Wine Barrel Project

I recently acquired a used 60 gallon wine barrel. (it is very fresh and smells fantastic) and in the process of making long term plans on its use. I have done a lot of research and there seem to be as many ideas as there are experienced brewers. We do have the ability to fill the barrel with multiple batches over a weekend. My long-term plan is to make this an ongoing Lambic project over many years removing 10 gallons or so at different intervals at least 9 months to a year or more apart. Some of the Lambic removed I plan on racking on sour cherries, raspberries, grapes or other fruit. Some I would just bottle as a straight Lambic. This way……(I am thinking) would be similar to blending. Also, this way I would not have to figure out what the hell I am going to do with bottling 500 bottles at one time. Does this seem like a crazy plan or do you think it is viable?



Also, I am wondering if I should pitch a Lambic blend or make up my own blend with a neutral yeast and vials of different bugs. I have read that it is not good to propagate the blends, as the growth rate is so different for each of the bugs. Should I purchase a commercial quantity made for a one-barrel batch?



Should I pitch everything right into the used wine barrel or pitch into multiple primaries with a neutral yeast and then rack all into the barrel and pitch the bugs?


Does anyone have ideas on this?

A group of us were looking at doing this a bit ago. Unfortunately, I don't have advice on the yeast/bugs, but as far as fermentation goes, we were going to ferment the beer, then add to the barrel and pitch the bugs.

- Your plan sounds great, and you will find a handful of people here are doing the same thing.

- As for yeast, I would purchase a quantity large enough for the whole 60 gallon batch. Remember this is the only time you are going to need to pitch yeast into that barrel. Even if one day you dump the whole thing, you can fill it up and rely on the yeast/bugs in the wood. So given its a one time thing, you might as well do it right.

- Since you are brewing them all in a single weekend, I would say as you finish brewing a batch, dump it into the barrel. Then once its (nearly) full, add the yeast. I don't think there is a problem with some of the wort sitting in the barrel without yeast for a day or two.

sounds like a solera. you can primary in the barrel, just make sure to leave room for the krausen. personally, I would primary outside of the barrel, you'd be wasting a lot of precious beer space otherwise.

I have this same project going. I have a bourbon barrel going on two years and a wine barrel going on one. My advice is to pitch a blend because it is simply easier. You should also primary outside of the barrel otherwise you will lose more and more space as you refill. Also, you will find that you can rack off more often than you are planning. If I wanted to I could probably rack off every 3-4 months. This is especially true after you hit the year mark and if you keg. One last tip, see if you can attach a spigot to the side of the barrel. This makes samples really easy.

Also, you might want to think about cleaning the barrel first before using it. I didn't do it with my bourbon barrel but did with my wine barrel. If you know it was recently drained you are probably okay.

infantej said:

One last tip, see if you can attach a spigot to the side of the barrel. This makes samples really easy.

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Do this:
http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2012/02/installing-sample-port.html

Are those casters capable of holding the weight of a full barrel? That set up will be well over 500 lbs when the barrel is full.

As for the culture, bottle dregs work well and I'm sure the lambic blend will work well too but I havent tried it. If you use your own cultures go easy on the lacto and pedio as they can overpower the beer and go heavier on the brett. Does anyone have any good info on what proportions of various bugs are found in real lambics?

I agree with doing primary somewhere else and then putting it into the barrel, although the primary may help to purge the barrel a bit.

The casters were extra from store displays we make. They are rated at 250 lbs. each.

this guy has done something very similar, I would suggest devoting about 15 hours to reading his website

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/03/sour-solera-beer-barrel.html

the mad fermentationist has been doing what you are describing basically. he has written a couple articles on it. there is this one and a few other under related posts.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/03/sour-solera-beer-barrel.html

levifunk said:

Do this:
http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2012/02/installing-sample-port.html

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morebeer did a video with Vinnie from Russian River and all Vinnie does is take a stainless steel nail and drilled a hole in the barre. then when he wants to take a sample he just pulls the nail out and then puts it back in. sounds simple and crazy but thats what he does.

Tinga said:

morebeer did a video with Vinnie from Russian River and all Vinnie does is take a stainless steel nail and drilled a hole in the barre. then when he wants to take a sample he just pulls the nail out and then puts it back in. sounds simple and crazy but thats what he does.

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Click the link, that's what he's suggesting. It's what a lot of brewers and vintners do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you contact the bug ranchers (White labs, ECY) to get a larger pitch of their cultures than what is commonly sold at your LHBS? I'd go that route if possible if this was my barrel.

Azurecybe said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you contact the bug ranchers (White labs, ECY) to get a larger pitch of their cultures than what is commonly sold at your LHBS? I'd go that route if possible if this was my barrel.

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I think you're underestimating the huge growth that Brett, Lacto & Pedio go through. Brettanomyces has been shown to multiply 3-5x more than Sacc in simple starters.

I do 10 gallon lambics and only pitch one smack pack of Wyeast Lambic Blend with excellent results.

AmandaK said:

I think you're underestimating the huge growth that Brett, Lacto & Pedio go through. Brettanomyces has been shown to multiply 3-5x more than Sacc in simple starters.

I do 10 gallon lambics and only pitch one smack pack of Wyeast Lambic Blend with excellent results.

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I agree. I inoculated a one gallon batch with just the dregs of a 750ml of my year old lambic from the wyeast lambic blend.

I would worry about drilling a hole in the barrel.....but I also worry about how I will draw samples over the years. I was thinking about using a large syringe with a long needle. Is that a crazy idea?

funblock said:

I would worry about drilling a hole in the barrel.....but I also worry about how I will draw samples over the years. I was thinking about using a large syringe with a long needle. Is that a crazy idea?

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Yes, that is crazy. Follow the instructions on the SS nail. Its super easy, and safe. I was a bit worried before doing it as well, but now that I see it and have used it for sampling, I wouldn't do it any other way.

I wonder if it would be easier to use a small stainless steel screw with a washer and gasket? Also, if after a year or so, I plan on drawing out some to add to a secondary with fruit would that not also be a problem with breaking the pellicle.

I have three 59 gallon french oak wine barrels going in my basement.

One is a used chardonney barrel that we just racked our second "turbid mash lambic" into after the pulling out and bottling the first one we did over two years ago.

The other two are merlot barrels that we did 100+ gallons of Russian River Consecretion clone in... that's the second run of that beer and unfortunately, that batch got ruined (long story and don't worry... you have little chance of repeating THAT f-up). The first run of that beer we did a couple of years ago is tremendous.

Couple of thoughts...

- I wouldn't primary in the barrels. I would primary ferment in something else and then rack to the barrels for a long secondary rest either with or without bugs. If you are going to primary, you'll either have to only fill it half way or deal with massive blow-out. Once it blows out, it'll be hard to keep it sanitary (if you aren't using bugs) and if you only fill it half way, you'll need to top off anyway. In addition, if you primary in the barrel, you'll have a massive yeast cake that'll only get bigger and bigger and, personally, I don't like mybeers sitting on yeast cakes that long.


- If you aren't treating that barrel with sulfur sticks or keeping it fresh by some other means, I would use it ASAP. Barrels aren't really good at sitting around empty for any real period of time.

- That barrel looks like a red wine barrel, obviously from the stains... me, personally... I don't know how well red wine flavors and lambic flavors work together... that's why we did our lambic in a white wine barrel and the Consecretion in the red. Up to you though.

- For testing... I have large stainless steel screw hooks that I simply unscrew to pull a sample (remove the air lock or you're suck back your airlock liquid... and don't put it too close to the bottom or you'll get nothing but trub). Once I have the sample, I just screw it back in after a dip in star san.

... just saw the post right before mine... I've never needed a washer and gasket... the screw itself has always been enough on all of my barrels. If the hoel the screw is screwed into gets too loose over time (I've not had this problem) than all you do is dip the screw in a little melted bees wax (which is sanitary by nature) and screw it in... it'll seal up perfectly.

Sorry... one last note because I just saw your question... I always primary with a neutral yeast... US-05 specifically, rack to the barrels once primary is done and then pitch the bugs. For a full barrel, I tend to pitch half a dozen smack packs of Lambic Blend for the lambic and half a dozen Roselear for a barrel of the Consecretion. It's probably overkill given the growth rate for bugs but that's how I've done it.

I am planning on brewing this Winter when I can chill large quantities of wort without needing hundreds of lbs. of ice. I have filled the barrel with a 200 ppm mixture of Potassium metabisulfit as I have seen in many threads on this forum and elsewhere. I am still not sure about doing a primary in other fermenters as I don't know if I have the capacity. I do have a 15 gallon conical and lots of 7 gallon buckets, but I am not sure how I would ferment all these consistently. I also would not want a ton of trub in the bottom of the barrel either. Maybe I should get a 30 gallon conical to add to my collection. Then with that and the 15 and a few of the 7 gallon buckets I should be set.

You're way overthinking the nail thing. Just use the stainless nail. My oldest barrel has been aging lambic for about 30 months now (will be emptied this year yet), held brandy Angels Share at Lost Abbey for a year before that, and has had a nail in it all that time. Not sure if the nail was in there when it held brandy. No leaks and no rust on the nail.

I am planning on pulling off about 10 gallons every year or so to either bottle or rack to a secondary with fruit. I am worried about doing that through the bung as well. What are other people doing with a solara type project.

@funblock - same as you. Adding and racking. I'm doing a quasi-open fermentation and no issues came up. Racking through the bung will be just fine. Just sanitize all your tools as you normally would. What gets through that opening doesn't hold a candle to what's in the barrel.

Good luck!

I'm wanting to do something similar with a 10 gallon barrel because I don't have any friends that homebrew. There are no local clubs either. Are there any issues with using a 10 gallon barrel and pulling 5 gallons once a year?

Think about a large plastic carboy instead and add oak. Small barrels allow too much O2 in relative to volume. Those small barrels are better for quick aging. But for sours/wilds, the added O2 will create too much acetic acid.

I used a 10G oak barrel for a year with Lacto, pedio and bretts. No acetic produced and didn't top off. Just don't open it a bunch for tastings. Keep calm and brew on.

At one point I had 2-60G, 2-30G and the 10G all full of sours at the same time. That is way to much to package for yourself. I was so glad when one 30G went bad and had to be dumped. Now I am down to 1-60G and plan on bottling 30G soon and giving some away. From there my sours will go down to some 5G glass and maybe the 10G barrel. Some day I want to fill a 60G with a brett finished something, but not for some time. All the above mentioned barrels were fermented in with blow a off line and topped when done with finished beer. I used wyeast 3787 in most of the beers with a low ferm temp to keep the esters low.

Next time I would add bretts at 6 months before the lacto to clean beer (IE no trub or dead yeast). The bottle dregs do add some great flavors, but for me to large of a risk for a 60G barrel. Seems like a small brett pitch can not compete with the lacto and pedio and I ended up with more of a sour than balanced between brett and sourness.

BW

Oh good! I had problems with oxidization making english beers in smaller oak barrels. Then, while making a sour, I didn't flush my carboy with co2 and the bugs got WAY too crazy and basically made something closer to vinegar. O2 in sours is a serious deal, either way you go, mind your O2

It was odd the 30G went bad, but the 10G held in there. Goes to show you even good parents can raise a bad beer.

I've used a stainless nail over a year and a half and have pulled 20l just 3 months ago. It is the way to go. I purge with CO2 before adding the new beer and make sure to use a silicone bung that has a purge valve to release CO2, other wise I'm sure I would see a bung across the room.