WLP644 -Brett B Trois

Wow, I can't believe this is the first time I've come across this thread! I have been researching all-brett fermentations for a while and finally took the plunge today. I've listened to the BN show with CY, reviewed his slide show, listened to every BN show with wild/lambic/sour brewers, and reviewed CY's Brett Project website (i can understand a little bit of it). Here's what I have:

Starter 1: moderately aerated, 2L starter with 2 vials of WLP 644
Starter 2: moderately aerated, 2L starter with 1 vial of each of WLP 650 and WLP 653 (i wanted two vials of 650, but the LHBS was out)

I was aiming for a lager-like starter size, hence the 2 vials and the 2L, using the yeast calc website, these starters are expected to get me in between the lager and ale pitch rates. But, it looks like the research is showing extraordinary doublings. If I had seen this thread before building my starters, I probably would have used 1 vial each, but oh well. Either way, it will be interesting to see what these pitch rates result in.

I'm brewing an american pale-type (10g batch with 12# maris otter, 6.5#wheat malt, 2# rye malt, 12oz cpils, and 8oz munich, hopped to about 20 ibu with chinook & citra. it will be hoppy, but not as hoppy as my normal pale) beer a week from tomorrow and I will try to remember to return with results. (This is a fantastic post and an amazingly fascinating experiment!)

Quaker said:

After racking my first batch onto fruit in secondary, I refilled my vial with yeast for future use. I also set aside the remaining slurry, and immediately brewed a porter that same day...

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This morning I decided to draw a sample of my 100% Brett Trois porter brewed 7/15. After only 3 days, I had racked it to a keg. The first week, I vented it every day or two. Then I forgot about it. Today I vented it about 5 or 6 times, each time stopping as foam and beer would start to spray out. Finally decided to just tap it and let the natural carbonation serve it. Filled a wheat beer glass 3/4 full. A lot of pressure in that keg still.

SG = 3.5P from an OG of 12.9P (go ahead and chastise me now for using a refractometer).

Appearance is opaque, dark brown, with cream/tan colored head which lasted despite stirring in attempt to get a foam free gravity reading sample, clinging to sides of glass. Aroma is a bit sour, with dark fruit - prunes or raisons, smells like a sour brown ale, maybe a hint of chocolate aroma. Taste is dark fruit and little coffee, bitterness only as a lingering notion (34 IBU), silky, coating mouthfeel, a minor tart or sourness which with the fruit gives impressions of cherries, no astringency at all. I would not call it a sour beer, but the touch of it which works perfectly. This recipe was a complete hodge podge of leftover malts/grains (9 plus a pils base to be precise), so I'd never plan to exactly re-brew it. However, based on this I'd recommend doing an all bret porter or stout or dubbel. This actually tastes more like a dubbel to me than a porter. Just creating a Wyeast Brett L starter today for a 100% fermentation next weekend. Was going to make a light blond for future blending, but thinking of changing course now.

Quaker said:

After racking my first batch onto fruit in secondary, I refilled my vial with yeast for future use. I also set aside the remaining slurry, and immediately brewed a porter that same day.

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Regarding storage techniques, I seem to recall Chad mentioning that he has had better results with brett stored at room temperature as opposed to refrigeration. Did anyone else get this impression?

I'm interested in this because I sometimes stash yeast slurry in a mason jar if I'm going to use it in the near future. CY implies that storing this slurry at room temperature would be better for the long term viability of the yeast.

Quaker said:

This morning I decided to draw a sample of my 100% Brett Trois porter brewed 7/15. After only 3 days, I had racked it to a keg. The first week, I vented it every day or two. Then I forgot about it. Today I vented it about 5 or 6 times, each time stopping as foam and beer would start to spray out.

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Another point I recall from CY's BN interview was that he is seeing brett becoming active again when pressure is applied. I find Quaker's results very interesting - 3 day ferment, then pressurized aging... I wonder if the porter would have dried out further if it weren't subject to the pressure.

Now that I've brewed 2 all Brett batches, headed for my third, I need to re-listen to that interview with CY. His comments about dark malts and Brett were why I went for the second batch, but I don't recall the pressure fermentation discussion. I definitely need to sample my other soon which was a blond on mangoes and apricots with lacto in secondary.

About 16 hours in, the trois starter is crazy active. Bubbling like gangbusters and generating a small white krausen. The Brett brux/lambicus (I've heard they are actually the same species?) starter is not showing any signs of life. Maybe the b/l starter will take the 7 to 10 days that has been thrown around for "normal" Brett starters (?), whereas the trois starter will behave more like a sacch.



This is fun!

My trois starter grew exactly like a sacch starter. Therefore I decided to just pitch it at typical ale rate. The mash was a ***** for me with the rye and oats in there. I had to run off rather slow.

I also have a Wyeast Brett L on the stir plate now about 18 hours in. Not much happening in sharp contrast to my previous 644 starter which took off like a Belgian or Hefe strain.

About 20 hours in, the brux/lambicus starter has kicked up. The trois starter is still going nuts.



Looks like they will both be ready to pitch next weekend. In the future, I guess I'll just do a 24 to 48 hour starter with trois.

Kegged and dryhopped my 100% trois batch saturday night and harvested the slurry.

Brewed 10gal of 1.052 saison yesterday ~30 IBUs.

5gal pitched with 90ml of trois slurry and a smack pack of 3726 with no starter.
I went with roughly the estimate that mr.malty gave for a repitch of sacch slurry to pitch my brett.

Other 5 gal pitched with a 1.6L starter of WLP585 saison III. Will be bottling this with brett trois dosed bottles, and possibly some other brett strains to see the difference.

10 hours after pitching they both have a pretty vigorous fermentation going.

berebrando - I also agree with Chad Y's storage of Brett. I have noticed similar results that my tubes of Brett Slurry seem to have a much better viability when stored at room temperature. I was trying to think of why this happens and I guess it makes sense. Brett is just able to use a greater range of compounds for its carbon food source. Hence, why these beers continue to change over time because the Brett is still metabolizing different flavor compounds.

Almighty said:

mhenry41h - It is a very slow flocculator. I would suggest cold crashing and using gelatin (or you favorite fining agent). I racked me beer from carboy to dry-hop keg to serving keg with gelatin and cold crashing and then it finally got pretty clear after about a week in the keg.

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I'm at 3 weeks and 2 days today and it's finally clearing. I think I'm going to let this sit for 6 weeks in hopes that the sacc/brett blend will give me just a kiss of funk. I'm finding that this strain is pretty "tame" in that it's more prone to fruity flavors than funk. I'm down to 1.006 (8.6% ABV) and its fruity with a nice kiss of spice right now. If it can develop just a touch of funk, this beer will be remarkably good.

Coff said:

Well your beer sounds similar to mine, 1.045 Saison base Pils Munich and Wheat mashed at 148-49. Im thinking about hitting it with some Maltodextrin, just a very little bit to add body/ complex sugars for the brett to work on. The problem with that is Im worried I'll have to wait longer to bottle, and maybe Im better off leaving it alone.

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Took a reading last night at at 23 days primary, its at 1.010 and still quite cloudy. Stone fruit aromas as others have been noticing with just a hint of spice on the back of the tongue, no noticeable funk however. Like others have said, if this beer develops a touch of funk it could be great. As of now it is quite good and I think will develop in the bottle well over time.

The other half of this wort got WLP 565 Saison I and is bone dry, 1.003, so I think the trois still has some to go yet albeit I ramped the Saison I to 82 over a week so I might be drying that beer out significantly more.

I plan to primary the Trois for ~6 weeks in hopes it attenuates a bit more and clears up. I may hit it with gelatin a few days before bottling to help it out. I refilled my vial from my starter so I wont have to wash any of the yeast in the fermenter.

Mine sat in the primary 7.5 weeks before i transferred it to a keg. Only got down to 1.006. I kegged it and put it under 16 psi thinking it may start up again and let it sit for a few days with no noticeable activity. I think its done. Dry hopping it with .5oz of citra and .5oz of nelson sauvin for 36 hrs and bottling. Hoping I didnt overdo the dry hop, but I probably wont be drinking this too quickly.

I cracked open one of my Brett Trois "multigrain farmhouse" ales after just over 2 weeks in the bottle (stored warm - in the 80s) and 24 hrs in the fridge. Turned out spectacularly. Crisp, fruity, not too thin, good carbonation. I really like this yeast. I harvested the slurry from this batch and I think I'm going to try it in a darker, Fall beer. Maybe an english-style brown ale with cranberries - perfect to pair with the thanksgiving turkey!

Has anybody achieved any "funk" from this strain?

Starter update: the trois has started flocc'ing out after 5 days. In comparison, the brux/lambicus blend is still going strong with a nasty (that's a good thing, I think) bubbly krausen.



Again, pitching in to a pale ale this weekend (t minus 3 days).

berebrando said:

Starter update: the trois has started flocc'ing out after 5 days. In comparison, the brux/lambicus blend is still going strong with a nasty (that's a good thing, I think) bubbly krausen.

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It's a good thing.

Tasted my blond on apricots and mangoes. No snazzy tasting notes, as I was a few pints into the night. I had read Old Sock's blog post on his IPA and ran to the basement to snitch a taste of mine. Go figure, it's wonderfully aromatic and tasting of apricots and mangoes. I had dosed it with a bit of lacto on 7/28 which quickly formed a pellicle. It has a brisk tartness which could just as likely be from the apricots at this point. I coincidentally kicked a keg of CYBI Terrapin pale ale tonight, so this one will get racked to the keg tomorrow. The only regret is that SWMBO and friends will like it. I might have to turn another batch around of this. Loving this yeast... especially in a Shanghai summer with no control of ferm temps other than initial pitching temp.

My questions: I'm making a 100% Brett WLP644 Belgian Tripel (O.G. 1.080), which is fermenting at 7 days at 70- 73 °F. I used a big starter culture (pitched at lager ratio). The wort was pitched at 64 °C and, after 12 hours, fermentation take-off, and temperature was adjusted to 70- 73 °F. Since then, I'm getting a strong banana smell from fermenter (very sweet smell, indeed, and very pleasant). However, I did not got any other tropical fruit smell yet (maybe a very faint smell of pears). The banana smell should change with time? Somebody get similar smell with WLP644?
I'm pretending let in primary for 4 weeks....

diegobonatto said:

My questions: I'm making a 100% Brett WLP644 Belgian Tripel (O.G. 1.080), which is fermenting at 7 days at 70- 73 °F. I used a big starter culture (pitched at lager ratio). The wort was pitched at 64 °C and, after 12 hours, fermentation take-off, and temperature was adjusted to 70- 73 °F. Since then, I'm getting a strong banana smell from fermenter (very sweet smell, indeed, and very pleasant). However, I did not got any other tropical fruit smell yet (maybe a very faint smell of pears). The banana smell should change with time? Somebody get similar smell with WLP644?
I'm pretending let in primary for 4 weeks....

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Let that bugger sit. I've yet to learn how to taste a beer at 7 days and know what it will taste like when it's done. I try like hell, but I still haven't figured it out!

Ended up stiring a 1500 starter and brewed up a simple pale ale with nelson sauvin and pacific jade hops split it in 3 batches.
Under pitched one. Split the rest between the other 2 batchs and aerated only one of them

as of 5 hours the largest krausen is on the underpitched batch?!
nice krausen on the normal pitch aerated
pellice forming on the non-aerated

Will report back!!

Here's my Saison-Brett using this strain as a secondary ferment. The Brett character is mild but definitely present. It needs a couple more months in the bottle to get great. The head looks good in the picture but the CO2 hasn't really dissolved in to the liquid yet.

Johnnyhitch1 said:

Under pitched one. Split the rest between the other 2 batchs and aerated only one of them

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Sweet experiment! Please report back with tasting notes!

I gather from this thread that most are fermenting around 70. I have my chamber set at 70 and will report back

Heh Ravenshead, do you mind posting or linking your recipe? I picked up a vial of Brett B Trois this past weekend since my LHBS (high gravity) still had some in stock, and I have been wondering about just what to brew with it.

BenWillcox - I actually prefer this strain as a Primary fermenter rather than in Secondary. I have not gotten the amazing tropical fruit aromas and flavors when used in secondary, it more provided a mild funk character (I find this difficult to describe).

Thats what I have read. I was wanting to use it as a primary in a Saison-style beer. That was why I was asking for Ravenshead's recipe.

Well I am now two days in to fermentation with the trois vs brux/lambicus comparison. I came home from work to find a nice (normal) krausen in the trois half and a pellicle in the brux/lambicus blended half.

Here is a picture at 48 hours from pitching:



The front (closer) is the brux/lambicus fermenter and the back (left) is the trois fermenter. You can see how the trois fermentation compares to the saison fermentations in the background right (wlp568). Also, you can sort of see the bubbly pellicle that formed in the brux/lambicus blend. It is fermenting at 70 right now, and will move to ambient (80 to 85) when I need the fermentation space (at least two weeks from pitching), where it will dry out for at least two more weeks.

BenWilcox - I have also used it in a Saison style wort and not been overly impressed with the flavor profile.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/06/great-saison-experiment-8-strains-part.html

I think this strain really shines when it is used with a good amount of hops and with some crystal malt to add some sweetness to the fruit flavors. Also in my limited experience the more complex sugars in the wort the more complex flavors I got from the yeast. Plus with the high attenuation, the Brett leaves the beer pretty thin since it doesn't produce the glycerol like Saison yeasts to give the impression of more mouthfeel.

Almighty said:

BenWilcox - I have also used it in a Saison style wort and not been overly impressed with the flavor profile.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/06/great-saison-experiment-8-strains-part.html

I think this strain really shines when it is used with a good amount of hops and with some crystal malt to add some sweetness to the fruit flavors. Also in my limited experience the more complex sugars in the wort the more complex flavors I got from the yeast. Plus with the high attenuation, the Brett leaves the beer pretty thin since it doesn't produce the glycerol like Saison yeasts to give the impression of more mouthfeel.

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Maybe my experience has been because of the hopping, but I love my brew with this strain. I used raw wheat, spelt, and quinoa along with pale and pilsner malt. No crystal malts. The beer is super flavorful, fruity and crisp. Mine finished at 1.010, so while thinnish, not overly so. Perhaps the hops I used accentuated the fruitiness, but I have nothing but good things to say about this yeast. I am going to brew up a darker, sweeter beer with it in the coming weeks, so maybe my opinion will change then...but I hope not.

http://www.brewbybrew.com/2012/06/multigrain-100-brett-farmhouse-ale.html

JLem - I think due to your mash schedule you must have produced more complex sugars, which is also apparent with your FG of 1.010. I did a very thick single infusion mash at 148 and my beer with Brett Drie fermented down to 1.000. So I guess the lesson here would be to design your Saison recipe knowing the attenuation capability of this yeast.

I think the flavors from the yeast work well on their own so they would work with a Saison style wort, you just don't need to focus on making the wort too fermentable.

I'm starting to get some Brett-essence now at 4.5 weeks in the Carboy. It doesn't smell quite as "aspirin-y" as traditional Brett B but I can notice it. I'm expecting a soft funk. I'm getting excited.

Coff said:

Took a reading last night at at 23 days primary, its at 1.010 and still quite cloudy. Stone fruit aromas as others have been noticing with just a hint of spice on the back of the tongue, no noticeable funk however. Like others have said, if this beer develops a touch of funk it could be great. As of now it is quite good and I think will develop in the bottle well over time.

The other half of this wort got WLP 565 Saison I and is bone dry, 1.003, so I think the trois still has some to go yet albeit I ramped the Saison I to 82 over a week so I might be drying that beer out significantly more.

I plan to primary the Trois for ~6 weeks in hopes it attenuates a bit more and clears up. I may hit it with gelatin a few days before bottling to help it out. I refilled my vial from my starter so I wont have to wash any of the yeast in the fermenter.

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This beer has dropped clear and looks to be completely finished at 1.010 at ~5 weeks. I tasted it very quickly, was a little more bitter than I remembered, still fruity however, no noticeable brett funk.

I still plan to wait till the 6 week mark to bottle it but thats mostly because I have 10 gallons of sour beer to bottle first. I havent committed to kegging these brett beers just yet.

At 14 days in primary, my wlp 585 half of the wort got down to 1.006 and tastes great. I want to bottle this soon. Half clean, half dosed in the bottle with brett b trois, brett l and maybe some brett c so I can compare the 4 different outcomes. Ill give this a week or so longer to get the brett starters ready by bottling and a 3 day dry hop with styrian goldings.

The 3726/Brett trois half is at 1.012. Didnt expect it to be quite so high, but I suppose that leaves plenty for the brett to keep working with. Definitely some brett character in there already. Fruity, but with a slight peppery phenolic funk from the brett. I pitched the sacch and brett at the same time. One smack pack, and one ~90ml slurry of brett trois.

I brewed the Chad Yakobson farmhouse brett from Zymurgy magazine 14 days ago. The OG was 1.054 and it has dropped to 1.010. So far, it smells and tastes very similar to a traditional saison and has very little brett character. So far, I haven't seen much differentiation in behavior from a traditional Saccharomyces strain (other than it's still active at 14 days). Like most have said, it hasn't cleared out completely but that should happen within the next few weeks.

Ravenshead said:

Here's my Saison-Brett using this strain as a secondary ferment. The Brett character is mild but definitely present. It needs a couple more months in the bottle to get great. The head looks good in the picture but the CO2 hasn't really dissolved in to the liquid yet.

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Hey, Raven! Any chance on sharing the recipe? I love Boulevard's saison-Brett. Is yours similar at all?

bogwart said:

I brewed the Chad Yakobson farmhouse brett from Zymurgy magazine 14 days ago. The OG was 1.054 and it has dropped to 1.010. So far, it smells and tastes very similar to a traditional saison and has very little brett character. So far, I haven't seen much differentiation in behavior from a traditional Saccharomyces strain (other than it's still active at 14 days). Like most have said, it hasn't cleared out completely but that should happen within the next few weeks.

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Please keep us updated! I'm planning on brewing that farmhouse recipe after I brew the Belgian White recipe (preparation for the next BBBB!). I didn't get my hands on the Trois but will brew them both with a combo of Brux and Lamb.

barrooze said:

Please keep us updated! I'm planning on brewing that farmhouse recipe after I brew the Belgian White recipe (preparation for the next BBBB!). I didn't get my hands on the Trois but will brew them both with a combo of Brux and Lamb.

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Defalcos had the Trois in stock when I went there Saturday. E-mail or call them, and they'll hold it for you.

kingwood-kid said:

Defalcos had the Trois in stock when I went there Saturday. E-mail or call them, and they'll hold it for you.

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Thanks for the heads up, Kingwood! I might be up in the area tomorrow. I'll definitely ask for a vial to go in hold for me. A perfect excuse to finally check out the new store.

barrooze said:

Hey, Raven! Any chance on sharing the recipe? I love Boulevard's saison-Brett. Is yours similar at all?

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Sure, Schaez and I brewed it along with another friend. It's a little fruitier than Boulevard's but that may just be because mine finished a little high (1.006). It came out really nice just the same.

58% Pils
20% White Wheat
10% Munich (10 SRM)
4% Aromatic
8% white sugar added just after high Kraizen

For 5.5 gallons:
.71 oz Magnum @ 60
.63 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh @ 10
seeds of paradise (I think we used 4 oz for fifteen gallons because that was all we had)

Wyeast 1214 Belgian Ale

I added the Brett after the first yeast ceased visible activity. I don't think Schaez has added his yet and it's been months. I bet his is drier in the end.

Edit: Sorry to others that I took so long to post the recipe, I hadn't realized there were requests.

Also, I did eventually get a pellicle from this strain but it took a month or so to form. I also dumped some of it into a stuck Triple and wound up with a really sour (in a good way) beer. Completely different flavors than the Saison.

A super fruity and elegant funk is in the aroma today. It will be 6 weeks in the carboy and it's finally hit. The effects of this strain in primary as a 100% fermentation has been nicely documented. I think it's good to note that it's use in a mixed fermentation has been very positive. If you seek a nice and delicate touch of Brett funk, I recommend this approach. My guess is that using it at bottling will take some time to develop. Just my take...