Home improvement salesmen rant

I'll have to admit, I am a bit wet behind the ears when it comes to hiring a contractor to complete home improvement or repair.

I purchased my first house 5 or so years ago and almost always performed all repairs and upgrades myself.

One day, I decided that I was tired of cleaning my gutters out and looked into gutter guards. I priced them out at Lowe's and then for the heck of it, let a couple guys come out and tell me how much they would charge to put on their super premium, never clog, top of the line gutter guards over my existing gutters.

I sat through the sales pitch once again when I had to replace the AC unit in another house. Recently, I had some estimates for a new roof.

There is one thing that they all had in common and that is they all have slimy salesmen that are masters at bending you over and attempting to cram a contract with a huge sticker price straight up your sphincter. I mean these guys make used car salesmen look like saints.

In almost every case, I was able to get the initial bid down 50% or more.

Having experienced this, I can't help but wonder how successful these salesmen are at sticking it to folks everyday. They must get quite a few if they continue the same tactics.

I mean, who really pays the full amount of an initial estimate?

I understand these guys have to make a living life everyone else but damn, give me a break here.

OrdinaryAvgGuy said:

I mean, who really pays the full amount of an initial estimate?

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People do, that is what keeps them doing it this way. Otherwise everyone would pay the 60% or so price and no haggling or salesmen would be involved.

Idk man....I feel you. Any salesman paid commission is like this. Im a plumbing contractor, we're old school...no flat rate. We don't pay our employees commission either- but we hear/see customer experiences from dealings they've had with companies like youre describing.

OrdinaryAvgGuy said:

I mean, who really pays the full amount of an initial estimate?

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Probably a surprising number of people. Bargaining is akin to confrontation for most people.

Truly amazing.

Instead of telling a salesman no and hurting his or her feelings, they would rather pay thousands of (hard earned) dollars more than they have to.

The least impressive, least knowledgeable and least helpful salespeople work by the hour imo ... but then again I am a commission salesman so I might be biased ..

If you don't like to negotiate the price (many do like to) just tell the salesman that right from the start ... if he then gives you a price you aren't willing to pay, walk out and tell the next salesman what happened with the previous one. And in this day and age anyone in the market for a large ticket item/service should already know the going price in their area, before they sit down with a salesman

as a seasoned car salesman I can tell you first hand we are just trying to make a paycheck. usually we have no control over pricing or profit margins. In my experience even honest salesmen get baraded for being shady by cheap customers who have no idea what the product their buying cost to develop nor produce.

When it comes down to it, it's a chicken and egg problem. Customers demand lower prices due to a lack of trust of the salesmen or company, so the company adjusts by boosting their profit margins (increasing price above cost).

We changed our pricing recently to compete with online retailers which meant that profit margins that used to be in the $3k-$5k range are now in the 1k-2k range or less. however most of our customers still expect the large 2-3k discounts after first pencil. What this proves is that most consumers aren't educated and don't do their research on prices. they just assume we're crooks, even though we have the lowest prices in the local market.

What I have found to be true is that if you are an educated consumer and have realistic expectations (know what things cost, do your research), you can walk away with a good deal. but if you are rude and aggressive to the salesman, they'll wont be inclined at all to do you any favors.

OrdinaryAvgGuy said:

Truly amazing.

Instead of telling a salesman no and hurting his or her feelings, they would rather pay thousands of (hard earned) dollars more than they have to.

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That isn't it, they just don't know. I am not saying that this a majority. You can also haggle on mattresses, stereos and TV's, refrigerators, most anything.

If you are at sears or best buy, they will probably look at you like you are crazy, but at a mattress store? Almost NO ONE pays "A full pop" otherwise known as "Sticker Price" when I worked that crappy job.

If a contracting company has a salesman that should tell you something right there,they're bloated and overpriced.Look into hiring a reputable contracter that the owner/project manager/estimator comes down and talks to you face to face.A job like yours is usually estimated on square footage for labor + the cost of material.I havn't done a roof for a while but I think the going rate is $350-$400 a square(10'x10') area.
Good luck!!!

alane1 said:

If a contracting company has a salesman that should tell you something right there,they're bloated and overpriced.Look into hiring a reputable contracter that the owner/project manager/estimator comes down and talks to you face to face.A job like yours is usually estimated on square footage for labor + the cost of material.I havn't done a roof for a while but I think the going rate is $350-$400 a square(10'x10') area.
Good luck!!!

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$350 to $400 a square? Either your a roof salesman or prices are over inflated in Boston. From what I gathered, the going rate here in NC is $175 to $200 per square - stripped, underlay, flashed, 30 year architectural shingles.

techbrewie said:

as a seasoned car salesman I can tell you first hand we are just trying to make a paycheck. usually we have no control over pricing or profit margins. In my experience even honest salesmen get baraded for being shady by cheap customers who have no idea what the product their buying cost to develop nor produce.

a bad salesmen will talk you into buying something but a good salesman will help you find the right product for your needs. That is a salesman's job. You told them you wanted their "super premium" and complain about the super premium price tag?

Also when you haggle the price down, you don't get the cheaper price because the salesman is trying to screw people over. your getting the cheaper price because salesman are cutting into their paycheck just to make the deal happen because some money is better than no money. Put yourself in their shoes. you have to lose money because some customer doesnt want to pay or cant afford the price tag of what something costs.

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I understand these salesmen are trying to make a living, that is okay.

I'm that cheap SOB that strips away all of your commission because I know better.

One of my estimates came in at $9000 for 22 squares.

$1,800 wholesale cost for shingles
$700 per 1 day for 6 migrant workers for 8 hours
$300 flashing / felt paper / nails
$100 fee to dump old shingles

$2,900

This leaves over $6,000 for other operating cost - vehicles fuel and maintenance, insurance, staff wages, advertising, and a number of other costs. How much profit are we talking here? $3k - $4k?

My point being that that huge margin is a result of customers haggling for a lower price. most customers aren't like you and know all of the material costs. the just assume that there is too much margin. so if the business were to value price, they wouldn't make any sales because customers need to "feel" like they are getting a discount.

Smart consumers that know what the costs are know what price to ask. And they are 100% of the time the people that get the best deal. the A-holes i'm referring to are people who arent educated consumers and just assume you're ripping them off. Which obviously is not you

techbrewie said:

My point being that that huge margin is a result of customers haggling for a lower price. most customers arent like you and know all of the material costs. the just assume that there is too much margin. so if the business were to value price, they wouldnt make any sales because customers need to "feel" like they are getting a discount.

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I have to admit, I've never done sales.

So what you are saying is that the prices are over-inflated. Some (like myself) they make very little money off of while others (a surprising number) pay the full bid price. Somewhere in the middle is where they make their profit?

OrdinaryAvgGuy said:

$350 to $400 a square? Either your a roof salesman or prices are over inflated in Boston.

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No, we usually employ only Americans and believe in a fair wage.

OrdinaryAvgGuy said:

I have to admit, I've never done sales.

So what you are saying is that the prices are over-inflated. Some (like myself) they make very little money off of while others (a surprising number) pay the full bid price. Somewhere in the middle is where they make their profit?

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This can vary greatly per business, but yes. When you see ridiculous margins like that it is usually a response to customers expecting huge discounts. A lot of times ignorant consumers end up paying more money if the feel like they got a good deal. It is one way for a business to hold gross in their margins, but not very consistent.

There is a paradigm shift in a lot of these markets right now because of the internet and all of the information available on costs and pricing. Businesses now have a choice of either inflating their margins and giving huge discounts or giving a value best-price on the first pencil of a sales deal. The latter sell in much higher volume and generally hold more gross and make more money consistently across the board.

Within the next decade id say you wont ever have to negotiate because businesses will be forced to value price or die due to the change in consumer psychology and competition with internet pricing. Especially since around 90% of consumers research a major purchase online for 3+ days before even talking to a business.

Think about it, when is the last time you bought anything over 100$ without checking the reviews or similarly priced models online?

alane1 said:

No, we usually employ only Americans and believe in a fair wage.

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Down south a fair wage is determined by the pool of labors and how much they are willing to do the job for.

Juan that hangs out at the Home Depot will do a fine job slapping some shingles on and works for $12 an hour, takes one 10 min lunch break and doesn't complain. He works 7 days a week and always shows up.

John 6 pack wants $40 an hour, even if there is no work and he stays at home. He shows up hung over (if he shows up at all) Monday morning, works half as hard as Juan, demands a 1 hour lunch and two 15 min breaks.

Down here, $12 an hour is the going rate and is the fair wage.

I am a Carpet/Hardwood flooring contracter in the South NJ/Philly area. Its not uncommon for me to go on an estimate and quote someone a price of say $3000 for a project and they are shocked because one of the big box stores (Lowes or HD) or Empire quoted them $10k for the same project with the same material. My advice would be to always check out Angies list for contractors, you will most likely get honest reviews and competetive guys just trying to make a living.

I am a plumbing contractor and I charge a set 60$ an hour for one man on the job and 75$ an hour for two men. New construction we get 350$ per fixture to rough in and finish, not including the fixtures themselves. My dad and I are the business and we don't try to rip people off. I am a firm believer in using "mom and pop" companies so you don't have to deal with the guy that sells the stuff and another person to install it. All that means is another markup. Use your local supply stores when buying new things, NOT LOWES OR HOPE DEPOT, the majority of employees at those places cannot help you pick the best supplies. The people at Ferguson enterprises or other supply houses know what they are talking about and you don't get up charged as much.

techbrewie said:

This can vary greatly per business, but yes. When you see ridiculous margins like that it is usually a response to customers expecting huge discounts. A lot of times ignorant consumers end up paying more money if the feel like they got a good deal. It is one way for a business to hold gross in their margins, but not very consistent.

There is a paradigm shift in a lot of these markets right now because of the internet and all of the information available on costs and pricing. Businesses now have a choice of either inflating their margins and giving huge discounts or giving a value best-price on the first pencil of a sales deal. The latter sell in much higher volume and generally hold more gross and make more money consistently across the board.

Within the next decade id say you wont ever have to negotiate because businesses will be forced to value price or die due to the change in consumer psychology and competition with internet pricing. Especially since around 90% of consumers research a major purchase online for 3+ days before even talking to a business.

Think about it, when is the last time you bought anything over 100$ without checking the reviews or similarly priced models online?

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I agree, the internet enables consumers better access to information that was once not available.

As for researching, I suppose I am a rare consumer. Instead of a $100 threshold, I set mine at around $10.

I recently spent an hour researching price per unit of mach razor cartridges.

Also if I have you an estaminet and you asked for half off I would laugh at you and say good luck with that.

ThaBrewFather06 said:

Also if I have you an estaminet and you asked for half off I would laugh at you and say good luck with that.

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I wouldn't ask for 1/2 off when you are charging $60 an hour for plumbing. This seems like a fair hourly rate for a plumber. A 4 hour job would be $240 - not bad considering you have overhead costs and need to turn a profit.

I will ask for 1/2 off or more when the guy gives me a $9,000 estimate for a 22 square roof that takes a 6 man crew 8 hrs to put on.

OrdinaryAvgGuy said:

Down south a fair wage is determined by the pool of labors and how much they are willing to do the job for.

Juan that hangs out at the Home Depot will do a fine job slapping some shingles on and works for $12 an hour, takes one 10 min lunch break and doesn't complain. He works 7 days a week and always shows up.

Down here, $12 an hour is the going rate and is the fair wage.

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I have a neighbor that went a similar route with an all spanish crew (the owner of course was not) for an addition recently. His house was robbed a few weeks after completion of the project. I have lived in this neighborhood 30yrs and that was the first break in we have ever seen. Look for honest, reasonable, trustworthy outfits, not the guys that hang out at home depot or post on craigslist.

OrdinaryAvgGuy said:

Down south a fair wage is determined by the pool of labors and how much they are willing to do the job for.

Juan that hangs out at the Home Depot will do a fine job slapping some shingles on and works for $12 an hour, takes one 10 min lunch break and doesn't complain. He works 7 days a week and always shows up.

John 6 pack wants $40 an hour, even if there is no work and he stays at home. He shows up hung over (if he shows up at all) Monday morning, works half as hard as Juan, demands a 1 hour lunch and two 15 min breaks.

Down here, $12 an hour is the going rate and is the fair wage.

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I call ******** on that. You get what you pay for. You don't "slap" shingles on a roof and expect them to hold up over time.and wow how stereotypical that statement was. I'm betting Juan doesn't pull a permit for his work and half a$$es 80% of his work. He has know overhead because he has no insurance, license, or training more than what he saw on HGTV. I'm from NC a.k.a. The south and that is the biggest joke I have ever heard. Juan Mateo the job and leave know leaks but what happens 5 years from know and he is no where to be found. Ask yourself if you could live off 12$ an hr? That's less than 25,000 dollars a year. No one with a decent skill set works for that and does manual labor. People like you get taken advantage of because you get a deal of 12$ an hour then have to pa a real contractor double 5 years latter to fix what Juan did.

jprice said:

I have a neighbor that went a similar route with an all spanish crew (the owner of course was not) for an addition recently. His house was robbed a few weeks after completion of the project. I have lived in this neighborhood 30yrs and that was the first break in we have ever seen. Look for honest, reasonable, trustworthy outfits, not the guys that hang out at home depot or post on craigslist.

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Okay, there was one bad apple. There are a lot more sleazy laborers in the construction that are non Hispanic.

I had granite counter tops put in a couple years ago. 4 Mexicans showed up, worked like hell never came back to rob me. When they left I said te gusta cerveza? using the little bit of Spanish I know. I gave them a case of beer and they walked away smiling.

As you can probably tell, I favor migrant workers because they represent the values and work ethic that use to be present in this country. Now we are all entitled. Most of these guys work hard, long hours for very little and never complain.

ThaBrewFather06 said:

I call ******** on that. You get what you pay for. You don't "slap" shingles on a roof and expect them to hold up over time.and wow how stereotypical that statement was. I'm betting Juan doesn't pull a permit for his work and half a$$es 80% of his work. He has know overhead because he has no insurance, license, or training more than what he saw on HGTV. I'm from NC a.k.a. The south and that is the biggest joke I have ever heard. Juan Mateo the job and leave know leaks but what happens 5 years from know and he is no where to be found. Ask yourself if you could live off 12$ an hr? That's less than 25,000 dollars a year. No one with a decent skill set works for that and does manual labor. People like you get taken advantage of because you get a deal of 12$ an hour then have to pa a real contractor double 5 years latter to fix what Juan did.

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I'm not trying to be a dic* but I get super frustrated when people want an easy cheap person and they don't give the work to the people who do the job the right way by getting a pm it inspection and have insurance. Sorry to be so negative.

ThaBrewFather06 said:

I call ******** on that. You get what you pay for. You don't "slap" shingles on a roof and expect them to hold up over time.and wow how stereotypical that statement was. I'm betting Juan doesn't pull a permit for his work and half a$$es 80% of his work. He has know overhead because he has no insurance, license, or training more than what he saw on HGTV. I'm from NC a.k.a. The south and that is the biggest joke I have ever heard. Juan Mateo the job and leave know leaks but what happens 5 years from know and he is no where to be found. Ask yourself if you could live off 12$ an hr? That's less than 25,000 dollars a year. No one with a decent skill set works for that and does manual labor. People like you get taken advantage of because you get a deal of 12$ an hour then have to pa a real contractor double 5 years latter to fix what Juan did.

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I'm not trying to take any sides here, but say you pay WHOEVER $30/hr instead of $12/hr. Is $30 also an unreasonable wage? Then the $700 in his estimate goes to $1500 or so, to pay 6 workers for 8 hours of labor.

So, the $2900 in materials in labor increases to $3600, still leaving well over $5k to cover overhead and eek out a monstrous profit on a $9k quote.

Besides the $12/hr labor, what part of his estimate is wrong that could cause such a huge discrepancy?

Apparently I'm in the wrong business if I can be making $4k profit per day fixing roofs.

ThaBrewFather06 said:

I call ******** on that. You get what you pay for. You don't "slap" shingles on a roof and expect them to hold up over time.and wow how stereotypical that statement was. I'm betting Juan doesn't pull a permit for his work and half a$$es 80% of his work. He has know overhead because he has no insurance, license, or training more than what he saw on HGTV. I'm from NC a.k.a. The south and that is the biggest joke I have ever heard. Juan Mateo the job and leave know leaks but what happens 5 years from know and he is no where to be found. Ask yourself if you could live off 12$ an hr? That's less than 25,000 dollars a year. No one with a decent skill set works for that and does manual labor. People like you get taken advantage of because you get a deal of 12$ an hour then have to pa a real contractor double 5 years latter to fix what Juan did.

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Yes, there is such thing as skilled labor but does it really take a roofing PHD to lay shingle?

BTW, where do these roofing companies that employ american workers exist in the south? Every time I see a crew, no matter the company, they are are not speaking English.

Okay, there was one bad apple. There are a lot more sleazy laborers in the construction that are non Hispanic.

I had granite counter tops put in a couple years ago. 4 Mexicans showed up, worked like hell never came back to rob me. When they left I said te gusta cerveza? using the little bit of Spanish I know. I gave them a case of beer and they walked away smiling.

As you can probably tell, I favor migrant workers because they represent the values and work ethic that use to be present in this country. Now we are all entitled. Most of these guys work hard, long hours for very little and never complain.[/QUOTE]

This is the non licensed workers that take regular American jobs away from Americans. I know there are white people who will screw you out there and I'm not against Hispanic workers but I feel it's not fair that I have to pay 400-500$ per year to keep my plumbing license and classes to learn cutting edge techniques and pay 10000$ to have insurance to cover me if I forget to glue a sewer fitting and your basement gets destroyed. There are good Hispanic crews out there and there are bad ones, same as white or black guys, I just feel if you hire someone not legal to do the work (no license, not illegal immigrants) you help to run the little guys like me out of business.

weirdboy said:

I'm not trying to take any sides here, but say you pay WHOEVER $30/hr instead of $12/hr. Is $30 also an unreasonable wage? Then the $700 in his estimate goes to $1500 or so, to pay 6 workers for 8 hours of labor.

So, the $2900 in materials in labor increases to $3600, still leaving well over $5k to cover overhead and eek out a monstrous profit on a $9k quote.

Besides the $12/hr labor, what part of his estimate is wrong that could cause such a huge discrepancy?

Apparently I'm in the wrong business if I can be making $4k profit per day fixing roofs.

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Well, as techbrewie mentioned, this huge profit is built in to close the gap between the cheap well informed folks like myself and those willing to pay full price.

OrdinaryAvgGuy said:

Okay, there was one bad apple. There are a lot more sleazy laborers in the construction that are non Hispanic.

I had granite counter tops put in a couple years ago. 4 Mexicans showed up, worked like hell never came back to rob me. When they left I said te gusta cerveza? using the little bit of Spanish I know. I gave them a case of beer and they walked away smiling.

As you can probably tell, I favor migrant workers because they represent the values and work ethic that use to be present in this country. Now we are all entitled. Most of these guys work hard, long hours for very little and never complain.

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That work ethic is still alive and well in this country. Immigrant workers are exploited as modern day slaves working for pennies on the dollar to Americans because they pack 10 of them in a 1 bedroom apartment and take their wages back to their country. Hiring a $12 an hour Juan Valdez is akin to Nike outsourcing their labor on sneakers to a sweat shop in China, it is part of what is ruining this country.

Yes, there is such thing as skilled labor but does it really take a roofing PHD to lay shingle?

BTW, where do these roofing companies that employ american workers exist in the south? Every time I see a crew, no matter the company, they are are not speaking English.[/QUOTE]

Haha good point I was talking more about my line of work than roofing really, but didn't make that clear. This has been a good discussion tonight. I don't really know roofing that well but I wouldn't want a non contractor to at least supervise my roof being put on.

ThaBrewFather06 said:

Yes, there is such thing as skilled labor but does it really take a roofing PHD to lay shingle?

BTW, where do these roofing companies that employ american workers exist in the south? Every time I see a crew, no matter the company, they are are not speaking English.

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Haha good point I was talking more about my line of work than roofing really, but didn't make that clear. This has been a good discussion tonight. I don't really know roofing that well but I wouldn't want a non contractor to at least supervise my roof being put on.[/QUOTE]

Like I was saying, $60 an hour for a plumber.. ok fair enough.

$9 k for a one day, 6 man job with at least 3 k profit built into this number? Just disgust me to think that some people are dumb enough to pay so much.

I asked the salesman how many roofs they do a week. He told me he runs 3 crews of 6 and they do on average 15 roof jobs a week. Do that math.

Perhaps I should get in the roofing business..

ThaBrewFather06 said:

Yes, there is such thing as skilled labor but does it really take a roofing PHD to lay shingle?

BTW, where do these roofing companies that employ american workers exist in the south? Every time I see a crew, no matter the company, they are are not speaking English.

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Haha good point I was talking more about my line of work than roofing really, but didn't make that clear. This has been a good discussion tonight. I don't really know roofing that well but I wouldn't want a non contractor to at least supervise my roof being put on.[/QUOTE]

All it takes is one supervisor who knows what he is doing to direct these guys who are working so that they know and understand how to properly do the job.

If a job is done improperly by hispanic labor, it is almost always the supervisors fault because while the labors are working, doing what they think is right he is in the truck eating a Bojangles biscuit talking to his wife on the phone.

OrdinaryAvgGuy said:

As you can probably tell, I favor migrant workers because they represent the values and work ethic that use to be present in this country. Now we are all entitled. Most of these guys work hard, long hours for very little and never complain.

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So, you do SEO/Web Marketing work spending long hours with few breaks on client websites for a low wage without complaint right?

jprice said:

That work ethic is still alive and well in this country. Immigrant workers are exploited as modern day slaves working for pennies on the dollar to Americans because they pack 10 of them in a 1 bedroom apartment and take their wages back to their country. Hiring a $12 an hour Juan Valdez is akin to Nike outsourcing their labor on sneakers to a sweat shop in China, it is part of what is ruining this country.

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In America the free market determines what a job is worth, not what someone "thinks" its worth.

Immigrant workers are in no way slaves are you kidding? Never heard of a slave that willing-fully illegally crosses the border to work for slave wages.

What many don't see is that the US is evolving. A greater percentage work in this country is shifting towards the service industry, leaving the grunt work for less fortunate people who see it as a good paying job.

If you want to point the finger at someone, point it at the labor unions. They are the reason why american manufacturing companies have a choice to go bankrupt of go overseas.

Its a global economy and manual labor is no longer considered a good job paying job.

Jukas said:

So, you do SEO/Web Marketing work spending long hours with few breaks on client websites for a low wage without complaint right?

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Part of your statement is correct. No, I don't complain because I have no one to complain to. If my job sucks its my own fault because I created it.

I work long hours by choice because I enjoy being productive and enjoy making money.

As for low wages, I keep a roof over my head and enjoy an occasional PB&J sandwich.

Understood but Juan making 12$ an hour doesn't have a supervisor or he would charge more.

I have a general handy man, damn near on speed dial, that takes care of all my houses/rental property. He comes running when I call, and I pay him a flat rate per day. I pay for supplies.
He's worth every penny, but I'll never tell him that.

Also to me if you get charged 9000 dollars and it takes the crew one day the same crew could just mess around and make it take 3 days and you would feel as bad, but because they are good at what they do you want to punish them if you get a good they they work like clockwork. 3000$ profit is not that bad to me working in the hot sun with the danger of falling and salaries to pay. Each of those 6 guys make at least 15$ per hour which is around 600$ per day n labor plus you have gas cost for your trucks, insurance of around 25$ per day on big companies, and permit fees, etc... So the company probably is clearing around 1500$ in my opinion that's a reasonable profit for re roofing a house. The owner probably has a salary of 80k a year

Man, this is what kills me. Literally and figuratively. So u think they have general liability insurance, workers comp, and benefits. For 4@(63 sake, u think they pay taxes on those earnings, social security, Corp tax?

Yea you got Them on the price, awesome walmart should start selling roofs. so I have to compete with this? You been on a roof in the south? It sux. Extrapolate that forty years and guess what, theyre broke, financially and physically.

I know it's expensive but that's the way it goes. Roof it yourself if you want to save money. Do u or don't u support your community?