American Pale Ale - with a twist

Well, I initially was shooting for ESB, but since I am having issues getting english yeast and appropriate hops, I am changing gears and have modified my recipe, to be an experimental American Style Pale Ale, except that I plan on using WLP029 (german ale/kolsch) yeast and giving the brew a short lagering period after fermentation, I may or may not give it a cascade dry hop during this period.

According to white labs, WLP029 accentuates hop flavor like WLP001, so I am hoping that this will be a good marriage, it should surely be drinkable. My final grain bill and hop schedule is below.

10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 86.88 %
1.13 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 9.82 %
0.38 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.30 %
0.50 oz Chinook [11.50 %] (60 min) Hops 18.3 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [4.80 %] (20 min) Hops 4.6 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.3 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [4.80 %] (10 min) Hops 2.8 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [4.80 %] (5 min) Hops 1.5 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (1 min) Hops 0.7 IBU

I was thinking of mashing at 152, primary ferment for 3 weeks at 62, and a two week lagering or cold aging secondary.

Opinions and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

That looks great to me. I like the Cascade/Willamette combo. And the Kolsch yeast does make a great pale ale, if Biermuncher's Fire Rock Pale Ale clone is any indication.

greenbirds said:

That looks great to me. I like the Cascade/Willamette combo. And the Kolsch yeast does make a great pale ale, if Biermuncher's Fire Rock Pale Ale clone is any indication.

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I am glad another set of eyes, thinks it looks good. I am just so sick of always using neutral yeast like US-05, Pacman and Nottingham. I figured it was time to experiment with some different, possible more flavorfull, yeast strains. From what I understand WLP029, is fairly neutral but if it does throw esters they will me somewhat fruity, I figure the cascade citrus flavor/aroma would be a good combo with that.

THe only thing I am really worried about is that the WLP-029 is supposedly less attenuative than US-05 WLP001........however I have had it take a 1.052 kolsch down to 1.010...but that was with a 149 mash temp.

I use wlp029 as my house yeast. Love it with pale ales too!!! Expect about 73 percent attenuation if you mash at 152...That's what I get.

Sounds like a tasty idea and it got me thinking, I've got some harvested Kolsch yeast in the beer fridge and might give it a try. The yeast I have is Wyeast 2565 Kolsch. Strange thing is I checked out the yeast comparison chart and find that it's not listed as a match with WLP029.

Are there any characteristics that you were looking for in WLP029 that 2565 might not have? Or the opposite, would 2565 add something undesirable?

I've done a couple of Kolsch's with 2565 fermented in the low 60 and been very pleased with the results. There was a slight apple aroma, but it didn't follow though to the flavor of finish.

AnOldUR said:

Sounds like a tasty idea and it got me thinking, I've got some harvested Kolsch yeast in the beer fridge and might give it a try. The yeast I have is Wyeast 2526 Kolsch. Strange thing is I checked out the yeast comparison chart and find that it's not listed as a match with WLP029.

Are there any characteristics that you were looking for in WLP029 that 2565 might not have? Or the opposite, would 2565 add something undesirable?

I've done a couple of Kolsch's with 2565 fermented in the low 60 and been very pleased with the results. There was a slight apple aroma, but it didn't follow though to the flavor of finish.

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For some reason I just gravitate towards white labs over wyeast, that is the only reason I chose WLP029 over the Wyeast offering.


The more I keep getting positive input on this idea, the more excited I get about this brew. I am going to try and coax 6.5 gallons of 1.050 OG pale ale out of this grain, and I have a 1 gallon WLP029 starter in the works...I am a fan of 1 gallon starters..it really makes for a nice healthy fermentation.

I have found this yeast to make a very "German" flavored kolsch when matched with german pilsen malt and hops, I think the yeast just adds a little floral/fruity boquet/nose to the beer, and lets the malt and hops show through, but still adds more charachter than a US-05 style yeast.

I think attenuation can be manipulated by raising temps towards the end of fermentation.

I suppose I will mash at 152 just so I don't suck the body out of the beer too much!

This sounds quite tasty, I love the kolsch yeast (only ever used Wyeast, but I'm sure they're similar).

If you decide to dry hop, I would recommend waiting til near the end of the lagering period. In my experience, kolsch needs at least 2 weeks in cold temps to mellow out a bit. The reason I would dryhop at the end is because dryhopping fades so quickly. I know some say dryhopping cold isn't as effective, but it still tastes fine.

I wonder if we may be doing WLP029 and similar German Ale yeast strains an injustice by using them strictly for Kolsch and Altbier type of applications. I am actually wondering if WLP029 might make a great imperial stout, I would wonder about the alcohol tolerance, but I think the fruity esters might really work well....or it could fail miserably.

I read somewhere that WLP029 and 2565 are not the same strain. From what I understand the WLP029 flocculates better, while 2565 can ferment well at lower temps (White Labs recommends not going below 62 F)

Basic Brewing Radio recently did a pale ale test with about 6 different strains of yeast, including some like the Kolsch strain that you don't normally associates with pales. The results were surprising. I think the Kolsch one turned out great.

greenbirds said:

I read somewhere that WLP029 and 2565 are not the same strain. From what I understand the WLP029 flocculates better, while 2565 can ferment well at lower temps (White Labs recommends not going below 62 F)

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White Labs doesn't reccomend it, but during their testing they actually got better attenuation with the strain at 55 degrees than at 68.

"
Fermentation temperature: 55° F and 68° F
Attenuation: At 55° F, 79%; at 68° F, 78%
Hours to get to 50 percent attenuation: At 55° F, 48 hours; at 68° F, 30 hours
"


http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp029.html


I have no doubt that WLP029 will produce an outstanding pale ale.

That's true and is interesting. Should note, however, that diacetyl shot up into the threshold range (Which is somewhere between 50 and 80 ppb), from 36 to 63 ppb.

Anyhoo I doubt you're fermenting this at 55 F. Let us know how it turns out.

I brewed this up yeasterday

10 pounds german pale malt
1.125 pounds caramunich
.375# carapils

.50 oz chinook at 60
.50 oz chinook at 15
1.00 oz cascade at 10
1.00 oz cascade at 5
1.00 oz cascade at 2
1.00 oz cascade at 1

cooled to 75 degrees and pitched slurry from 1.25 litre WLP029 starter

OG = 1.055

Lag time was less than two hours and I have an extremely healthy fermentation that needed a blowoff tube than 12 hours later. The fermentation is rocking along in my basement at 66 degrees.


If this pale ale turns out awesome, I may very make WLP029 my house ale strain......only time will tell. I know it tends highlight malt and hop flavors, so I think I may try it in a german style ESB......ESB backbone, Tettnang and Spalter Hops...WLP029......Probably just be an altbier

Just an update, after 5 days at 65 degrees I still have full krausen and the fermentation is just chugging away at a nice even keel. I think I am going to give this one 4 weeks in primary at 60 ambient and then go straight to the bottle with it. Lot's of late cascade additions, this brew should be a good one!

After a week, I still have krausen and it is just going slowly but surely at 65 degrees. This is going to be a clean ferment! Now here is a question to ponder:


is a dry hop in order?

I wouldn't....Just try it straight and then you can adjust next time you brew it if you want more aroma punch. POW POW

daveooph131 said:

I wouldn't....Just try it straight and then you can adjust next time you brew it if you want more aroma punch. POW POW

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My thinking is that the 3 oz of cascade in the last ten minutes and the super fast cooling down (less than ten minutes) to pitching temp of the wort should really help me with a great hop aroma. The pound of caramunich combined with a slightly higher (153) mash temp should help give a nice malty, bready, sweet prescence as well. I have high hopes for this.

Here is something interesting comparting two yeast strains.

1.055 APA pitched with 1/2 gallon WLP029 starter still has full krausen after a week

1.075 IPA pitched with 2 packets of nottingham was finished (1.015) in less then 3 days...both at about 65 degrees at same ambient temp!

Just another update on this. It is day 14 of the fermentation at 64-65 degrees. I still have krausen and visible signs of fermentation, but some of the yeast is starting to fall from suspension. This is going to be a very clean beer and now that the yeast are dropping it is revealing a very red/amber colored beer. I want to take a gigantic straw, insert into carboy, and drink it!

I will keep everybody updated, but I am assuming we are going to see some great attenuation figures on this one as well.

This sounds awesome - I'm all for experimentation in mixing styles of beers. Maybe you should throw 2.5 gallons into a smaller secondary carboy and dry hop half of it to experiment a bit?

Let us know how it turns out!

throwbookatface said:

This sounds awesome - I'm all for experimentation in mixing styles of beers. Maybe you should throw 2.5 gallons into a smaller secondary carboy and dry hop half of it to experiment a bit?

Let us know how it turns out!

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I will sure know how it works out, I have a feeling that the super clean fermentation and the 3 oz of cascade in the last 10 minutes will result in a very citrusy aroma and hop flavor on top of the bready/caramely caramunich! Gonna be awesome! I am really considering dry hopping the entire thing.

After a five week primary fermentation and 1 week carbonating in the bottle I cracked on of these today. Wow, totally not what I was expecting. Super head retention, crystal clear copper color, light citrus aroma but a major "german" aroma from the WLP029. The hops are very subdued, and you have to concentrate to find them. This is a very dry beer, but has enought malt/caramel backbone to just make you want to drink more. Very well balanced, but just a little on the bitter side of the coin. It just has this flavor that you can't get from American yeast...the WLP029 just gives it that distinctive "green bottlish" taste.

If I was to describe how this beer tastes in terms of style...it would be a hybrid.

American Altbier

Easily a rebrew beer....but next time I think I would dry hop with cascade or centennial...and I would sub magnum for the chinook bittering....

I think this yeast strain is a gem, and my brewing experience indicates that it could easily be subbed for lager yeast with VERY impressive results. I think some "Permtoberfest" may be in order. It attenuates, it's clean and if you give it time, if flocs clear.