Hard cider apple juice problem

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NYHC718

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Well it's not exactly hard cider if I'm using store bought apple juice but its really bothering me the fact that I don't know if I'm doing something wrong. About a month ago I bought kedem brand apple juice from stop n shop because it was the cheapest apple juice and I looked at the ingredients and it said it did not include potassium sorbate. Well I just dumped that batch because I almost threw up when I smelled it because it never fermented and it smelled horrible. Yesterday I started apple & eve apple juice from Walmart and it still looks like the same thing is happening. I'm doing a 1 gallon batch, crushed a campden tablet waited 24 hours before putting Lalvin ec118 and a little wyeast nutrients and again it looks like nothing is going on. Is it the apple juice that secretly has potassium sorbate in it that it just doesn't say in the ingredients? Did anyone ever use these brands I searched multiple times and couldn't find anyone that used the brand I'm using. I'm about to just give up and wait until I can get my hands on natural apple cider but its a little difficult considering I'm from Brooklyn and there are no farms around here. Any suggestions?
 
It can take more than 24 hours for the ferment to establish. Does the label list a benzoate product? If so, there is the problem. I have used many products which contain sorbate and ferment is achieved, though best to avoid if you can.
Just make sure your must is around 70F, give it a stir 1-2x a day and you should see ferment soon.
 
Your not going to see much "going on", perhaps a small ring of bubbles around the outer surface of the apple juice. As mentioned previously more often than not take 2-3 days before you may "see" any activity. As for the smell you have mentioned, if it is a strong sulfur smell this is normal, although in my experience when making 5 gallons batches I don't notice it until at least the 5-7 day mark, it is commonly referred to here on HBT as "rhino farts". I have made somewhere around 50 gallons of cider/apfelwein using EdWort's recipe/method with great success.
 
It sounds to me like you might be buying incorrect juice. Buy juice that lists nothing but juice and Ascorbic Acid as the ingredients. Crush one campden tablet per gallon into the juice, and make sure you wait 24 hours until you pitch. Gently mix the yeast in when you pitch, and within 24-36 you should start to see some real activity, at least I did when I made mine.
 
I have successfully made 3 or 4 5 gallon batches using Kadeem apple juice from stop and shop because during Jewish holidays it is 3 half gallon bottles for $5. I do not use campden tablets and pitch rehydrated Nottingham.
 
Just a noob here, but I have four batches with various brands of store bought juice going. One of them took a full 24 hours to get going, so hang in there. You may want to check and make sure you have a good seal on your stopper. I had one batch that wasn't bubbling through the airlock, turns out the stopper wasn't tight enough. I've been shaking the heck out of my fermenter when I add sugar, it helps dissolve the sugar, and oxygenates the juice. Keep in mind if your juice is pasteurized, the campden tablets aren't needed. Hope this helps, don't get discouraged, sanitize well and keep trying!
 
truck1985 said:
It sounds to me like you might be buying incorrect juice. Buy juice that lists nothing but juice and Ascorbic Acid as the ingredients. Crush one campden tablet per gallon into the juice, and make sure you wait 24 hours until you pitch. Gently mix the yeast in when you pitch, and within 24-36 you should start to see some real activity, at least I did when I made mine.

I made my first batch of cider yesterday and I did not camden tablets, are they needed? I called Northern Brewers and they just told me to double my yeast nutrient. For apple juice I used the Cosco brand that just has on the label "from freest pressed apples". For yeast I used the RED Star brand and I have my fridge set on 65 degrees. Should I have used actual cider, will the cider make because I did not use the camden tablets, and do I need to ferment at a higher temp? The apple juice turned from a crystal clear to a hazy gold color with a ring of bubbles around the edge and a few in and around the middle also SG was 1.050. What am I loping for in FG and time until completion?
 
I made my first batch of cider yesterday and I did not camden tablets, are they needed? I called Northern Brewers and they just told me to double my yeast nutrient. For apple juice I used the Cosco brand that just has on the label "from freest pressed apples". For yeast I used the RED Star brand and I have my fridge set on 65 degrees. Should I have used actual cider, will the cider make because I did not use the camden tablets, and do I need to ferment at a higher temp? The apple juice turned from a crystal clear to a hazy gold color with a ring of bubbles around the edge and a few in and around the middle also SG was 1.050. What am I loping for in FG and time until completion?

I used a Champagne Yeast when I made mine. I was told both by my supplier and by a recipe book I have that campden is needed, since you can't really boil your must, other wise you open up the pectins and it will turn to jelly. I fermented at room temperature (about 70-75 degrees F). Juice works just fine. I prefer a dry cider, so I would ferment to dryness, or until the fermentation stops on its own, about 0.99 Specific Gravity. Though, you might have a problem carbonating if you expect to naturally carbonate in the bottles.
 
Maybe you need to go to the heath food store, buy some expensive "no preservative" juice" and see if you get the same results? That way at least you will know if it's you or the juice you are buying or something is horribly wrong with your process. Wait till you have one you know has no preservatives rather than buying cheap and hoping they are truthful.

I have been using Musselman's apple juice with success:

103jucappl48_xlg.jpg
 
truck1985 said:
I used a Champagne Yeast when I made mine. I was told both by my supplier and by a recipe book I have that campden is needed, since you can't really boil your must, other wise you open up the pectins and it will turn to jelly. I fermented at room temperature (about 70-75 degrees F). Juice works just fine. I prefer a dry cider, so I would ferment to dryness, or until the fermentation stops on its own, about 0.99 Specific Gravity. Though, you might have a problem carbonating if you expect to naturally carbonate in the bottles.

Would it be to late to put the Camden tablets in it now? I nixed it up yesterday about lunch time.
 
Would it be to late to put the Camden tablets in it now? I nixed it up yesterday about lunch time.
You are probably better off not opening it again right now. Let it go and see what happens.

A lot of people made really good wines and ciders before they knew they "needed" campden.
 
LBussy said:
You are probably better off not opening it again right now. Let it go and see what happens.

A lot of people made really good wines and ciders before they knew they "needed" campden.

Is the Camden used before fermentation when you pitch yeast or after fermentation?
 
Camden tablets are used at least 24 hours before you pitch your yeast. They prevent the natural yeast that is present in unpasteurized from reproducing.
 
stevetree said:
Camden tablets are used at least 24 hours before you pitch your yeast. They prevent the natural yeast that is present in unpasteurized from reproducing.

*present in unpasteurized juice

BTW I have used Santa Cruz organic, Martinelli's, and the cheap store brands and all are fermenting. We'll see which tastes best soon :)
 
Would it be to late to put the Camden tablets in it now? I nixed it up yesterday about lunch time.


50 gallons or so and I have never used a Camden tablet. And generally the juice I use is the Member Mark brand from Sam's Club.

mm apple juice.jpg

Ingredients:
Filtered water, apple juice concentrate, ascorbic acid (vitamin c).
 
bad67z said:
50 gallons or so and I have never used a Camden tablet. And generally the juice I use is the Member Mark brand from Sam's Club.

Ingredients:
Filtered water, apple juice concentrate, ascorbic acid (vitamin c).

Good to know. Thanks everyone for the help
 
There's not really much point to adding campden prior to fermentation if you're using shelf stable grocery store juice since there's no bugs in the juice for the yeast to compete with.

Using it after fermentation is a matter of preference and practices, and will help prevent infection and oxidation. Beware anyone who says you NEED to use or do anything, there's infinite ways to make delicious cider.
 
50 gallons or so and I have never used a Camden tablet. And generally the juice I use is the Member Mark brand from Sam's Club.

View attachment 104739

Ingredients:
Filtered water, apple juice concentrate, ascorbic acid (vitamin c).

+1 to this. I'v made 30 or gallons of Drunken Emu and Graff and only had to dump 1 batch due to not reading lables. I generally use whatever is in sale cheapest. Last few batches used Safeway brand 100% Juice for $1.49 per 1/2 gal.
 
I have it room temperature right now and I forgot to mention I put a cup of brown sugar and 3 cinnamon sticks in it 24 hours before adding the yeast. Does possibly the brown sugar or cinnamon sticks has something to do with this? I bought the cinnamon sticks from the home brew store and I had the brown sugar. I looked at it today before I left for work and nothing is going on again it's almost like the same problem I had with my last batch. If this doesn't work I'm going to probably go to Costco and get the apple juice brand I know others have said worked with no problem. This is turning into a real bummer considering this is supposed to be the easiest thing to brew 😕
 
50 gallons or so and I have never used a Camden tablet. And generally the juice I use is the Member Mark brand from Sam's Club.

View attachment 104739

Ingredients:
Filtered water, apple juice concentrate, ascorbic acid (vitamin c).
I used the apple & eve brand from Walmart. It says it contains the exact same ingredients.
INGREDIENTS:
100% APPLE JUICE (FILTERED WATER SUFFICIENT TO RECONSTITUTE APPLE JUICE CONCENTRATE), ASCORBIC ACID (VITAMIN C).
I added one crushed Campden tablet, 1 cup of brown sugar, and 3 cinnamon sticks. I let it sit for 24 hours before rehydrating and pitching the lalvin ec-1118 yeast. It's now in a 1 gallon glass jug with airlock in my dark closet room temperature. Do you ever add any more sugar or cinnamon sticks to your batch?
 
There's not really much point to adding campden prior to fermentation if you're using shelf stable grocery store juice since there's no bugs in the juice for the yeast to compete with.

Using it after fermentation is a matter of preference and practices, and will help prevent infection and oxidation. Beware anyone who says you NEED to use or do anything, there's infinite ways to make delicious cider.

+1 to this. I just pour my ingredients into my fermentor and go.
 
I made my first batch of cider yesterday and I did not camden tablets, are they needed? I called Northern Brewers and they just told me to double my yeast nutrient. For apple juice I used the Cosco brand that just has on the label "from freest pressed apples". For yeast I used the RED Star brand and I have my fridge set on 65 degrees. Should I have used actual cider, will the cider make because I did not use the camden tablets, and do I need to ferment at a higher temp? The apple juice turned from a crystal clear to a hazy gold color with a ring of bubbles around the edge and a few in and around the middle also SG was 1.050. What am I loping for in FG and time until completion?

You are doing fine, you can add the Campden or potassium metabisulphite granules when your cider is dry, if you choose to. Many people opt to add it 8-12-24 hours prior to pitching yeast because it not only inhibits wild yeast it is an antibacterial and antioxidant. In the future check labels for benzoate or sorbate, they can be present in even pasteurized and fresh pressed products, the benzoate causes more issues than sorbate.
As far as when you could anticipate that 1.050 to dry out to 1.000 or less I would say 3-8 days, depending on your yeast, nutrient status, temp, etc. You are at 65F so you will likely fall on the longer side. Always check the temp range for the yeast you are using. If you are asking about the ACV, assuming you ferment to 1.000 you are looking at approximately 6.5% ACV.
 
I used the apple & eve brand from Walmart. It says it contains the exact same ingredients.
INGREDIENTS:
100% APPLE JUICE (FILTERED WATER SUFFICIENT TO RECONSTITUTE APPLE JUICE CONCENTRATE), ASCORBIC ACID (VITAMIN C).
I added one crushed Campden tablet, 1 cup of brown sugar, and 3 cinnamon sticks. I let it sit for 24 hours before rehydrating and pitching the lalvin ec-1118 yeast. It's now in a 1 gallon glass jug with airlock in my dark closet room temperature. Do you ever add any more sugar or cinnamon sticks to your batch?

I generally add corn sugar, brown sugar will work just fine. As for cinnamon, three sticks depending on the age and quality could be a hefty but that is up to your plate.

I make 5-6 gallon batches, I add 2-3 lbs of corn sugar and let it go for up to three months rack it off of the yeast cake (the use that cake to make skeeter pee/hard lemonade). Then add the cinnamon to the secondary 2-3 sticks to 5-6 gallons. I generally don't drink cider less than 6 months old, most of the time I wait a year before drinking. Check out the link in my first post to EdWorts Apffelwein it is the recipe I started out with.
 
bad67z said:
Your not going to see much "going on", perhaps a small ring of bubbles around the outer surface of the apple juice. As mentioned previously more often than not take 2-3 days before you may "see" any activity. As for the smell you have mentioned, if it is a strong sulfur smell this is normal, although in my experience when making 5 gallons batches I don't notice it until at least the 5-7 day mark, it is commonly referred to here on HBT as "rhino farts". I have made somewhere around 50 gallons of cider/apfelwein using EdWort's recipe/method with great success.

My home made recipe resembles EdWorts very closely, and yes after 3 glasses bliss happens.
 
There's not really much point to adding campden prior to fermentation if you're using shelf stable grocery store juice since there's no bugs in the juice for the yeast to compete with.

Using it after fermentation is a matter of preference and practices, and will help prevent infection and oxidation. Beware anyone who says you NEED to use or do anything, there's infinite ways to make delicious cider.
While this is true, keep in mind that using campden after your fermentation will make it so you can't carbonate naturally. I have to worry about this because I bottle instead of kegging. Also keep in mind that the reason that using campden is promoted by many is because unlike beer, you do not boil to create a wort. Campden is therefore used to ensure that your must is sterile.
 
I have it room temperature right now and I forgot to mention I put a cup of brown sugar and 3 cinnamon sticks in it 24 hours before adding the yeast. Does possibly the brown sugar or cinnamon sticks has something to do with this? I bought the cinnamon sticks from the home brew store and I had the brown sugar. I looked at it today before I left for work and nothing is going on again it's almost like the same problem I had with my last batch. If this doesn't work I'm going to probably go to Costco and get the apple juice brand I know others have said worked with no problem. This is turning into a real bummer considering this is supposed to be the easiest thing to brew 😕
Give it some time. Unlike beer that will show a very fast and furious fermentation, cider sometimes is more leisurely about fermenting.
 
Don't use campden tablets. They make your brew smell and taste like crap, they also inhibit your yeast production. I just pasteurize on the stove top if need be before fermentation. Works out very well. I only use the campden tablets to sterilize equipment.
 
Don't use campden tablets. They make your brew smell and taste like crap, they also inhibit your yeast production. I just pasteurize on the stove top if need be before fermentation. Works out very well. I only use the campden tablets to sterilize equipment.

What do you mean by pasteurize before fermentation? You have to be careful about heating your must before fermentation as this could cause pectins in the juice to "open" and congeal. I've used campden successfully, and never noticed any foul odor or taste from it.
 
While this is true, keep in mind that using campden after your fermentation will make it so you can't carbonate naturally. I have to worry about this because I bottle instead of kegging. Also keep in mind that the reason that using campden is promoted by many is because unlike beer, you do not boil to create a wort. Campden is therefore used to ensure that your must is sterile.

No, this is incorrect.

Campden does not kill yeast. Especially not a healthy colony at maximum population, and especially not a commercial strain. Even most wild yeasts will not be killed, although they may be slightly inhibited momentarily if in early stages.

It does kill bacteria and other spoilage organisms, as well as protect against oxidation.

It does not prevent bottle conditioning, nor does it make must or cider sterile.
 
If you're getting bad smells or flavors from using campden, you're either using it wrong, or are especially sensitive to it. Either way, it's a bad reason to tell others not to use it.
 
What do you mean by pasteurize before fermentation? You have to be careful about heating your must before fermentation as this could cause pectins in the juice to "open" and congeal. I've used campden successfully, and never noticed any foul odor or taste from it.

Some people but their juice in a pot and heat it to 140ish for a few minutes to kill most microorganisms but not hot enough to set the pectins.

Seems like a lot of work to me, but it works.
 
No, this is incorrect.

Campden does not kill yeast. Especially not a healthy colony at maximum population, and especially not a commercial strain. Even most wild yeasts will not be killed, although they may be slightly inhibited momentarily if in early stages.

It does kill bacteria and other spoilage organisms, as well as protect against oxidation.

It does not prevent bottle conditioning, nor does it make must or cider sterile.

Sodiummetabisulfite, which is all campden is, does kill bacteria, and anything else that is aerobic (requires air to live) which includes yeast. It does this by essentially removing the oxygen from the environment in which it is used. Conditioning is not the same as carbonating. It will bottle condition after adding campden, but won't carbonate.
 
From your own link . . .

It is a common misconception that campden tablet can be used to halt the ferment process in wine before all the available sugars are converted by the yeast, hence controlling the amount of residual sweetness in the final product. This however is not true. In order to halt fermentation, enough campden tablets would have to be added to render the wine undrinkable. Alternatively, when used in conjunction with potassium sorbate, the yeast population will be greatly reduced and prevented from reproducing. Without the addition of potassium sorbate the yeast population will only be stunned and eventually repopulate if provided with enough fermentable sugars


For your reading pleasure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottle_conditioning
 
I am fermenting my first cider batch, I just bought organic apple juice from Whole foods added Dry Pectic Enzyme and some champagne yeast and 1/2 cup sugar had nice smell like sweet apple pie for about a week now its not doing much, its only 1 gallon so ill leave it a few more weeks then rack to another carboy to age.
 
Bottle conditioning, in beer brewing, is synonymous with carbonation. I suppose Cider spans the two different sides of the same coin so there is some overlap. Semantics don't make drinks.

Campden will stop yeast when you want it to keep going, and it will allow yeast to thrive when you do not. There's a critical need detector in it - very small machine, you'd never know it's there. Sometimes it will prevent carbonation. Sometimes you expect it to stop/slow and you will make bottle grenades.

This is why a beginning cider maker should find a good, established, accepted recipe and process, and start there. There are exceptions to every rule but generally campden is used on fresh must to kill off the beasties. It is allowed to "gas off" for about 24 hours or so, then a viable colony of good yeast is added. In theory the campden slows these down too but you've pitched enough that they will be fine. Since you started with pasteurized cider you are in theory fine. Of course you added other stuff so a 24-hour treatment may have been warranted. The point is you missed that window so you go past it, looking forward, and see what happens.

Successive rackings (or every other, or some other schedule) are when winemakers add more to help protect the wine. I'd not worry about this - if your process is clean you'll be okay, if it's not you are already on your way to something other than cider.

We are also talking about cider here, which is often meant to be enjoyed fresh. We're also talking about a new person and a gallon recipe so it's not going to be around long. Let it go, enjoy the ride, and see what you get. If there's something about it you don't like when you are finished, folks can help you adders those things. My first ciders were gallon jugs I brought back from the farm with fresh cider in them that were "forgotten" for a couple weeks. I didn't know enough to know how badly I mistreated my cider. All I knew is that it was good. I kinda miss those days.
 
I am fermenting my first cider batch, I just bought organic apple juice from Whole foods added Dry Pectic Enzyme and some champagne yeast and 1/2 cup sugar had nice smell like sweet apple pie for about a week now its not doing much, its only 1 gallon so ill leave it a few more weeks then rack to another carboy to age.
Did you see any activity when you added the yeast? Day 3 and still nothing for me
 
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