Operation Clone Lagunita's Undercover Investigation Shutdown Ale

Hi everyone. I love Lagunitas and I am very excited to see that they worked with the crew @ Can You Brew It to give cloned recipes of their IPA, Maximus IPA, Censored Ale, Brown Shugga, and Little Sumpin' Sumpin'. It is interesting to see what all of them have in common and what hops are used a lot. It is a life goal of mine to clone the beautiful beast that is the undercover investigation shutdown ale. With 9 batches under my belt, I'm ready to give it a go.

• Brown Shugga
• Little Sumpin' Sumpin'
• Maximus IPA
• IPA
• Censored Ale

I want to clone their Undercover Investigation Shutdown Ale. It's probably my all time favorite beer of theirs and I'm surprised to see that it doesn't show up on any clone forums. I believe that the key to UCIVSA is hidden in a combination of the ingredients from their other beers. I think that by piecing together a recipe from their other beers we can get a good attempt at a starting position for a clone.

I've been putting some thought into this Undercover Investigation Shutdown Ale recipe and I think that I've done it some justice. Now it's just a matter of trying it out. Is anyone else up for it? I've got a weird setup (all grain or partial mash one-gallon no temperature control) so it'd be nice if someone else tried it out on a bigger setup with temperature control abilities.

Here's what I've gathered so far...

• They use wheat in all their beers. That describes why their mouthfeel is so heavy (awesome) and may help mask their higher ABV beers. Wheat Malt is present in all of their clones. Little Sumpin' Sumpin' actually uses all wheat in addition to 2-row which I find interesting, but I don't see that in any other beers so I'll call that a unique property to sumpin' sumpin'.
• They love huge hop combinations as well as heavy dry hopping and heavy late addition. They're known for their hop additions, and interestingly enough their IPA has a surprisinly low IBU of 45. So keep an eye on which hops they use a lot of: Centennial, Summit, Cascade, Wilamette, Nugget/Horizon, Liberty. I think all of those should be present, probably along with Simcoe and perhaps Amarillo.
• They kick ass at making high gravity beers. Start with a known awesome high gravity beer (Brown Shugga) and see what should be modified
• Their beers are known for having a crisp sweet kick on the swallow. That's what I have come to identify as their house flavor. I thought it was yeast (even when I toured the brewery it was alluded to that their yeast had something to do with it) but on CYBI it is claimed that they use off-the-shelf yeast like WPL002. So I'm saying now that it may be the high mash temperature in some of them. Their IPA is mashed at like 160!
• Other favorites: Crystal 60 and Munich are present in most of the beers along with wheat malt. In fact if you look at Brown Shugga, Censored, their IPA, and Maximums they all have almost the same core ingredients: 2-row, Wheat, Munich, and Crystal 60. I think I'm on to something! Also the Maximus IPA has about the same IBU as UCISDA. Hell yeah.

And here's what I know about UCIVSDU. I have 2 left in my fridge, haven't cracked them open yet for this experiment:

• Gravity of around 1.092 for an ABV of around 9.75%. Basically, very similar to Brown Shugga!
• Estimated IBU of around 74IBU, (about double of the Censored ale, similar to Maximus IPA by some accounts)
• Likely to contain 2-row, wheat malt, munich, and crystal 60L based on other recipes
• SRM of 10-15 depending on source, same as Brown Shugga and Censored Ale
• Tasting notes of fruit and pine (hops), burnt caramel, molasses, dark fruit, "barleywine"-like. (also like Brown Shugga)
• Much more hop-heavy than Brown Shugga, but known for being well balanced and not hop-offensive. I'm thinking the 75IBU basicaly counters the alcohol (aka not a bitterness bomb) but the heavy late addition and dry hopping adds to the floral bouquette of the hop profile.

The Recipe
So here's what I'm thinking:

• Take the grain bill of Brown Shugga. Remove the Brown Sugar, replace with another grain already in the bill to make up for the loss in gravity points. Perhaps Munich and/or Wheat malt?
• Borrow the dry-hop timings and guidance of Little Sumpin' Sumpin because it's very intense
• Borrow the hop bill from a combination of maximus IPA and Little Sumpin' Sumpin' while keeping an eye on the others (particularly brown shugga). Create a hybrid that is well bittered up to 75IBU, but has much of the aroma and taste hops that make their maximus so favored, but also some of the sweeter hops that likely make brown shugga known, when fresh, as a "hopped up imperial red ale".
• I'd mash it warm, probably around 156 or 158F although I would need guidance here... considering that some call it a DIPA, it'd make sense to mimic the maximus mashing profile.

So, what does this all mean? I'm going to keep it simple, for now. This is what I did:

1. Brown Shugga Malt profile. Removed Brown Sugar. Efficiency = 70%. Target higher efficiency or add more 2-row to get up to target OG of 1.095
2. Maximus IPA Hops profile. Shaved off 90 minute hops and 45min Willamette (slightly) to bring IBU down to 80 from 110. Didn't touch late addition hops.
3. Little Sumpin' Sumpin Dry Hop profile. This is actually the Maximus IPA dry hop profile with Amarillo, Chinook, and Columbus added.
4. Standard WPL002 yeast
5. Little Sumpin' Sumpin' Fermentation Schedule (similar to maximus): pitch at 62F, up to 65F after 36 hours, up to 70F after another 70F
6. Mash is in the air. Brown Shugga: 155F, Little Sumpin: 150F, IPA: 160F, Maximus: 157F. Not sure which one to choose, but I'm leaning towards the Maximus 158F mash.

Here's the final recipe as it stands. Hopville . "Undercover Investigation Attempt" American Barleywine Recipe

I like this recipe because it is true to Lagunita's style, uses their hops schedule and dry-hop profile, utilizes wheat and all their strange hops, hits a target IBU and Gravity, uses the malt profile of Brown Shugga without brown sugar which matches with the tasting notes of Undercover Investigation Shutdown Ale as well as identifying with the monicker of being a "Barley-Wine", and uses the hop profile of Maximus IPA which is known as an "almost non-DIPA" and "much more balanced, fruity, and piney rather than in your face hop attack" which is exactly what I want out of the Undercover Investigation Shutdown Ale. Also the UCISDA is known as being a DIPA in some circles.


Update: Added corn sugar in place of brown sugar based on recommendation. Thanks!

7.27G pre-boil volume
5.5G post-boil volume

Target OG: 1.099 @ 70% Efficiency (I'll try for 1.100 - 1.105 since I get lower attenuation)
Target FG: 1.025 @ 75% Attenuation (Apparently this is very hard to do)
Target ABV: 9.9% ABV

IBU: ~80IBU
SRM: ~15

Malt Bill
--------
% LB OZ MALT OR FERMENTABLE
69% 16 0 American Two-row Pale
17% 3 13 Wheat Malt
5% 1 2 Crisp Crystal Malt 60L
4% 1 0 Munich Malt - 10L
3% 0 9.736 Corn Sugar (Dextrose)
1% 0 4.797 Crystal 100L
1% 0 3.668 Crystal 150L
23 1⅕

Hops (Grams)
------------
USE TIME GRAMS VARIETY FORM AA
boil 90 mins 3 Horizon pellet 12.0
boil 90 mins 10 Willamette pellet 5.5
boil 45 mins 18 Cascade pellet 5.5
boil 45 mins 18 Centennial pellet 10.0
boil 45 mins 18 Liberty pellet 4.0
boil 45 mins 30 Willamette pellet 5.5
boil 20 mins 39 Cascade pellet 5.5
dry hop 7 days 18 Amarillo pellet 7.0
dry hop 7 days 25 Cascade pellet 5.5
dry hop 7 days 25 Centennial pellet 10.0
dry hop 7 days 25 Chinook pellet 13.0
dry hop 7 days 15 Columbus pellet 15.4
dry hop 7 days 25 Simcoe pellet 13.0

Choose a mash profile:
Little Sumpin' Sumpin': 150F
Brown Shugga: 155F
Maximus IPA: 157F
IPA: 160F (yes, that's not a typo)
Mash-out 168F, Sparge 170F

Yeast: WPL002 (Maybe Safale US-04?)

Fermentation Temperatures:
Pitch @ 62F; 65F after 36 hours; 70F after 36 hours

Open Questions:

1. What to mash at?
2. If we assume lower attenuation than 75% (~68% likely), what grain to add to increase gravity so ABV comes out close to 10%? We did remove brown sugar but didn't replace it with anything. Add 2-row, wheat, munich, or one of the crystals?
3. Would you modify the hop bill at all? What about malt bill?
4. Does anyone have a more detailed hops or malt tasting description? The two bottles I have left are now aged which means the hops field has likely collapsed back down into the beer. Hell, maybe it's turning into a cousin of Brown Shugga, haha.

I would love to hear your thoughts and if you plan on brewing this. I only do one gallons at the time with partial mash, so I'll post converted recipes if anyone is interested.

This recipe makes me feel like this: :rockin::rockin::rockin::rockin::rockin:

(I'm out of space. For Extract/Partial Mash and Extract + Steep, check a few comments down)

booherbg said:

This recipe makes me feel like this: :rockin::rockin::rockin::rockin::rockin:

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Your enthusiasm is getting me excited! Please post back with any updates if you decide to brew this

Keep us posted!!!

You could sub white sugar for brown sugar to get the % and help with attenuation

dawgmatic said:

Your enthusiasm is getting me excited! Please post back with any updates if you decide to brew this

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bwomp313 said:

Keep us posted!!!

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Will do! It won't be for a few weeks but thank you for the encouragement! Now that it is getting cooler, I should be able to ferment in the mid 60s which would be nice. I live next to Listermann's so getting the materials in small enough quantities for 1 gallon all grain batches isn't a problem

skeezerpleezer said:

You could sub white sugar for brown sugar to get the % and help with attenuation

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Great idea! Definitely something to think about considering that the Brown Sugar is only about 1% of the grain bill. Thanks for the tip!

Here's a link to the partial mash + extract equivalent. Assumes that wheat is self-converting. Munich should mostly convert itself, but just in case enough 2-row is used to convert all crystal and munich. With the left-over enzyme action from the wheat it should be fine. To reduce cost, simply increase 2-row and decrease extract according to your set up. Also you could substitute wheat malt but I like mashing wheat plus it isn't clear always how much of a wheat extract is full wheat vs partially 2-row pale.

Hopville . "Undercover Investigation Attempt (Partial Mash)" American Barleywine Recipe

An attempt at an extract + steep. All wheat and pale is extract. The crystal should still contribute to gravity since it is partially converted already, although I'm not sure how much it contributes. Munich does not contribute to anything but taste and color since it will not be mashed, so I gave it 0 gravity points. This will likely be darker than intended since pale extract is much darker.

Either way, this should work! Replaced 2-row with equivalent gravity extract. Replaced wheat with equivalent gravity extract. Assumes that wheat extract is 100% wheat. Adjust accordingly to what you can find. For example, if you can only find 60% wheat / 40% pale extract, calculate how much wheat extract you need to cover all the wheat needs, then subtract 40% of that amount from the pale extra bill since it will be covered by the pale in the wheat extract. Dig it?

Hopville . "Undercover Investigation Attempt (Extract + Steep)" American Barleywine Recipe

I also love Lagunitas. If I was to pick my favorite brewery, it would definitely be them. I actually have never had their UCIVSA, as you call it, but have tried most of the others (at least the ones we can get in VA).

I don't really have much to add, other than sharing your enthusiasm. Maybe a few things to mention:

1) Lagunitas does use hop extract in some of their beers - don't be afraid to use it in place of some of the dry hopping if you think it will help

2) They use the 1968 yeast in the IPA - I've found that this makes my IPA clone truer to form than WLP 002 or US 05. Take that with a grain of salt, since I've never tasted what you are trying to clone.

3) Consider agitating the carboy with CO2 during dry hopping. They say they do this, and although they mention that the homebrewer can get the same effect by simply agitating the carboy, maybe the CO2 method makes a difference?

I am brewing their IPA clone again on Saturday - can't wait!

Oh wait, I was reading WLP001 - the WLP002 is pretty darn close to the 1968, so nevermind!

cwheel said:

I also love Lagunitas. If I was to pick my favorite brewery, it would definitely be them. I actually have never had their UCIVSA, as you call it, but have tried most of the others (at least the ones we can get in VA).

I don't really have much to add, other than sharing your enthusiasm. Maybe a few things to mention:

1) Lagunitas does use hop extract in some of their beers - don't be afraid to use it in place of some of the dry hopping if you think it will help

2) They use the 1968 yeast in the IPA - I've found that this makes my IPA clone truer to form than WLP 002 or US 05. Take that with a grain of salt, since I've never tasted what you are trying to clone.

3) Consider agitating the carboy with CO2 during dry hopping. They say they do this, and although they mention that the homebrewer can get the same effect by simply agitating the carboy, maybe the CO2 method makes a difference?

I am brewing their IPA clone again on Saturday - can't wait!

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Great advice. As far as yeast, I haven't ventured into liquid yeast yet since I'm so small scale as of now (dry yeast just makes more sense for me). But you're probably right that it would make it a bit more true to style.

I don't have any hops extract but that's also good advice, i remember hearing that on their interview. The numbers I've given out are the ones that Tasty used after he took all variables into consideration so I'm trusting that they're basically equivalent as far as bitterness units are concerned. Is extract expensive?

Good call, I hadn't heard of the C02 agitation. How often would you say to agitate? And how much agitation? I imagine you wouldn't want to froth it because that would be like introducing oxidation which is what you don't want to do at bottling time. Right?

Thanks for sharing the enthusiasm! You should definitely try to get a hold of some undercover investigation shutdown ale! it's kind of like a mix of a barleywine, imperial red ale, and imperial ipa. it really hits all of the marks for me. their hairy eyeball is pretty good but actually gives me a heavy hangover and bends a bit too far into the 'prunes / figs' territory for me. brown shugga isn't being made this year, although i hear their Lagunitas Sucks ale is truly tasty.

For the CO2 agitation, I think they said they just bubble CO2 once or two during the dry hopping period (if they dry hop 5-6 days, they might bubble at day 2 and 4). I got the feeling they just do it for a minute or so. Easiest thing for us seems to be to get an air stone, tubing, and attach to a CO2 tank (obviously only works if you keg). The carboy / bucket should be full of CO2 from fermentation / off gassing, so bubbling CO2 up from the bottom should introduce any oxygen into the system. But you are right, you definitely want to be careful about this...

I brewed this up on 12/4/2011. We'll see how it went. I did the partial mash. I accidentally had too low of a finishing volume (was going for 2G, got 1.4G or so) due to an oversight, ended with 1.122 gravity. Diluted to 2G and added some corn sugar to make up for it, and finished at 1.099. So it isn't a pure recipe, we'll see how it turns out!

it smelled amazing and it's already fermenting away nicely with Safale S-04.

Nice, let us know how it went. I brewed the Lagunitas IPA on 12/4 also. Love the hoppy CO2 smell that comes out of the fermenter with that recipe!

cwheel said:

Nice, let us know how it went. I brewed the Lagunitas IPA on 12/4 also. Love the hoppy CO2 smell that comes out of the fermenter with that recipe!

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Heck yeah. I am starting to think that I'm becoming a student of the School of West Coast Ales... OK I don't know what I mean by that but I'm thinking that I am in love with the body and texture that wheat malt adds to these big beers. Your IPA had wheat in it, too? Bear Republic also makes beer like this (their IPA has wheat in it) so it isn't just a lagunitas thing.

2-row + Wheat + Munich + 60L appears to be the base for most of these tasty west coast style big american strong ales. who would have thought?

Yep!

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs 14.4 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 75.2 %
1 lbs 4.8 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 9.0 %
14.4 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.2 %
14.4 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 4 6.2 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.4 %



Funny thing is that when I first uploaded this recipe to Brewmasterswarehouse to buy the ingredients, I incorrectly added Caramunich instead of regular 9L Munich. I made a couple batches this way, and something never quite seemed right. I just figured this out a little while ago, so this batch is the first one I'll have made with the proper recipe. I don't know what almost 1 lb of Caramunich did in addition to all that Crystal, but I bet it's the reason I didn't like it 100%.

I'm also excited because I have the equipment to bubble CO2 during the dry hop procedure, just to see if I can match what the brewery does!

I'll send you one if it's any good!

cwheel said:

Yep!

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs 14.4 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 75.2 %
1 lbs 4.8 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 9.0 %
14.4 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.2 %
14.4 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 4 6.2 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.4 %



Funny thing is that when I first uploaded this recipe to Brewmasterswarehouse to buy the ingredients, I incorrectly added Caramunich instead of regular 9L Munich. I made a couple batches this way, and something never quite seemed right. I just figured this out a little while ago, so this batch is the first one I'll have made with the proper recipe. I don't know what almost 1 lb of Caramunich did in addition to all that Crystal, but I bet it's the reason I didn't like it 100%.

I'm also excited because I have the equipment to bubble CO2 during the dry hop procedure, just to see if I can match what the brewery does!

I'll send you one if it's any good!

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awesome. I'd love to try it! I did the same thing with caramunich but I realized it before I was at the register at the LHBS. I still haven't figured out the dry hop schedule yet. Little Sumpin' Sumpin' is the original idea, which is the maximus IPA schedule + 2 more hops. I can't figure out which would be more appropriate, but that's the fun part about experimentation, right?

Bottled this sucker last night.

2 weeks normal fermentation, then 1.5 weeks dry-hopped (no secondary) while we traveled for the holidays.

Finished at 1.022OG (measured after adding 1.4oz priming sugar to my 2gal, so likely it finished at 1.020-ish). This puts ABV at around 10.0-10.3%. Boom! S-04 you rock.

I did notice that for the first three weeks i could still see signs of fermentation. Once I bottled, however, it had almost completely stopped.

Remember that I deviated a bit from the recipe and added lots of corn sugar due to a miscalculation on my part. This I think ended up being a good thing because it dried it out and let it finish quite low.

Side note... one of the bottles broke when i capped, and i didn't want to rebottle in case there were glass shards. i didn't want to waste it either, so i poured it into a pint and drank 3/4 of it quickly as we headed out the door to a friend's house. It was uncarbonated but NOT BAD AT ALL! Boozy and bitter, but tasted great and smelled like hops. I can't wait to see how it turned out. I stirred up the yeast a bit on accident so hopefully it settles out into a nice brown color.

I found some extra notes from someone else who asked lagunitas for tips on brewing this beer. the only real additional info was that they suggested using flaked rye,wheat, and/or oats as well as chocolate malt. So the next incarnation of this may be with chocolate instead of 150L, and either flaked rye and/or flaked oats.

oh, and by the way i may have used up to like 13% of my malt bill with corn sugar to get the OG up. More than expected, but it helped dry it out.

So far, so good. It's a bit funky and taking awhile to carb up, but I think it turned out great. Jury's still out on whether or not this is a clone, but either way it's tasty! At almost 11%, it doesn't burn. I think this'll be quite tasty in a couple months.

I still have no idea how Lagunitas can bottle and sell their beer so close to fermentation, though.

Sitting here drinking a Lagunitas Imperial Red, and oh how I wish I could get that sweet, brown sugar, syrupy-hoppy taste that they have in almost all of their beers.

Do you like your clone? I'm going to brew this weekend, and trying to decide whether to do a Lil Sumpin Sumpin clone, or a Nugget Nectar clone. So many beers to try and clone, so little time (and money)!

When I visited the brewery, they said that sweet after taste is actually their yeast. But then they claim to use normal ale yeast, so I'm assuming it has to do with temperature control and how the yeast throw the off flavors?

My clone turned out great, I think, but I didn't add enough priming sugar or something because it is not carbing up. Not a fault of the recipe, but rather of my own inexperience with these huge barleywine style ales. In short, I'll answer that question in another 2-3 months . That's one thing I don' tknow how they do... how do they bring to market a 10% ale so quickly after brewing? I have to wait months before it mellows out.

I'd try the Lil Sumpin' Sumpin' clone or even their IPA. I think their IPA is a great foundation for any recipe. Nugget Nectar is actually Troegs I believe.

Yeah, NN is Troegs. My IPA clones have actually been sub-par recently. Don't know what's going on. That back-of-the-tongue sweetness from Lagunitas is so hard to duplicate. My beers end up being a little too thin, and not syrupy enough, if that makes sense. Sometimes I have a hard time believing that their beers are just barley, hops, yeast and water. I feel like they are adding cough syrup or something funky like that

I think I've decided to make the Sumpin Sumpin clone. Lots of "C" hops in the dry hop, which should smell delicious!

Really wish I could harvest the Lagunitas yeast, but I'm pretty sure they filter everything.

lil sumpin wild would be awesome

cwheel said:

Yeah, NN is Troegs. My IPA clones have actually been sub-par recently. Don't know what's going on. That back-of-the-tongue sweetness from Lagunitas is so hard to duplicate. My beers end up being a little too thin, and not syrupy enough, if that makes sense. Sometimes I have a hard time believing that their beers are just barley, hops, yeast and water. I feel like they are adding cough syrup or something funky like that

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Apparently Lagunitas mashes their IPAs really high, like 158F (inferred from side comments on the Jamil Show). That leaves less fermentable long-chain sugars, which could explain the sweetness.

I'm doing LSS next Monday. Never had the beer, but like the recipe!

EDIT: After responding this morning, I listened to the Jamil Show interview of the head brewer at Lagunitas. They actually mash the IPA at 160F to maximize the Alpha Amylaze aspect of conversion. Crazy, but apparently works... and yields a high FG with great mouthfeel. FWIW.

Very interesting thread. Please report back after the beer has had some time to condition. I too love Lagunitas. I spent 8 months on the west coast last year and drank every beer of theirs I could get my hands on. I am currently on a mission to clone the Lagunitas Sucks! Holiday Ale. I managed to lay hands on one sixer of it and was immediately smitten. It may be my favorite beer of all time.

Regarding the thick body: Definitely do a high mash. Lagunitas themselves say they do 158-160 mash on their IPA! Wheat is also a big ingredient. They use it in everything. I've got a decent body right now (the UCISDA is pretty thick, too) and I used both flaked wheat and regular wheat. I imagine that the flaked wheat helps a lot and I don't use a mash tun so I didn't worry about gumming it up.

Lagunitas also mentions that they raise the temps of the fermenter when dry hopping, perhaps this has something to do with it? I just remember asking them at the brewery about their house flavor, and his response was "It's the yeast. We use a proprietary strain, but if you call up a yeast lab and ask for a yeast close to ours, you'll get a very good strain. VERY good." So I think it's a combination of yeast and close temperature control to throw off exactly the right off flavors.

I'm still at a loss to explain how they can brew and bottle Brown Shugga (or any other 10% specialty) in 4 weeks. I asked them recently on their facebook how long they wait to bottle brown shugga, and they said they just ferment it up for 2 weeks and bottle it up.

Same w/ bells' hopslam. How can they push a 10% IIPA with fresh hops so quickly? I need all of my high alcohol beers to sit before they're ready, but that'd kill the hops aroma. There is some brewery black magic going on and it's definitely awesome. A sign of the "State of the Art", literally.

booherbg said:

I'm still at a loss to explain how they can brew and bottle Brown Shugga (or any other 10% specialty) in 4 weeks. I asked them recently on their facebook how long they wait to bottle brown shugga, and they said they just ferment it up for 2 weeks and bottle it up.

Same w/ bells' hopslam. How can they push a 10% IIPA with fresh hops so quickly? I need all of my high alcohol beers to sit before they're ready, but that'd kill the hops aroma. There is some brewery black magic going on and it's definitely awesome. A sign of the "State of the Art", literally.

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I've been fascinated by the same issue since I started listening to interviews and reading about pro beer production.

Reading between the lines, I think it has something to do with volumes--volumes of yeast pitched, volumes of beer in tall conical fermenters that supress ester formation and allow higher ferm temps (and thus faster ferments). I think they also get a certain amount of secondary fermentation in the bottles as those are shipped around the country.

Piratwolf said:

Reading between the lines, I think it has something to do with volumes--volumes of yeast pitched.

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This.
Breweries in general are pitching large quantities of fresh healthy yeast that immediately go to work on the next batch. A lot of breweries top crop so they're taking yeast that's already awake and working and it's immediately going into another beer.

Piratwolf said:

volumes of beer in tall conical fermenters that supress ester formation and allow higher ferm temps (and thus faster ferments).

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And this. Not really doable for 5 gallon batches in a bucket or carboy which is part of the reason we have to condition longer and ferment colder.

Rock on! Undercover Investigation Shutdown Ale is one of my all-time favorites too. I'm completely new to brewing, so I'd be delusional if I thought I could make a decent batch of the stuff at this point. So reading this thread has been highly enjoyable from a fantasy perspective, heh. Some day! (aspirational drooling)

Good luck, and hope your batches turn out well.

So before I do the next batch, here are my observations so far:

* The beer is sweet... too sweet though. Either I didn't get good attenuation (probably that's it) or mashed too high.

* Didn't carbonate very well. I think this makes it appear sweeter than it is.


Those are my two main observations at this point. I think the recipe is still in the ballpark, but unfortunately I need to re-do the batch, I think, in order to really get it up to par. I'm going to try again here in the next few months with more yeast, lower fermentation, and maybe more priming sugar (but that shouldn't affect it that much).

Booherbg - as you may or may not remember, I've been trying to clone the IPA and Lil Sumpin for a while now. Seems ridiculous that I can't get a good match even with the actual Lagunitas recipe, but I've still been missing that sweet toffee / caramel flavor that their beers seem to have (without being cloyingly sweet), and I can't believe it's just their yeast (I think it's their process).

Anyway, for the last Lil Sumpin clone I did, I did two things differently:

1) I used Tasty's water profile for his pale ales, which has quite a large amount of gypsum. Do a search, and you can easily find it. My starting water is similar to his, and I remember adding 1.5 TSP to the mash and 2.0 TSP to the sparge to get the 350 ppm.

2) I took the first liter of runnings from my cooler, and heated them up for about 30 minutes. Turned it into a slightly caramelized toffee sticky goo. It was the most delicious thing I've ever tasted. Anyway, I added that back into the boil with 10 minutes left.

So far it tastes good - I won't know if it's a good clone for another few weeks, but so far I think it's gotten me closer to their flavor than anything I've done to date.

Just something to keep in mind if you start looking for things to change...

thanks cwheel. good luck w/ your brews. i should probably start paying attention to water properties as well. that could have *a lot* to do with it.

I find it interesting that they don't have any late hop additions whatsoever (maybe the 20 min counts), I've definitely felt a recent trend towards massive late boil additions for hoppy beers, and they're absent in this recipe. Maybe the big dry hop lends all the aroma and flavor they need? Thoughts?

I degassed one I had left and it's FG was 1.017. I used the refractometer and got 11.2brix; so combined that means approx 1.090 SG.
The bottle says 1.085 SG, which would put FG at 1.012 for 9.7% ABV. So it starts 5 points up and finishes 5 points up of what they label says. Which makes sense because that high, real FG is a big part of where that sweetness comes from.

So I know not to focus on Lagunitas label numbers too much.

Plus, each batch is going to have the same label. I'm sure there's a tolerance that's allowed before a new label is printed.

Where's the update?

ultravista said:

Where's the update?

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Might as well dig this up from the dead. I actually saved a few bottles of this batch and opened them over the years. I may even have more left still today.

While the beer did not necessarily end up as an exact clone, I can tell you that time did wonderful things to this beer. I can remember the most recent bottle I opened, which would have been maybe 5 years old? Crazy how time flies by. The beer was still carbonated, and amazingly smooth. I shared it with a friend and we were both amazed at how mellow and smooth the beer was, for being almost 12% ABV. I think everyone should make a barleywine, sit on it, and enjoy it a year or two down the road. Every high ABV beer I've ever made -- even if it was 'hot' or off in some way within the first year -- always ends up mellowing out into something with more depth after a year or two. One of the subtle joys of homebrewing.

I may try this one again sometime soon.