Quick Opinions on a Porter recipe?

First time asking for opinions...usually I just "wing it", but this one has so many complex malts I wanted opinions.

Type: Partial Mash
Date: 10/23/2009
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Brewer: Shortyjacobs
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00


Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
3 lbs 2.4 oz Dark Liquid Extract (17.5 SRM) Extract 28.25 %
3 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 26.91 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
1 lbs Smoked Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
8.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 4.48 %
8.0 oz Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain 4.48 %
1.50 oz US Goldings [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 22.4 IBU
1.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 20.2 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [6.50 %] (2 min) Hops 1.6 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle (DCL Yeast #S-05) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.06 %
Bitterness: 44.2 IBU
Est Color: 48.4 SRM


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 8.00 lb
Sparge Water: 5.46 gal Grain Temperature: 40.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 12.00 qt of water at 167.8 F -> 154.0 F


First time asking for opinions...usually I just "wing it", but this one has so many complex malts I wanted suggestions.

shortyjacobs said:

First time asking for opinions...usually I just "wing it", but this one has so many complex malts I wanted opinions.

Click to expand...

Okay! Let's have a look.

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
3 lbs 2.4 oz Dark Liquid Extract (17.5 SRM) Extract 28.25 %

Click to expand...

Here's the first issue I have. I recommend you switch to Light extract. Briess Gold is a good choice for this recipe.

It's useful to think of all recipes as "all grain" when you're formulating them. Extract is nothing more than the substitute for Pale or Pilsner malt in extract/steep or partial-mash recipes.

It helps to have knowledge of how extracts are made. They're nothing more than grain mashed and sparged. Then that sweet wort is concentrated. Pale extracts are mashed from pale malts only, or pale malt and a touch of another specialty grain for added body (Briess uses CaraPils in both the Gold and Pilsner extracts). Amber and Dark extracts are mashed with proportions of Crystal and black, roasted malts.

Thus, use of Amber and Dark extracts lessens the amount of control you have over the finished beer.

3 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 26.91 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
1 lbs Smoked Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
8.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 4.48 %
8.0 oz Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain 4.48 %

Click to expand...

Porter grists should be pretty simple. Pale, Crystal, Chocolate, and Black Patent; that's all you really need. My best porter has the proportions of 70%, 10%, 10% and 5%, respectively.

I'd cut the CaraPils. You don't want much more than 10% Crystal malt in Porter, and CaraPils is a Crystal malt.

You've also got a surfiet of Black Patent. Much more than 4 oz., even when used with such a large allotment of Chocolate malt, runs a very real risk of overpowering the beer with harsh, burnt, phenolic flavors.

Carafa II is really just for color. With Chocolate and Black Patent, you've got quite enough color. Porter, even Robust Porter, should be slightly translucent with a deep red color. This is best seen in a Pilsner glass; in a pint glass, it will be black with the merest hints of color. Therefore, I wouldn't bother with the Carafa.

Smoked malt I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot mashing fork. Like I said, I like good old-fashioned Porter. But I can tell you that a full pound is tremendous overkill. I'd not use more than 4-6 oz. in 6 gallons.

Of course, deleting all those specialty malts will have a tendency to bring your OG down. I'd add the remainder back with pale DME to bring it back to your desired OG.

1.50 oz US Goldings [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 22.4 IBU
1.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 20.2 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [6.50 %] (2 min) Hops 1.6 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle (DCL Yeast #S-05) Yeast-Ale

Click to expand...

I have no problems with any of this. Great yeast, and the hops profile sounds nummy.

Regards,

Bob

Just a few comments:

1) I agree with Bob above -- switch the Dark extract to light. You've got plenty of color & flavor coming from your other malts -- you don't need it.

2) You've got too much dark roast malts in there (2 lbs if you include the Carafa). Personally, I'd go with a max of about 1 lb for a robust porter -- make it whatever combo of chocolate & black patent you want -- could be 1/2 & 1/2, could be 3/4 choc & 1/4 bp. Like Bob said -- drop the Carafa, it only adds color & you don't need that.

3) The one place I'll disagree with Bob is the Smoked malt & that I'll do with a caveat. If by Smoked malt, you mean peat-smoked malt, Bob is right, 1 lb of that will ruin a beer very quickly. If you mean 1 lb of rauch malt, I think that would be super in there. Alaskan Smoked Porter & Stone Smoked Porter are both tremendous beers. Jamil also has a smoke porter recipe that adds 3 lbs of rauchmalt. 1lb would lend a nice hint of this that would complement some of the other flavors, I think.

4) Inclusion of Cara-pils? I think it would be fine in there; it would be also fine to drop it. You're mashing at 154 which should leave some long-chain dextrines, so this may make it unnecessary.

I do think this will be a nice batch of beer. Good luck.

Thanks for the comments folks!

OK, I see the point with the LME, Pilsen it is.

The Carafa was just an impulse click.....I just keep seeing it used, and it's dark, so I figured I'd see what it did. Now that you folks told me what it does, no problems, it's gone.

I'm gonna keep the CaraPils...isn't it just like 2-row, but with better head retention?? I thought Crystal malts were darker...

I also will stay with 1 lb chocolate and .5 lb black malt...I know it's not recommended, but I like big bold beers.....if I don't try, I'll never learn, right?

As for the smoked, honestly I've never had any smoked beer before, but I was thinking it might taste good. I'm going with the campfire vibe here, the chocolate and BP to give kind of coffee/chocolate flavors, like drinking irish coffee while eating smores around a campfire, and campfires produce smoke. Northern Brewer has "Weyermann Smoked Malt", which I THINK is this rauch malt, right? Thanks for the description of differences...peat-y flavors I don't want, smoke-y flavors I do want...

I made up for missing SG points with more 2-row, as LME only comes in 3.15 and 6 lb jugs from NB. Let me know what you think! I'll be picking up the ingredients on the way home tonight and brewing tomorrow or sunday! :rockin:

Amount Item Type % or IBU
3 lbs 2.4 oz Pilsner Liquid Extract (3.5 SRM) Extract 28.25 %
3 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 31.39 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
1 lbs Smoked Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
8.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 4.48 %

shortyjacobs said:

I'm gonna keep the CaraPils...isn't it just like 2-row, but with better head retention?? I thought Crystal malts were darker...

Click to expand...

Carapils is a crystal malt, just a light colored one, and with 16% crystal malts in your grist, that thing's going to be way too sweet, I say mash at 156 and drop the carapils, or at least cut it back by half.

Freezeblade said:

Carapils is a crystal malt, just a light colored one, and with 16% crystal malts in your grist, that thing's going to be way too sweet, I say mash at 156 and drop the carapils, or at least cut it back by half.

Click to expand...

Ah, so "crystal" means more than "barley that's roasted to be a certain lovibond color"?

Sounds good.....With 3 to 1 against, I think I'll go with the advice of the masses and sub more 2-row for the Carapils...

Edit:
Haha, look at that, now I'm pretty much back to Bob's "70/10/10/5" ratio of 2-row, Crystal, Chocolate, and BP, with a bit of smoked for good measure.

Amount Item Type % or IBU
3 lbs 2.4 oz Pilsner Liquid Extract (3.5 SRM) Extract 28.25 %
4 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 40.36 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
1 lbs Smoked Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.97 %
8.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 4.48 %

shortyjacobs said:

I'm gonna keep the CaraPils...isn't it just like 2-row, but with better head retention?? I thought Crystal malts were darker...

Click to expand...

Nope. Think about the name for a second: "CaraPils/Dextrine Malt". It enhances foam, but also enhances body and mouthfeel. Briess does not recommend using more than 5% in the grist. And if you choose a Briess extract for the base, there's already some in there and you don't know how much! I think they use about 5% in the Gold and Pilsner extracts, but I don't know for certain; they don't list their proprietary recipes.

So if you stick with what you've got, you'll have almost three times the CaraPils the manufacturer recommends. Then add in the dextrins from your relatively high mash temperature. Suddenly you're faced with a thick, chewy beer. I really don't like that in a Porter. But hey, it's your beer!

Dark roasted malts ehance foam retention, as does Crystal malt, and Crystal malt enhances body and mouthfeel as well as flavor and color.

Okay, most Crystal malts are darker, starting at 10L and running up to 120L+. But CaraPils goes through much the same process and has the same overall effect on the beer as Crystal. CaraPils doesn't impart flavor or color, that's all.

The extract brewer only needs CaraPils in pale beers. The mashing brewer doesn't need it at all.

I also will stay with 1 lb chocolate and .5 lb black malt...I know it's not recommended, but I like big bold beers.....if I don't try, I'll never learn, right?

Click to expand...

Truth! And it certainly isn't going to harm anything.

As for the smoked, honestly I've never had any smoked beer before, but I was thinking it might taste good. I'm going with the campfire vibe here, the chocolate and BP to give kind of coffee/chocolate flavors, like drinking irish coffee while eating smores around a campfire, and campfires produce smoke. Northern Brewer has "Weyermann Smoked Malt", which I THINK is this rauch malt, right? Thanks for the description of differences...peat-y flavors I don't want, smoke-y flavors I do want...

Click to expand...

There you go! Like I said, my tastes differ - though I know the Alaskan and Stone beers are excellent, I just can't get 'em past my nose.

Edit:
Haha, look at that, now I'm pretty much back to Bob's "70/10/10/5" ratio of 2-row, Crystal, Chocolate, and BP, with a bit of smoked for good measure.

Click to expand...

Come to the dark side. We've got ... er ... dark stuff.

Cheers,

Bob

NQ3X said:

Nope. Think about the name for a second: "CaraPils/Dextrine Malt". It enhances foam, but also enhances body and mouthfeel. Briess does not recommend using more than 5% in the grist. And if you choose a Briess extract for the base, there's already some in there and you don't know how much! I think they use about 5% in the Gold and Pilsner extracts, but I don't know for certain; they don't list their proprietary recipes.

So if you stick with what you've got, you'll have almost three times the CaraPils the manufacturer recommends. Then add in the dextrins from your relatively high mash temperature. Suddenly you're faced with a thick, chewy beer. I really don't like that in a Porter. But hey, it's your beer!

Dark roasted malts ehance foam retention, as does Crystal malt, and Crystal malt enhances body and mouthfeel as well as flavor and color.

Okay, most Crystal malts are darker, starting at 10L and running up to 120L+. But CaraPils goes through much the same process and has the same overall effect on the beer as Crystal. CaraPils doesn't impart flavor or color, that's all.

The extract brewer only needs CaraPils in pale beers. The mashing brewer doesn't need it at all.


Cheers,

Bob

Click to expand...

Fantastic. Great information, thanks Bob! I'm learning so much in this one thread....I've just made up recipes in the past without input, but I've yet to taste any! (all 5 of my "from scratch" creations are sitting in fermenters right now...lol....hopefully they turn out OK too!)....I'm glad I asked for input with this one as I'm certainly learning a lot. I also just read through this Wikipedia page which was extremely informative and gave me some background to understand what's being said here.

Thanks again, I can't wait to brew this.