Efficiency Crash - Pilsener Malt

Any thoughts on why my extract efficiency, which typically runs 80-84% crashes to 65% when using Pilsener malt? I do a rest at 128 for 30 minutes, then 148-154 for 60. I even add some 6 row for added diastatic. pH and calcium are carefully controlled, but to no avail.

Any ideas?

NanoMan

check your crush some malts have different grain size and you may need to adjust your mill for different malts.

I recently changed my gap to .028 inches, have to recirculate more but its a better crush.

NanoMan said:

I even add some 6 row for added diastatic.

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Why would you do that? Pilsner malt has plenty of diastatic enzyme content. Follow Nablis' advice and check the milling of the grain first. Beyond that I would check measurements, readings and math.

I do that because this efficiency crash is more replicable than my beers! Seriously, I'm doing nearly 50 bbls per year (that's 1550 gallons), so I have a fair amount of ale vs lager data. Trust me, this difference in efficiency is very consistent. I will try a test batch with the the mill ratcheted down a bit.

Cheers!

How long are you mashing for?

How long do you mash for when using Pilsner malt?

30 minute rest at 128, sacch rest at 148-154 (depending on the style) for another 60 minutes.

Sorry for the double post. Phone is freaking out.


Try mashing for longer. I just heard an interview, I forget with who, that said that when using higher quantities of Pilsner malt, you should really be increasing the amount of time you mash. It was recommended anywhere from the 75 to 90 minute range.

What is your pH at?

Interesting. The Helles came in at ph 5.34, theoretical Ca++ at 136 ppm

Try and throw an acid rest in there. Pilsner malt will raise the pH of the mash so perhaps that slight increase of the pH is hindering some enzymatic activity.

PJoyce85 said:

Try and throw an acid rest in there. Pilsner malt will raise the pH of the mash so perhaps that slight increase of the pH is hindering some enzymatic activity.

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It's not su much that pils malt raises the pH as that it doesn't lower it as much as darker malts do.

Denny said:

It's not su much that pils malt raises the pH as that it doesn't lower it as much as darker malts do.

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You are right. Sorry for the wording.

Either way, try an acid rest and see what happens. You are already doing a protein rest so mashing in a little lower for the acid rest shouldn't be too big an issue.

PJoyce85 said:

You are right. Sorry for the wording.

Either way, try an acid rest and see what happens. You are already doing a protein rest so mashing in a little lower for the acid rest shouldn't be too big an issue.

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I believe he said the pH was checked and was good, so I'm not sure what an acid rest would do for him.

Probably a dumb question, but is your pils malt undermodified by chance? It's unlikely, but if you somehow got your hands on less modified pils, that could be a factor.

Otherwise, definitely check the crush, make sure it looks good. Maybe crush some of your regular 2-row without changing the mill gap, then crush the pils and see if there's any observable difference in quality.

Also, are you checking your pH with the ColorpHast strips? These threads suggest the strips might read low:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/big-colorphast-experiment-126033/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/colorphast-ph-strip-information-363559/

If your pH is what you think it is, then I don't think an acid rest is needed.

I'll give it all a try....Cheers!

I'm using Weyerman's pils which I unbderstand to be a well modified pilsener...

The crush and possibly a longer mash seem good places to start. i think the pH and calcium are in the right range.

PS This forum is pretty cool....

I'm also a huge traditionalist so I still do decoctions and traditional mash steps even though they are not necessarily needed anymore. Hence my recommendation for an acid rest. BUT if all else fails, I say give it a shot. One more thing to rule out.

I live in Germany so if I made a Pils or a Bock without decocting, I'm pretty sure I'd be slapped Gotta love 8 hour brew days

NanoMan said:

I'm using Weyerman's pils which I unbderstand to be a well modified pilsener...

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Yeah, Weyermann's standard pils is well modified. They also produce some less modified Boheman pils malts, but I don't think they're so undermodified as to explain the drop in extract efficiency you're observing.

NanoMan said:

The crush and possibly a longer mash seem good places to start. i think the pH and calcium are in the right range.

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Cool, definitely keep us updated on what you learn!

PJoyce85 said:

I'm also a huge traditionalist so I still do decoctions and traditional mash steps even though they are not necessarily needed anymore. Hence my recommendation for an acid rest. BUT if all else fails, I say give it a shot. One more thing to rule out.

I live in Germany so if I made a Pils or a Bock without decocting, I'm pretty sure I'd be slapped Gotta love 8 hour brew days

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I'm the same way. I decoct all of my German beers with a simplified Hochkurz mash. Not sure if it actually provides a benefit over single infusion, but I enjoy the process, so I do it.

I use a digital pH meter, calibrated in buffer solution each time. I have a fair degree of confiudence in how reliable it is.

Have not had a chance to brew yet, but will report data when I do.

Cheers!

Good news and bad news. I always like bad news first: I changed multiple variables, meaning I 1) tightened the mill, 2) Allowed for a much longer sacch rest, and 3) Made more changes to the water chemistry. The good news: Mash efficiency went to 81%! Now, the mash was not only longer, it was extended, as in overnight (life gets in the way). So, now the next step wil be to replicate this.

Thanks for all of the input.

Cheers!

NanoMan

Glad to hear it. Hopefully it works out with a little bit of a shorter mash now