first starter, does this sound about right?

Toward the end of the week Id like to brew Yooper's Cali Common with wyeast 2112 smack pack, manufacture date 9th August. Because of the older package date Im getting some really large starters calculated.

Im figuring to do a two step starter; 2L at 1.040 cool and decant, then 2L again and pitch.

Sound about right? Ive used dry yeast up till now so Id like a bit of confirmation that Im getting this right.

THanks
Mike

Well with your second step only being 2l again you went get much more cell growth you would be better served upping from the 2l to 4l or so to get more cells.

Well, I kind of already have a 2L vessel I picked up for making starters and I don't really want to find fridge space for decanting 4L. Though I get the point of stepping bigger to keep growth rates high.

Now that I think about it if the container is 2L I should probably cut it back to 1.8 and leave a bit of headspace for krausen eh?

It looks like both YeastCalc and Mr. Malty use the same viability by date calculation of 0.7% per day for vials. IME these are conservative estimates. If the yeast has been in the fridge the whole time you are likely closer to 40-50% viability.

However, because viability is unknown a multi stage starter is a more accurate way to produce the yeast cells you need because each stage is less dependant on the initial pitch.

The viability overtime drops like Felix Baumgartner! Wild! Anyway, I think Ill roll with 2 stage 1.8 L starters, even if I have at least 30% viability that will give me the cells I need. I really dig the options with yeastcalc to give more than one stage on your starter.

hmmm...not looking so good, it's been 24 hours and I haven't seen a thing, the yeast just settle to the bottom and then I shake em up again. I confirmed with a hydrometer that Im still at 1.040.

Give it a few more days before I toss it? Supposing the yeast is dead could I use the wort for a different starter by decanting it off? And if it springs to life should I presume pretty awful viability and up my starter size to compensate?

Thanks and Cheers!

Bummer it's not starting. I've had that happen trying to get something from the dregs of a commercial beer. It's disappointing.

Both your ideas sound like good ones. If the yeast is dead there is no harm in pitching the next yeast right on top of it. The dead yeast cells will be nutrition for the new year cells. You could even boil it to make sure any bacteria that may have been with the yeast is dead.

It is a bummer, here we were talking about getting better than predicted viability and....

So you mean I can just throw the next yeast in on top without bothering to cool/decant, no need to seperate the dead yeast from the new one? It might be important to note the next yeast will be a different one, London ESB, I only bought the one cali-common yeast assuming it would take off.

Odin_Brews said:

It is a bummer, here we were talking about getting better than predicted viability and....

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yeah, really sorry about that. :-/ I've seen much higher viability that predicted on my slurries and heard numorus accounts of starting old yeast. I'm not sure when you are planning on brewing, but maybe give it another day or two if you can. You might still be in the lag phase. Sugar doesn't go down until the growth phase.

Chriss White describing the phases:
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/Yeast_Life_Cycle.pdf

I think Ill plan my brew day pending the time frame of having the yeast to do the job rather than forcing the poor little guys into a wort they're not ready for. THanks for all the info and responses, you are quite the yeast enthusiast I see!

Im going to give this starter another 24 - 48 hours to show signs of life. If it does then my second step is going to be larger than previously thought. If it's just done, then Im going to throw in the ESB and hope it had better condtions since packaging.

If I get bored with all that then I can always brew up something in the meantime with a dry yeast, maybe a nice red IPA but with a touch of roasted barley this time around...mmmmm.....gotta love brewing beer! and more importantly a woman who lets you take over enough of the house so you can always have options on a brew day if that starter is taking its sweet time!

Cheers

I usually plan on at least 24 hrs, with a stirplate, with older yeast packs, give it some time to wake up. Just an idea, but whenever I am using an older yeast, I start the starter a week ahead to give me plenty of time to step up, when you step up the second time, it will take off like mad!

Looks it like it sprang to life last night! Time to make my next recipe for this weekend as this yeast won't be ready for some time. THanks all for the comments

That's great news! Just a little slow out of the gates.

I haven't used to many liquid yeasts, I'm lazy and have mostly stuck with dry yeast. I'm thinking about branching out and try some of the liquid strains soon and I was curious about one thing. about how long does it take for a starter to finish? if I need to do a step up like you are talking about here, is 24 hours enough time and then should I chill and decant? My concern would be sticking the starter in the fridge too soon and not giving the yeast enough time. On the other hand, I'd rather not wait longer than necessary so as not to have to start more than a week before brew day.

Suggestions?

BPal75 said:

I haven't used to many liquid yeasts, I'm lazy and have mostly stuck with dry yeast. I'm thinking about branching out and try some of the liquid strains soon and I was curious about one thing. about how long does it take for a starter to finish? if I need to do a step up like you are talking about here, is 24 hours enough time and then should I chill and decant? My concern would be sticking the starter in the fridge too soon and not giving the yeast enough time. On the other hand, I'd rather not wait longer than necessary so as not to have to start more than a week before brew day.

Suggestions?

Click to expand...

24 for yeast to do their thing, 24 hours in fridge, chill decant, repeat.

For most ales a <= 2L starter no step up is sufficient.

It would seem that 24 hours is the standard, but really the yeast starter is done when it's done. In this case you can see that my yeast was a bit older and took off somewhere between 36 and 48 hours. I think you have to observe and make sure that the yeast are eating/reproducing as they should, and this generally with a healthy fresh yeast packet takes 24 hours (not my experience thus far, Im 0 for 1 on that).

By the way BPal, this one is a step up multi stage starter only because of a)age (low viability) and b) that it's a hybrid beer, meaning more yeast cells needed.

Just a quick question- are you using the ale, lager, or hybrid pitching rates on mr malty? There's a selector that lots of people miss.

hybrid, I guess that's the right option for a cali common with wyeast 2112, I guess anyway.