches using that yeast in secondary, that I'm also going to be tasting this weekend, also 4 months since adding.

does pitching a brett w a sacc make sense simultaneously? i picked up some brett c and was going to pitch it with an ale yeast in a berliner. is there any point to using the sacc at all?

not going to change how long i let it ferment, but i'm going for a fruity character more than leather so i figured the less sugar the brett gets to eat, the softer the results...?

Saccharomyces said:

Brett C is very mild... aromas of hay, mild barnyard, pleasant. Pineapple flavors, much like warm-fermented Cali ale, pretty clean overall. Most of the character is in the aroma. I really like this one for a light all-brett beer where B or L could be overpowering.

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Hmm, maybe a brett wheat beer would be a good experiment.

jtakacs said:

does pitching a brett w a sacc make sense simultaneously? i picked up some brett c and was going to pitch it with an ale yeast in a berliner. is there any point to using the sacc at all?

not going to change how long i let it ferment, but i'm going for a fruity character more than leather so i figured the less sugar the brett gets to eat, the softer the results...?

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If you want to use 100% Brett you'll need to build it up to a pitchable amount.

Brett is pretty unpredictable, pitching it as the only microbe will make for a cleaner character since it won't be stressed out. Pitching in primary with Sacch seems to give more character than pitching in secondary, but not always.

I brewed my first Brett beer using a Bells best brown ale recipe. I cut back the bitterness to 20 ibu's, and pitched US-05 and Brett B at the same time. Kept the beer upstairs so it was around 68 ambient temp.

It was in primary for 4 weeks, then transferred to secondary where it has been for about 2.5 months. There is a definite wild smell and taste to the beer. I'm thinking horsey/funk right off the bat with a little bit of tart fruitiness. It finishes with a hint of malt and bitterness on the back end.

Does anyone have experience with adding fruit to a brett beer? I have 2 cans of Oregon fruit red raspberry. I want to add them but I like the taste now and I don't want to destroy the beer. Any feedback would be appreciated

Check out Oldsock's website - http://www.themadfermentationist.com/ You can spend days reading about adding fruit to brett beers there.

Oldsock said:

If you want to use 100% Brett you'll need to build it up to a pitchable amount.

Brett is pretty unpredictable, pitching it as the only microbe will make for a cleaner character since it won't be stressed out. Pitching in primary with Sacch seems to give more character than pitching in secondary, but not always.

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almost sounds counterintuitive that brett alone would be cleaner... decided i'm gonna break up a 6 gallon brew in half and pitch half with sacc and brett c and half with brett c only. we'll see what the difference is i guess... i'll definitely step it up - good advice, thx...

jtakacs said:

almost sounds counterintuitive that brett alone would be cleaner...

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Brettanomyces produces the classic funky/cherry pie/horse blanket flavors and aromas when stressed, e.g. when its in a high alcohol, low pH, etc environment. If you pitch it by itself, it won't be as stressed, and it'll produce a cleaner product.

interesting. clearly i have to do both - hoping to brew a BW this weekend and split a large batch up into smaller fermenters and pitch different combos. we'll see...

Oldsock said:

Here is what I wrote about their flavor characteristics for the book I'm slowly working on:

WY5112 Brettanomyces bruxellensis – Provides the classic Brett character made famous by Orval. Descriptors range through farmyard, wet hay, horse blanket etc…

WY5526 Brettanomyces lambicus – Big cherry pie character when young, but it fades as the beer ages. It seems to produce more tartness than the other Brett strains.

WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis –Similar to the WYeast Brett bruxellensis, but with even more aggressive farmyard funk aromatics.

WLP653 Brettanomyces lambicus – This strain has a much more aggressive and funky character than its WYeast equivalent, lacking the cherry pie character that is usually cited with this strain.

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If you had to go for the least sour one which would it be? At present I'm considering WL's Lambicus as its the barnyard flavour I'm looking for.

Brew_Meister_General said:

If you had to go for the least sour one which would it be? At present I'm considering WL's Lambicus as its the barnyard flavour I'm looking for.

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None produce anything that would be considered "sour" by today's standards. They produce unusual, unique, and usually "funky" character in beer - but not sour. Sometimes the dryness of the beer they produce can come across as tart but certainly not sour.

Now, if you leave your beer exposed to high levels of oxygen then the brett will produce high levels of acetic acid (think vinegar), which IS sour but generally results in dumping the beer.

stpug said:

None produce anything that would be considered "sour" by today's standards. They produce unusual, unique, and usually "funky" character in beer - but not sour. Sometimes the dryness of the beer they produce can come across as tart but certainly not sour.

Now, if you leave your beer exposed to high levels of oxygen then the brett will produce high levels of acetic acid (think vinegar), which IS sour but generally results in dumping the beer.

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Duly noted! I'll add it to secondary and then turn it up to 29c, how long should keep it in there for a 7% beer?

Thanks!

Brew_Meister_General said:

Duly noted! I'll add it to secondary and then turn it up to 29c, how long should keep it in there for a 7% beer?

Thanks!

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29C (84F) is awfully warm, IMO. I think room temperature (65-75F) is more reasonable and gentle.

Secondary is a great time to add it.

If you plan on bottling then you'll need to keep it there until you no longer see the gravity dropping. You will need to take occasional gravity readings weeks apart to have a good idea if the gravity is still dropping since brett can/will move very slow as it's finishing up. I would plan on a couple months (2-3) but I would grab a gravity reading at month 1 and month 2, then a couple weeks later. It's a matter of getting enough reading to verify that the gravity is stable but no so much as to introduce too much oxygen.

If you will be kegging then you have more flexibility since you can purge the keg of excess co2 as it's generated. I would play it by taste in this instance.

stpug said:

If you plan on bottling then you'll need to keep it there until you no longer see the gravity dropping. You will need to take occasional gravity readings weeks apart to have a good idea if the gravity is still dropping since brett can/will move very slow as it's finishing up. I would plan on a couple months (2-3) but I would grab a gravity reading at month 1 and month 2, then a couple weeks later. It's a matter of getting enough reading to verify that the gravity is stable but no so much as to introduce too much oxygen.

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Wow, so what yeast would you suggest for primary? I was considering just harvesting WL's English Ale yeast from my current batch and using that as I imagine the Brett character would take over regardless, notably if I'm using the lambicus which is meant to have the most intense flavours.

I've used WLP001 in 2 of mine and WLP320 in 1. The last two are still going at it after 2 years. Only lightly tart, I ended up pitching some lactose and a Sour Mix to get some additional sour notes.

@CA_Mouse brings up a good point. Are you ( @Brew_Meister_General ) wanting a "sour" beer or is a "funky" beer what you're after?

As far as primary yeast strain is concerned, it's said that brett can transform yeast esters into other more unusual compounds/aromas/flavors; sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. An english ale yeast should provide plenty of esters for the brett to work with. I, personally, would not shy away from using an english ale strain for primary and brett for secondary.

stpug said:

@CA_Mouse brings up a good point. Are you ( @Brew_Meister_General ) wanting a "sour" beer or is a "funky" beer what you're after?

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It's those funky flavours I'm after so its just a question of what to pitch for primary, after just washing my yeast it seems to be 95% trub so maybe I'll just go with some dry yeast instead.

Oldsock said:

WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis –Similar to the WYeast Brett bruxellensis, but with even more aggressive farmyard funk aromatics.

WLP653 Brettanomyces lambicus – This strain has a much more aggressive and funky character than its WYeast equivalent, lacking the cherry pie character that is usually cited with this strain.

Click to expand...

How intense is the WL Brett Lambicus? Would you describe it as an acquired taste simply because of how rich it is? Does the brux generally have more fruity flavours?

drez77 said:

Hmm, maybe a brett wheat beer would be a good experiment.

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Did you ever do the brett wheat beer? I was considering doing it because more esters = more brett (brett consumes esters?), but then I thought I'd end up with a barnyard tasting wheat beer which would be like a clash of flavours or styles.

Steelers77 said:

I brewed my first Brett beer using a Bells best brown ale recipe. I cut back the bitterness to 20 ibu's, and pitched US-05 and Brett B at the same time. Kept the beer upstairs so it was around 68 ambient temp.

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Did you aerate it? As I heard this causes the brett to produce acetic acid which gives it a sour or vinegar flavour.

It's the long term exposure to oxygen (post-primary fermentation) that causes the acetic acid production. You can certainly ferment a beer completely with 100% brett yeast and proper aeration without any acetic production; and it will also keep the funky brett qualities very mellow too.

stpug said:

It's the long term exposure to oxygen (post-primary fermentation) that causes the acetic acid production. You can certainly ferment a beer completely with 100% brett yeast and proper aeration without any acetic production; and it will also keep the funky brett qualities very mellow too.

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Brett will produce acetic acid anytime oxygen in available, including during propogation. However, if it is the only the small amount dissolved in the wort at pitching, this amount should be below threshold.

I don't find that oxygen is correlated with the funkier aspects of Brett. Those phenols tend to be produced when the Brett works on ferulic acid, phenols from the brewer's yeast, and other phenols from the malt. This tends to be slow, so quickly consumed 100% Brett beers usually don't exhibit much funk.

Oldsock said:

I don't find that oxygen is correlated with the funkier aspects of Brett. Those phenols tend to be produced when the Brett works on ferulic acid, phenols from the brewer's yeast, and other phenols from the malt. This tends to be slow, so quickly consumed 100% Brett beers usually don't exhibit much funk.

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Oh really, I heard that the Brett produces the funk flavours by consuming esters, hence why I was planning to turning my heater up to 25c during my next fermentation, but if its phenols it consumes then I should let it sit at 20c.

Brew_Meister_General said:

Oh really, I heard that the Brett produces the funk flavours by consuming esters, hence why I was planning to turning my heater up to 25c during my next fermentation, but if its phenols it consumes then I should let it sit at 20c.

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Interesting experiment addressing the issue here: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Brettanomyces_secondary_fermentation_experiment

Turns out the primary strain isn't all that important, while Brett does convert 4VG to 4EG, this is a relatively small amount of the total 4EG produced.