Clone Beer Founder's Breakfast Stout Clone

Please forgive me for the dumb question but i just want to get it right. The 2 oz Ground Sumatran coffee at flameout is brewed coffee or is just the actual gound coffee?

MoronBrothersBrewery said:

Please forgive me for the dumb question but i just want to get it right. The 2 oz Ground Sumatran coffee at flameout is brewed coffee or is just the actual gound coffee?

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Grounds, I suggest a 1 gallon paint strainer bag or hop bag.

Grounds, or whole beans, your choice really.

I did a rather course grind on them, maybe 4-5 seconds in the grinder to bust them all open and get more surface area.

2oz of brewed coffee will easily get lost in there at flameout.

I did 2oz ground, and boiled it for 1 minute I think, I'll look at my recipe. I then racked it on beans un ground for a week with bourbon oak chips and cocoa nibs. It's pretty damn coffee forward. Aroma is through the roof. It's bitter from the coffee, must like the smooth hop bitterness.

It needs aging however, so I think all the coffee is necessary anyways to balance it. Coffee will fade with time, and be the first to go.

AOD said:

Hey all, sorry I haven't responded in a while, it's been fun reading about the folks making this beer though! Last year I made a similar beer (recipe posted back in ~Oct of last year) and did the bourbon / oak treatment on the beer. This year I'm going to use this recipe again, but slightly cranked up to get just a bit closer to Founders KBS. I'm going in small steps since this is a big beer, shooting for the ~10% to 10.3% range this year. (KBS is 11.3%, mind you.)

This recipe here is invaluable for the coffee and chocolate additions. If you do those methods, it works pretty well.



This is a fun topic. Just like homebrewing; there's no wrong way. I personally added at flameout and cold steep during kegging last year. It tasted great, but towards the end of the keg (6 months or so) I noticed a "green pepper" character coming out of the coffee. Some people cannot taste this! Some people can!!

In fact, the beer that won 1st place at the National Hombrewers Competition this year in Wood Aged was an Imperial Breakfast Stout with Bourbon...and some of the judges got a distinct "green pepper" where others did not. It's crazy.

SO...for me, this year I will adjust my beer to remove the cold steep coffee and use a "dry beaning" process instead. I will add the Kona coffee to the secondary as whole beans. This will eliminate one variable from last year and replace it with another. I will continue to use the "flameout" boil for Sumatra.

YMMV...but I felt it was worth sharing my experience.

Cheers!
~Adam

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This is what I did on my first try with it. Whole bean additions which won't impart the harsher flavors. I also kept the secondary cold, like 40* and let it sit, so it wasn't steeping the beans as harshly. I have a very smooth coffee flavor with that secondary addition.

By the way, forgot to add...

I thought mine turned out really well, it's still very very young right now, but tastes pretty good at the moment with the little tasters I'm pulling every once in a while off the keg.

I do however, wish it had a bit more body to it. Mines relatively thin, or perhaps thinner than I expected it. I have an old FBS sitting around that I should drink side by side and make notes with. Flavor wise, it's close.

MoronBrothersBrewery said:

Please forgive me for the dumb question but i just want to get it right. The 2 oz Ground Sumatran coffee at flameout is brewed coffee or is just the actual gound coffee?

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The freshly ground, unbrewed coffee grounds (I used Papanicholas French Roast, but that's just a matter of taste- it's what we drink every mornning). I threw them in at flameout, and left them......they of course ended up in the trub. Massive trub in this beer, what with all the chocolate, coffee, and of course the hops.*

*Yes, I know, a lot of people take out everything they can. I don't, and I nailed this sucker.

I don't plan on adding the bourbon, anyone totally against that idea? Wife isn't a big fan.

sivdrinks said:

I don't plan on adding the bourbon, anyone totally against that idea? Wife isn't a big fan.

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I did half on burbon oak and left half alone. I really like both, so you will be fine without it.

And for the second coffee addition, I did cold brewed coffee and added the liquid to the secondary

Wow, thanks for the discussion, guys. I was just thinking about how to do the coffee in secondary for my FBS clone. Good timing!

Yeah the trub is un real. I actually strained it best I could, and holy jesus, I still had 4 inches of trub..

It's drinking good though, although young. I'll post a pic.

Bourbon is NOT required for the original Breakfast Stout beer!

My water was straight RO with 1 tablespoon of 5.2 buffer....which I would do again with a big stout like this, even though I've started doing mineral additions to my other beers since I made the Founders KBS.

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I've started mineral additions on my beers for the past ~1 year now too, originally using the 5.2 buffer, but now moved away. Any specific reason you would not treat your Illinois (well?) water? I grew up there...

I live in the mountains of North Carolina, our water is fairly neutral and best for light lagers. I tend to adjust with the normals: Gypsum, CaCl, Epsom Salt (maltiness and Calcium for yeast) and a touch of Baking Soda (carbonate) for dark beer.

I would be worried about screwing this up though! I'll check my notes, but it appears I did not adjust last year when I brewed this.

Cheers,
~Adam

So I brewed my version of this back in may, and just tasted it last weekend. It was heavy on the coffee. Anyone tried to dry nib this? Is that even a thing? How much, how long?

I brewed it not long ago, and I agree. It's extremely heavy on the coffee. I'd end up next time dropping back the kettle addition atleats by half.

I dry nib'd mine with cocoa nibs, and whole coffee beans, still pretty heavy.

Thinking about trying some lactose to cut the coffee with some sweetness.

FATC1TY said:

I brewed it not long ago, and I agree. It's extremely heavy on the coffee. I'd end up next time dropping back the kettle addition atleats by half.

I dry nib'd mine with cocoa nibs, and whole coffee beans, still pretty heavy.

Thinking about trying some lactose to cut the coffee with some sweetness.

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How long is not long ago?

pabloj13 said:

How long is not long ago?

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I think 2 months almost. I'll have to dig the crap out of the keezer and look, or find where my wife moved my brew book recipes off my desk, along with everything else in my man room!

But I think it's been close to 2 months.. maybe 1 1/2 or so.

FATC1TY said:

I think 2 months almost. I'll have to dig the crap out of the keezer and look, or find where my wife moved my brew book recipes off my desk, along with everything else in my man room!

But I think it's been close to 2 months.. maybe 1 1/2 or so.

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From what I understand that is WAY too young. I think the coffee fades with time and you probably want to age it 6 months+. That's my plan anyway. Mine is in about the same stage as yours.

pabloj13 said:

From what I understand that is WAY too young. I think the coffee fades with time and you probably want to age it 6 months+. That's my plan anyway. Mine is in about the same stage as yours.

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Oh, I know it's really young, I wasn't saying otherwise. I was just saying that the coffee is really, really overpowering, and while the beer needs to age, and coffee does fade, I think even in 6 months, the coffee is still going to be more pronounced than it should be to balance the recipe a bit.

I like coffee, and while this doesn't taste bad, I'm glad I don't have the acrid bitter coffee bite that I've had in some coffee stouts.

interesting development on my end:

brewed on Memorial Day, spent 5 weeks in primary, and has been in secondary ever since (~2 months now). i've just returned from vacation so i took a peak at the carboy for the first time in a month. when i last saw it the surface of the liquid was clear & smooth. i had added 2 vanilla beans and an additional 1.5 oz of chocolate nibs to secondary, each addition soaked in bourbon (added the bourbon as well).

so what did i see today? there is a thin layer of that "chocolate mousse" on the surface of the brew (just like the stuff i mentioned at the bottom of page 29 of this thread). also, gravity dropped from 1.027 to 1.025.

methinks it's either:

1) an infection. it could explain the mousse and the drop in gravity. i tasted the gravity sample and it didn't taste sour, but it could be too early on in the souring process to taste much.

or

2) i'm being paranoid and need to RDWHAHB. the mousse is meaningless, maybe the beans or nib additions stirred things up (nucleation?). the drop in gravity is due to the bourbon that was added (around a cup), and/or general user error, and /or solids precipitating out of suspension and/or rising to the surface (the mousse) and/or any number of other reasons. the brew is over 8% alcohol at this point, not a whole lot can take hold as far as i know - not that i know a whole lot about sours, infections, etc.

luckily i don't need that carboy in the immediate future, so i'll let this ride out for a little longer and make sure it's not option 1. if it is, i'll get a bucket to let it run its course and be the proud creator of the world's first chocolate oatmeal coffee bourbon sour stout. say that three times quickly.

anyone else witness the re-appearance of the mousse in secondary, after some time?

I wouldn't sweat the "mousse" thing...it's probably a combination of quite a few things! Chocolate has fat / oils; they tend to float. You could also have some yeast floating or hop trub that didn't fall out. All the other complexities of this beer create that, and as others have posted, there's always significant trub or floaty stuff on this beer.

Cheers!
~Adam

AOD said:

I wouldn't sweat the "mousse" thing...it's probably a combination of quite a few things! Chocolate has fat / oils; they tend to float. You could also have some yeast floating or hop trub that didn't fall out. All the other complexities of this beer create that, and as others have posted, there's always significant trub or floaty stuff on this beer.

Cheers!
~Adam

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oh, i'm not worried about the mousse per se. i've had it before at the end of primary. what had me mildly concerned was that:
- i racked to secondary leaving all the mousse behind in the primary vessel
- my secondary showed no mousse for the first 3-4 weeks
- i leave for a month, and return to mousse. since that mousse is very similar to krausen, i thought some sort of fermentation might have started.

i brewed this batch 3 months ago. floating yeast and hop trub have long since fallen out (in fact i got rid of them when racking to secondary).

it could be, however, that my second nib addition created the mousse. hummm...

Now I'm wondering if I should nibs to my secondary?

Nibs in the secondary shouldn't hurt...

Sweetcall, you're just going to have to sample the beer and determine if there is a problem. Are you an experienced beer judge? If not, take the beer to someone who his and ask for honest opinion. Don't tell them the "mousse" part up front...just say, I made this stout, what do you think? Are there any flaws?

Cheers,
~Adam

Has anybody played with the water for this brew? If not, did any of you just use your city tap water? What is the water profile that you used if it was a good result?

JordanThomas said:

Has anybody played with the water for this brew? If not, did any of you just use your city tap water? What is the water profile that you used if it was a good result?

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I used the "Black balanced" profile on Bru'N water with good results. I had to adjust my city water to remove chloramine (Campden tablets) and to add alkalinity (Chalk in mash, Calcium chloride in sparge).

You should always charcoal filter your water, it will help make consistent beers.

AOD said:

You should always charcoal filter your water, it will help make consistent beers.

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I ran 7 gallons through my Brita during brewday. Guess what my bottleneck is.

AOD said:

You should always charcoal filter your water, it will help make consistent beers.

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Why would that make a difference?

I'm thinking of brewing this beer, but I have a few questions before I fully decide. I hope someone or even a few folks can help.

1> How long should this recipe condition/age before bottling?

2> I see this recipe calls for 2 packs of S-04. Are both packs added at the same time or split up??

I've never brewed a big beer like this before and need to get my feet wet. Thanks to any and all that answer my questions. It's much appreciated.

I boiled up 10G of this now 22 days ago. I did a yeast starter/step up of 1 1056 smack pack in 2L starter (on stir plate) then decanted, then put that cake on another 2L starter on stir plate. I then pitched that 2L cake as close to split evenly between the two 5 gallon carboys. I pitched slurry and wort at about 65 degrees. For the first 3 days (in 61 degree crawl space) the active fermentation climbed and stayed at about 75 degrees, maybe 74. I figured it would have dropped after 24 hours but it hung there for 3 days or so. (YIKES is what I say to that fermentation temp)

After 2 weeks of fermentation, I added coffee (4 oz ground, cold steeped in french press for 18 hours) and again split that between the two carboys. Now, 7 days later, I'm ready to keg it and finally pulled a sample to measure gravity and taste.

The only other time I made this I noted, when racking to keg, that the coffee was WAY strong on aroma and taste, but I know after conditioning in crawl space for 2+ months it got MUCH more balanced and was a definite crowd pleaser. This time, the coffee is much more subtle. Noticeable, but much less overpowering than last time. Also, I noted dried fruit this time similar to a RIS like plumb, etc. Fortunately I don't think I noticed much solventy flavor/texture I'd expect with fusels, so I might be clear of that, VERY luckily.

Questions - if I let the beer sit a few more days with coffee in it will the coffee impact grow, or should I go ahead and keg it?

Also, are there any tell-tale signs of fusels? I did notice some ester aromas (banana) from the airlock at day 14 but those seem to have gone away now or at least greatly subsided. I'm not sure of smell or flavor of fusels other than solventy and, after a pint or so, a raging head ache. The beer is not conditioned or carbonated yet, so I'm not ready to do the 'pint or so' test.

Any input on the above would be appreciated. I'm thinking maybe I should just not worry, HAHB, but there is a lot of time and effort put in to this brew and I don't know if I should keg now or let it sit in fermenter a little longer.

Thanks in advance...jeff

PS - OG 1.084, FG 1.023

If the coffee is to taste, pull it and condition it in bottles or kegs.

I put mine on cocoa nibs, coffee and bourbon barrel chips, all soaked in bourbon. Once the flavor was where I wanted it, or thought I wanted it, I pulled it and kegged it.

I tossed mine directly in the keg and chilled it. It's been in there for a little while. A little over a month at 36*. It's just now starting to mellow and taste pretty good. Coffee was out of it's mind strong and upfront. Chocolate now is starting to take the lead, and the bourbon and oak is softening around the edges a bit.

I'm tempted to pull it out of the keezer and let it sit for another month at room temp to speed up the aging process, and to make room in the keezer for other kegs I can drink faster. This big guy is just taking up space waiting to mellow.

However, I will say, that it does taste good now, and has a helluva head to when I pour it. Smells great, and it's gonna be good around the holidays for sure.

Irish13 said:

I'm thinking of brewing this beer, but I have a few questions before I fully decide. I hope someone or even a few folks can help.

1> How long should this recipe condition/age before bottling?

2> I see this recipe calls for 2 packs of S-04. Are both packs added at the same time or split up??

I've never brewed a big beer like this before and need to get my feet wet. Thanks to any and all that answer my questions. It's much appreciated.

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1> I am planning on going at least 6 months. Probably longer.

2> Add them at the same time at the beginning.

^^^^

Thanks! I thought this stout would take about 6 to 8 months but wasn't sure.

I am planning on doing this this weekend, but instead of brewed coffee I plan on soaking some whole beans in a really peaty scotch to try and pull a touch of wood into the mix. Can't wait, looks delicious.

Brewed this weekend. Ended up at 1.089. Not complaining.

Checked today and the airlock was bubbling like a champ.

Brewed it this weekend. Super aggressive fermenation with surprisingly little krausen.

jawilson20 said:

Brewed it this weekend. Super aggressive fermenation with surprisingly little krausen.

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All those oils from the chocolate will kill the krausen, which is exactly why I used a bucket for this one. So, nothing to worry about there!

JordanThomas said:

All those oils from the chocolate will kill the krausen, which is exactly why I used a bucket for this one. So, nothing to worry about there!

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Yeah that is the gist of what I got after reading the thread.

Now for a question on aging, I really would like to have this guy drinkable by mid November. Reading the comments it sounds like the coffee needs sometime to mellow out. What do you think of skipping the second coffee addtion?

Dumb Question - How do you 'cold brew' this coffee and how do you keep it sanitized before adding it to the secondary?

Everything I read on this was to combine the grounds and water and let it sit at room temperature for 8 - 24 hours then strain but this just seems like a recipe for infection.

barhoc11 said:

Dumb Question - How do you 'cold brew' this coffee and how do you keep it sanitized before adding it to the secondary?

Everything I read on this was to combine the grounds and water and let it sit at room temperature for 8 - 24 hours then strain but this just seems like a recipe for infection.

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There's actually a couple ways but one of the best I have heard is done with a French Press. Grind the proper amount of coffee and fill the press with the proper amount of water, fit the press as usual and toss in the fridge for 24 hours. After the 24hr period press and pour the coffee. There's someone at my work place that does this every day.

I'd suggest santizing the press and plunger along with boiling the water you're planning to use.