too sweet?

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wiseman

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I brewed a big beer according to recipe i found on tastybrew.com. It had 13 pounds of dry malt in a 5 gallon batch, but I ended up watering it down to 6 because it seemed a bit excessive.

It fermented for 4 weeks and then I bottled last monday. I just popped one open today and the flavors present are great but it's way too sweet. Did I just throw too much malt at my yeast (SAFALE S-04)? The beer was carbonated when I opened it which I guess means the yeast is still doing its thing. Should i just give it another week or two to see how it turns out?

recipe:

6 pounds light dme
6 pounds amber dme
1 pound dark dme
2 oz northern brewer 60min
1 oz perle 30 min
1 oz hollertauer 10 min

I'm concerned now because I have already taken everything out of the fermentor and bottled it. Perhaps it is a learning experience, but the ingredients were an 80 dollar christmas gift from my brother and I really don't want to chalk this up to a loss.
 
Last Monday isn't long enough. I don't bother to taste mine until at least 3 weeks. And probably longer with a bigger beer like that. What was the SG when you bottled?
 
That original recipe IS a monster. According to BeerSmith, that is going to have (approximately) an OG of 1.114 with an estimated FG of 1.028 (11.2% ABV). It would have a sweet characteristic because the IBU would only be around 16.

Reducing it to 6lbs of extracts (assuming evenly distribution of original recipe) would bring the OG down to 1.052 and the FG to 1.014 (5.1% ABV) with a bitterness rating of about 50, which shouldn't have a sweet characteristic. It should have a rather nice hop punch. I would DEFINITELY taste this again in two or three more weeks and it should settle quite a bit... is there any hop aroma to it yet?
 
I'll do my best to answer the questions here.

I made a 2 liter yeast starter. Fermentation was so vigorous it blew the top off of my brew pail within 24 hours.

the recipe was given as an imperial stout (which, obviously, it isn't) and had an ABV of 11%. It was definitely an "and" not an "or"

Not sure about your math, but with 4 ounces of hops dumped in the way I did it, that makes an IBU of 33, which is what it tastes like to me. Lots of hop taste, lots of bitterness, great aroma.

and to everyone who asked what the gravities were on it, I have no idea. I haven't got myself a hydrometer yet. Probably should get one of those at some point, huh.
 
Crunching the numbers:

IBUs are closer to 50, but the malt bill is still huge. It is going to be a little sweet even if it fermented fully. You would have needed at least 50% more hops to balance that out better.

edit: With a reasonable 70% attenuation, you still have a 11.5% ABV beer on your hands. You would need closer to 100 IBUs to balance that thing out.
 
I would DEFINITELY taste this again in two or three more weeks and it should settle quite a bit... is there any hop aroma to it yet?
It's really not going to get any sweeter. Not only is it way over the top on the malt side, but what is going to happen in the bottle to change that aside from a bacterial infection?


Did you make a hefty yeast starter to handle all that malt? What was your FG?
He used S-04, a dry yeast which assuming he hydrated it properly would benefit from not using a starter.
 
I got a Imperial Stout on deck waiting to be put on right now. The establishment that I purchased the kit from recommended at least 6 months of bottle aging. It is supposed to be close to 10% ABV (est. 1.091 OG) so I am going to suggest you do the same. I'm thinking time (and a lot of it) will take care of some of the sweetness... How much.... I don't know.

Another little thing I learned from reading up on big brews is past a certain OG you aught to bump up the amount of dry yeast pitched (increase the cell count). I can't seem to find the magic number anywhere, but I am thinking an OG above 1.060 should get more yeast (if I remember correctly). I am going to pitch two packs of SA-04 on mine.
 
When I brew a batch that is either too hoppy or too sweet I blend it with other beers. This often(if not always) saves the batch. It also gives me another brew to taste. With that grain bill you will have to wait awhile to taste.
 
surprised someone hasnt posted the normal answer or "send it to me and I will dispose of it properly" ha ha
 
as for what to do with it now, it certainly couldn't hurt to wait and see if it improves but if it doesn't, blending it in the glass with bitter beers is probably your best bet.

my experience has been that even with huge yeast starters, big hop rates, sparing use of specialty malts and good temperature control my big extract beers always tended to come out too sweet. extract is generally produced to have "average" fermentability. it's my suspicion that some companies even make it less fermentable than that because they know that a lot of people are going to use more corn sugar than they should in order to keep the price down on the batch. but that's just a suspicion. a big beer like this is going to need a more fermentable wort to come out balanced.

in order to get my big extract beers dry enough i now replace some of the malt extract with sugar to ligthen up the final product. i wouldn't do this with a 1.050 beer, but for the big stuff it's o.k. also doing partial mashes is a good interim step to get some control over wort fermentability.
 
He used S-04, a dry yeast which assuming he hydrated it properly would benefit from not using a starter.

It was my understanding that high gravity beers required a yeast starter, period. What do you do? Pitch 3 packets of dry yeast?
 
It was my understanding that high gravity beers required a yeast starter, period. What do you do? Pitch 3 packets of dry yeast?

It's all about that viable cell count. Since dry yeast already has such a high cell count a starter is not needed and even not recommended by the manufacturers. If the gravity or volume is high enough, you should use 2 packets.

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php#B said:
The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

* There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons.
* A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager.

Pitching From Tubes, Packs, or Dry Yeast

Both White Labs and Wyeast make fantastic products and you can't go wrong with either one. There are differences between their strains and each brand has pluses and minuses yet neither is better than the other across the board. Use the brand your local homebrew shop carries, if you need a way to decide.

A White Labs tube has between 70 and 120 billion cells of 100% viable yeast, depending on the yeast strain. Some cells are much larger than others and there are more or less per ml based on size. (The information on the White Labs web site stating 30 to 50 billion cells is out of date.) We can just assume there are around 100 billion very healthy yeast. You would need 2 tubes if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!

Some exciting work has been done on dry yeast lately. Reports are coming in of better quality, cleaner dry yeast. Personally, I really prefer the liquid yeasts, but the lure of dry yeast is strong. The biggest benefit is that it is cheap and does not require a starter. In fact, with most dry yeasts, placing them in a starter would just deplete the reserves that the yeast manufacturer worked so hard to build into the yeast. Most dry yeast has an average cell density of 20 billion cells per gram. You would need about 9.5 grams of dry yeast if you were pitching into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. (Recently there have been other numbers mentioned for cells/gram of dry yeast and folks have asked me why I believe there are 20 billion cells. I've actually done cell counts on dry yeast and they're always 20 billion per gram +/- less than a billion. Dr. Clayton Cone has also stated that there are 20 billion per gram, and other folks I trust tell me that 20 billion is correct. Until I see something different, practical experience tells me this number is correct.) For dry yeasts, just do a proper rehydration in tap water, do not do a starter.
 
Had a similar experience with a Scotch Ale. 9.9 pounds of LME along with some other goodies thrown in. Let it sit in the bottle two weeks, had a taste and thought it was okay but certainly sweet and not enjoyable. Let it wait another two weeks, had some more and it was still too sweet. Well, decided to muscle through it, having a beer or a few per week just to be done with it and free up the bottles.

16 weeks into, it was some of the most flavorful, balanced, and intriguing beer I have ever tasted. When it hit this point, there were 12 bottles left.

Take those bottles and forget about them for two or three months.
 
update:

I gave it another week to see how she's going along and it looks like things are beginning to resolve themselves already. The sweetness is dying down and the maltyness is coming through better. The hop aroma is very good. SWMBO still doesn't like it, but she's a miller fan. One thing I did notice is it is incredibly thick still. The head on it is like whipped cream and it just stays there, which isn't a bad thing but it is kind of unusual.
 
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