Did I transfer to secondary too soon?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

johnboy1313

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
58
Reaction score
0
Location
Rockford, IL
Hi guys/gals, new guy here. I've been reading a lot lately about secondary fermentation, and transfering when the vigorous fermentation activity is complete. I brewed a maibock leaning towards Dead Guy last Saturday, and hit my target gravity exactly. I fermented for a week, and kept my eye on the process. The active fermentation had subsided, and I was getting a bubble every two minutes or so. I transfered into the secondary today, and took a hydrometer reading. My target final gravity was 1.020, and my actual reading was 1.035. A considerable difference. Will my wort continue to ferment in the secondary, or did I screw it up transferring it too soon? I plan on taking another hydrometer reading in a week, if it isn't dropping anymore, can I transfer back to my primary, and add another packet of yeast, or should I just add yeast to my secondary and attach my blow-off tube? Thanks in advance. John
 
You did transfer to soon. There's still yeast in the beer working, but not nearly as much as if you'd left it in primary. My guess is your resolution is probably correct, but maybe don't wait a full week. I'd be interested in what others say.
 
Yes you did transfer way too soon.....Why did you do it knowing you were so far off?

You may find your beer stuck anywhere between 1.030 and 1.020 in a couple weeks.

Just wait it out an see. It may rekrausen on the other hand.

Next time wait til you have hit your target gravity or a few points off if you decide to rack. Though if you read around here, you will find that many of us forgo a secondary unless we are adding oak or fruit, instead we opt for a long primary. I have been leaving my beers in primary for a month for the last 3 years and my beers have vastly improved in clarity and taste from letting the yeast clean up after fermentation.
 
I didn't take the reading until after I had racked it. I don't know why I didn't take the reading before, I guess I just got a bit overanxious.

Yeah, you kinda got it backwards. ;)

The only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometer. Like I said here in my blog, which I encourage you to read, Think evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

Thinking about "doing anything" without taking a hydrometer reading FIRST is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on. It's exactly the same thing with our beers. The hydrometer is what should be your lead in what to do.

:mug:
 
Just leave it alone for a couple weeks or more. It will take a while for the yeast to build back up enough to get fermenting again.
 
In the future you could also skip doing a secondary. All of the fermentation takes place in the primary. Racking to a secondary is completely optional. I personally think that it is a waste of time, equipment, cleaner and sanitizer and has potentials for screwing things up..
 
In the future you could also skip doing a secondary. All of the fermentation takes place in the primary. Racking to a secondary is completely optional. I personally think that it is a waste of time, equipment, cleaner and sanitizer and has potentials for screwing things up..

I more than likely will skip it next time. Don't you guys worry about off flavors from sitting on the yeast?
 
I more than likely will skip it next time. Don't you guys worry about off flavors from sitting on the yeast?

There's 10,000 discussions about that on here, over the last three years that many of us have been doing it, including 5-6 today alone. It's been answered, cited, argued, and even covered on basic brewing and byo....rather than re-invent the wheel, if you really are interested in the answer, just do some digging on here, you won't have to look to far to see what I and others have posted on the subject. About 5,000 posts on the subject are mine.
 
(the summary of those 5,000 posts, though, is, no, it is fine to sit on a yeast cake for a good long while. assuming you're storing it at fermenting temps or lower, before you run the risk of autolysis (yeast death) and off flavors.)
 
I just took another reading, it's dropped to 1.030 from 1.035 in seven days. I'm hoping for another drop this week. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. If it doesn't drop anymore, what are my options?
 
I took a hydrometer reading this morning. It is now down to 1.020, my target final gravity. I will wait until Tuesday to take another reading. Will I hurt it any leaving it in the secondary until next Saturday to bottle? Thanks for all the help, John

**Edit** Oh, by the way, it tastes AWESOME! Here's a link, if any of you are interested, to what I'm making. It's not a clone of Dead Guy, more like a cousin. I call it Six Feet Deep.

http://hopville.com/recipe/145499/maibock-helles-bock-recipes/six-feet-deep
 
I took a hydrometer reading this morning. It is now down to 1.020, my target final gravity. I will wait until Tuesday to take another reading. Will I hurt it any leaving it in the secondary until next Saturday to bottle? Thanks for all the help, John

No problem leaving it in secondary a little longer. It'll probably just make it BETTER! I've found bulk aging to be better than bottle aging. Seriously, it's like a week in the carboy is equal to two or three weeks in the bottle. Ages the green right out of it quicker.
 
I think the concept of racking early probably came from the days when it was popular to primary in plastic buckets. The first belgian ale I made was a triple with a relatively high gravity of 1.080. Beers like that just require more time to ferment out so I left it two months in a bucket. Well, the results were bad. I think it had started to spoil as it had a slight vomit flavor. But the moral is the story is that from today's knowledge of homebrewing, off flavors due to extended primary don't come from letting the beer sit too long on the yeast. They come from the container itself. With a well sanitized glass carboy, you can leave it in primary for months without any issues.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that since the days of the vomit beer, I have done several primaries which have lasted a month or more and the beer came out spectacular.
 
I have read many times that when you transfer too soon to secondary you leave too much yeast behind. Can someone explain this? I know there is lots of dead yeast and sediment on the bottom, and I assume there must be some live yeast down there, but how would the live yeast that had already settled to the bottom help ferment or clean up the wort? Isn't all of the fermentation/cleanup done by the yeast that stay in suspension, which then would be transferred to the secondary?
 
rwberne, the yeast on the bottom of the primary are NOT dead. If anything, they're just resting, waiting for more sugars to munch on. Unless you actually cold crash your primary, they won't even [really, from my understanding] go dormant. They need low temperatures to go dormant, such as in the fridge. After enough time (months) at low temperatures, you could see some yeast die off. But, in the amount of time most people leave their brews in primary, yeast won't die (unless you add things to kill them, a bad idea in my mind)...

I'm harvesting/washing my yeast (out of primary) after wort has sat on them for 3-4 weeks (so far, bigger brews will sit longer). I expect to have good yeast, or enough good yeast, for at least 6 months at fridge temps. I might freeze them in the future, which will require some additional steps/processes to ensure the yeast remains viable.

Letting the brew sit on the yeast cake will give it more time to clean up after itself. Sitting on the yeast for the extra time also lets the yeast cake compact more, so you'll lose less wort/beer when you do rack off of it... This has been gone over many, many, many times in other threads. The conventional wisdom is to primary for 2-4 weeks (for lighter brews, under ~1.060) and longer for big/bigger brews. If you intend to age over oak, or other strong flavor elements, you will want to plan to rack off of those at some point. Basically, rack off when the flavor hits your target range, so that you can stop the addition (another reason to NOT use extracts for flavors, like vanilla extract).

I have two big brews aging on oak chips right now (about 1-1/2 weeks so far)... One of those sat on a bourbon soaked vanilla bean for about 10 days. I pulled it off the bean, and put it on the oak chips. If I had used extract in the brew, I'd have zero control of how much flavor the vanilla gave the brew. NOT a good idea in my book.
 
Dunno if you noticed...this thread is 11 months old haha. But to answer your question, if you transfer too soon you would actually be bringing too much yeast into the secondary since less of it will have settled. The secondary isn't for the yeast to keep munching away, it's just a clearing and aging vessel. The fermentation should be essentially done before you transfer.

Isn't all of the fermentation/cleanup done by the yeast that stay in suspension, which then would be transferred to the secondary?

That same yeast is in suspension in the primary.
 
My 2 cents … racking into a secondary take your beer off the trub that will give you off favors and helps make your beer clear out. Don’t worry you’ll be fine. If you’re secondary still pushing bubbles that yeast that was still suspended will still be working only slower. I tend to rack off after a week if I get a strong ferment to get it off that nasty trub, and to taste my effort of course…\CHEERS!:mug:
 
I think the concept of racking early probably came from the days when it was popular to primary in plastic buckets. The first belgian ale I made was a triple with a relatively high gravity of 1.080. Beers like that just require more time to ferment out so I left it two months in a bucket. Well, the results were bad. I think it had started to spoil as it had a slight vomit flavor. But the moral is the story is that from today's knowledge of homebrewing, off flavors due to extended primary don't come from letting the beer sit too long on the yeast. They come from the container itself. With a well sanitized glass carboy, you can leave it in primary for months without any issues.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that since the days of the vomit beer, I have done several primaries which have lasted a month or more and the beer came out spectacular.

If you're using a food-grade plastic bucket of good quality, there's no real difference from glass in terms of flavor... it shouldn't be leeching.

Plastic flavors actually DO come from sitting on dead yeast. Just that it was a much bigger problem back in the day when yeast was generally of a vastly lower quality and autolysis was an actual concern.
 
Revy, as expected, is right. Key here is to tightly control fermentation temperature for the first 72 hours after pitching. Keep it at optimum temperature for the yeast during that time. If you pitch the right amount of yeast, you'll be just fine. Don't let temperature go lower than target temperature from the first week. I leave all beers in primary for a minimum of two weeks, typically 3. Take your time and you'll be fine. Modern yeast is robust and healthy. No rush to rack off.
 
My 2 cents … racking into a secondary take your beer off the trub that will give you off favors and helps make your beer clear out. Don’t worry you’ll be fine. If you’re secondary still pushing bubbles that yeast that was still suspended will still be working only slower. I tend to rack off after a week if I get a strong ferment to get it off that nasty trub, and to taste my effort of course…\CHEERS!:mug:

Do you have proof that leaving beer on the trub will give you off flavors? How long does it take?

I have left one on the trub for 3 weeks and one for 4 weeks without off flavors. In fact, the flavor is much better with being on the trub for 4 weeks than when I only left it for 1 week.
 
Do you have proof that leaving beer on the trub will give you off flavors? How long does it take?

I have left one on the trub for 3 weeks and one for 4 weeks without off flavors. In fact, the flavor is much better with being on the trub for 4 weeks than when I only left it for 1 week.

He doesn't, he's just repeated that old chestnut that we've all disproven, and even the person most responsible for perpetuating it has admitted HE was operating under one of those "common beliefs" that we all used to believe hands down.

John Palmer has changed his tune on that subject.

As YOU know, and most of us do, fermenting the beer is just a part of what the yeast do. If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leveing our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

We have multiple threads about this all over the place, like this one https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ignore-instructions-do-not-bottle-after-5-10-days-78298/

If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leveing our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

This is the latest recommendation, it is the same one many of us have been giving for several years on here.

John Palmer said:
Tom from Michigan asks:
I have a few questions about secondary fermentations. I've read both pros and cons for 2nd fermentations and it is driving me crazy what to do. One, are they necessary for lower Gravity beers?
Two, what is the dividing line between low gravity and high gravity beers? Is it 1.060 and higher?
Three, I have an American Brown Ale in the primary right now, a SG of 1.058, Should I secondary ferment this or not?
Your advice is appreciated, thanks for all you do!

Allen from New York asks:

John, please talk about why or why not you would NOT use a secondary fermenter (bright tank?) and why or why not a primary only fermentation is a good idea. In other words, give some clarification or reason why primary only is fine, versus the old theory of primary then secondary normal gravity ale fermentations.

Palmer answers:

These are good questions – When and why would you need to use a secondary fermenter? First some background – I used to recommend racking a beer to a secondary fermenter. My recommendation was based on the premise that (20 years ago) larger (higher gravity) beers took longer to ferment completely, and that getting the beer off the yeast reduced the risk of yeast autolysis (ie., meaty or rubbery off-flavors) and it allowed more time for flocculation and clarification, reducing the amount of yeast and trub carryover to the bottle. Twenty years ago, a homebrewed beer typically had better flavor, or perhaps less risk of off-flavors, if it was racked off the trub and clarified before bottling. Today that is not the case.

The risk inherent to any beer transfer, whether it is fermenter-to-fermenter or fermenter-to-bottles, is oxidation and staling. Any oxygen exposure after fermentation will lead to staling, and the more exposure, and the warmer the storage temperature, the faster the beer will go stale.

Racking to a secondary fermenter used to be recommended because staling was simply a fact of life – like death and taxes. But the risk of autolysis was real and worth avoiding – like cholera. In other words, you know you are going to die eventually, but death by cholera is worth avoiding.

But then modern medicine appeared, or in our case, better yeast and better yeast-handling information. Suddenly, death by autolysis is rare for a beer because of two factors: the freshness and health of the yeast being pitched has drastically improved, and proper pitching rates are better understood. The yeast no longer drop dead and burst like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life when fermentation is complete – they are able to hibernate and wait for the next fermentation to come around. The beer has time to clarify in the primary fermenter without generating off-flavors. With autolysis no longer a concern, staling becomes the main problem. The shelf life of a beer can be greatly enhanced by avoiding oxygen exposure and storing the beer cold (after it has had time to carbonate).

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

So, the new rule of thumb: don’t rack a beer to a secondary, ever, unless you are going to conduct a secondary fermentation.

THIS is where the latest discussion and all your questions answered.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

We basically proved that old theory wrong on here 5 years ago, and now the rest fo the brewing community is catching up. Though a lot of old dogs don't tend to follow the latest news, and perpetuate the old stuff.

The autolysis from prolong yeast contact has fallen by the wayside, in fact yeast contact is now seen as a good thing.

All my beers sit a minimum of 1 month in the primary. And I recently bottled a beer that sat in primary for 5.5 months with no ill effects.....

goiked, you'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.
 
This is exactly why I'm doing my little experiment (in another thread). I have a beer bottled up that sat for MONTHS on the yeast cake in a plastic bucket primary fermenter. I'm sending it to the HBT BJCP comp and NHC this year and will post the comments I get on my score sheets, word for word. I've been drinking a few bottles, checking how carbonation is coming along and I can already tell you there are no off flavors from the long primary.
 
I came across this thread because I did exactly what the original poster did and racked, then took a gravity on an imperial IPA and was sitting at 1.030 when I should be at 1.018. I freaked out and started searching. I still have hope for the beer, but after reading this post, I will not be doing a secondary again unless absolutely necessary. GREAT post.

One question though, most of my imperial IPAs require dry hopping for a couple weeks in a secondary. Would I still need to do a secondary? or would just opening the primary and shoving hops in after hitting my FG be good enough?

Thanks again, good thread.

He doesn't, he's just repeated that old chestnut that we've all disproven, and even the person most responsible for perpetuating it has admitted HE was operating under one of those "common beliefs" that we all used to believe hands down.

John Palmer has changed his tune on that subject.

As YOU know, and most of us do, fermenting the beer is just a part of what the yeast do. If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leveing our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

We have multiple threads about this all over the place, like this one https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ignore-instructions-do-not-bottle-after-5-10-days-78298/

If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leveing our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

This is the latest recommendation, it is the same one many of us have been giving for several years on here.



THIS is where the latest discussion and all your questions answered.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

We basically proved that old theory wrong on here 5 years ago, and now the rest fo the brewing community is catching up. Though a lot of old dogs don't tend to follow the latest news, and perpetuate the old stuff.

The autolysis from prolong yeast contact has fallen by the wayside, in fact yeast contact is now seen as a good thing.

All my beers sit a minimum of 1 month in the primary. And I recently bottled a beer that sat in primary for 5.5 months with no ill effects.....

goiked, you'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.
 
One question though, most of my imperial IPAs require dry hopping for a couple weeks in a secondary. Would I still need to do a secondary? or would just opening the primary and shoving hops in after hitting my FG be good enough?

I know some folks will do that, but I find it to be a huge pain the the butt. Dumping in the hops, especially pellet hops, can cause the beer to foam up and can make a mess as the hops are taking up more and more space in the fermenter. Being able to put your hops in the secondary and then rack on them makes it much easier and makes sure you don't just end up with the hops dropping in and floating on top. I don't want to try to stuff a hopsock into an already full fermenter, personally.
 
Except for Chesire, who even after all these years has problems with dry hopping in primary ;), in the years since this thread originally was started, it has now become pretty standard process. There are hundreds of threads about it, much more recent than this one.

You'll find a good discussion of it in THIS THREAD.
 
Except for Chesire, who even after all these years has problems with dry hopping in primary ;).

There's just some things that are too easy for me to stop doing. :D Besides, I do a short secondary with pretty much everything I brew anyway because I never learned to transfer out of the primary without sucking up some of the yeast cake at least once. :D
 
There's just some things that are too easy for me to stop doing. :D Besides, I do a short secondary with pretty much everything I brew anyway because I never learned to transfer out of the primary without sucking up some of the yeast cake at least once. :D

I always suck up a little of the yeast cake when I rack to the bottling bucket. By the time I have everything set to bottle, it's already settled again and I just leave it in the bottling bucket. I dump that last half bottle that I couldn't get to go out the spigot into a glass tumbler and set it in the refrigerator and an hour later it has all settled again. Since I'm always bottle conditioning I know I will always have a little yeast in the bottle so if any did get through the spigot, who's going to know?:mug:
 
Boy there is a lot of people on here that seem to be A holes on this subject.He is NEW at this so why be so assholish to the guy,everyone makes mistake
 
Boy there is a lot of people on here that seem to be A holes on this subject.He is NEW at this so why be so assholish to the guy,everyone makes mistake

Old thread, but that "secondary or no secondary" argument was rather contentious back then. Revvy's post above (#24) is a very good explanation of why the whole autolysis thing has been debunked, and most people are on board with that now. You can leave the beer on the cake for months, without any ill effects.

But yeah, they could've been more diplomatic. Most people here are pretty welcoming to new members.

A bit of friendly advice: When joining a forum, it's best to not come in, guns blazing. Especially when you necro a 5-year-old thread.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top