it still tastes bad

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I’ve brewed 5 different recipes and they all but one has the same kind of bitter, estrigent maybe, I don’ t now what, after taste.
I have the brewing temp to mid 60s and aging at about 70. It taste bad right after fermentation at bottling and aging does nothing to help.
It seemed contamination was most likely, but I really sanitize well, I think, and all 4 are the same and similar to another guy here who also sanitize well.
The only common denominators I can come up with is possibly water, although I used about two gallons of distilled water on one.
I used the same yeast in all, Muton and Fison Ale Yeast. I dry pitch it once the wart is below 80 degrees. I’ve addresses fermenting temp with a swamp cooler, aging temp with a medical supply chiller, water by getting distilled water, sanitizing by going nuts with sanitize, is it the yeast or am I missing something? Still sanitation, water, WHAT, WHAT, HELP!
By the way, its VERY cloudy too.
 
The other option besides green beer is if there are steeping grains that you steeped above 160. The grains generally have grain hulls with them and the grain hulls impart a asstringency/bitterness if steeped above 165. But yes, we need receipes and methods.
 
Oh man, where do I start? This has got to be one of the most frustrating parts of homebrewing.


There are a few things it could be if the flavor your describing is the one I think it is. I had a persistent flavor it took years to figure out. You've already possibly ruled out the obvious ones like temperature and sanitation. But they could both still be influencing the flavor.

First question is are brewing all grain or extract?
Second-What is your sanitizer?
Third- What are you starting gravities (average)
 
Distilled water is the first no no. Yeast needs the minerals and whatnot in drinking/spring water to live. Using distilled deprives them.

What styles have you tried to make?
 
Distilled water is the first no no. Yeast needs the minerals and whatnot in drinking/spring water to live. Using distilled deprives them.

What styles have you tried to make?

I don't agree- distilled water is fine if you need to use it. It's better than tap water loaded with chlorine or chloramine!

There are a couple of things that jump to mind right away.

1. Use different water. Boiled, bottled, etc, but try something different.

2. Don't use that M&F yeast. But a quality dry yeast if you can!

3. Pitch at under 70 degrees, not under 80 degrees. That should also help.

4. Can you give us a typical recipe that has that taste so maybe we can pinpoint the problem?
 
Are these kits- cans of liquid malt extract with added corn sugar? If you are using corn sugar for a large percentage of your wort, or your LME (liquid malt extract) is fairly old, this could account for some off flavors. If I recall, you were getting supplies by mail, right?

I know you're extremely frustrated. If you can, try dry malt extract. It seems to store much better than liquid. Try a better yeast, Safale or Danstar. Try to use mostly malt, not corn sugar or table sugar. Check your hops- if they are stale, they can get really cheesy and produce off flavors.

Can you order online from a site that can keep ingredients cold? It's really hard to diagnose your issues, but I am suspecting that shipping time/temperatures in Saipan have something to do with ingredient quality.
 
If you give this forum a step-by-step walk thru of your brew process, fermentation, bottling and aging... There is a 100% chance they will pinpoint your problem.

Give them a shot.
 
If you are using muntons yeast, then I assume you are also using around 1kg of dextrose right? Try a batch with all Malt Extract and see how it tastes.
 
I don't agree- distilled water is fine if you need to use it. It's better than tap water loaded with chlorine or chloramine!

There are a couple of things that jump to mind right away.

1. Use different water. Boiled, bottled, etc, but try something different.

2. Don't use that M&F yeast. But a quality dry yeast if you can!

3. Pitch at under 70 degrees, not under 80 degrees. That should also help.

4. Can you give us a typical recipe that has that taste so maybe we can pinpoint the problem?

I 've used kits from Midwest Supply; English Pale Ale, Irish red, IPA, ESB.
 
Oh man, where do I start? This has got to be one of the most frustrating parts of homebrewing.


There are a few things it could be if the flavor your describing is the one I think it is. I had a persistent flavor it took years to figure out. You've already possibly ruled out the obvious ones like temperature and sanitation. But they could both still be influencing the flavor.

First question is are brewing all grain or extract?
Second-What is your sanitizer?
Third- What are you starting gravities (average)

I use extract. One step sanatizer, usure as to gravity as I've not measured.
 
The other option besides green beer is if there are steeping grains that you steeped above 160. The grains generally have grain hulls with them and the grain hulls impart a asstringency/bitterness if steeped above 165. But yes, we need receipes and methods.

I've been using kits, but steep at 165 and am very good at keeping it steady at 165. It says steep for 15 to 30 minutes and I go the full 30.
 
Are these kits- cans of liquid malt extract with added corn sugar? If you are using corn sugar for a large percentage of your wort, or your LME (liquid malt extract) is fairly old, this could account for some off flavors. If I recall, you were getting supplies by mail, right?

I know you're extremely frustrated. If you can, try dry malt extract. It seems to store much better than liquid. Try a better yeast, Safale or Danstar. Try to use mostly malt, not corn sugar or table sugar. Check your hops- if they are stale, they can get really cheesy and produce off flavors.

Can you order online from a site that can keep ingredients cold? It's really hard to diagnose your issues, but I am suspecting that shipping time/temperatures in Saipan have something to do with ingredient quality.
I do use LME but no added corn sugar. I keep the hops and dry yeast in the fridge and usully for less than two weeks. The hops smell good, the yeast starts to work within hours of pitching it. I have not re-hydrated the yeast as I've been told its not needed. Yes, I need everything mailed in.
 
Distilled water is the first no no. Yeast needs the minerals and whatnot in drinking/spring water to live. Using distilled deprives them.

What styles have you tried to make?

I've used a combo of 1/2 distilled and half bottled drinking water. I have been wored the botteled drinking water has too much lime and other minerals and possibly a lot of clorine and other things. I'm way out in the pacific on an island.
 
If you give this forum a step-by-step walk thru of your brew process, fermentation, bottling and aging... There is a 100% chance they will pinpoint your problem.

Give them a shot.


As best I can recount.
Sanitize every thing.
Get about 2 gals of bottled water to 165 degrees.
steep grains for 30 min.
Get to boil for 60 min adding hops along the way, right at the beginning, some at end and or middle depending on recipe
Afer 60 min, add some cold water, about a gallon and some ice to get it all to about 90 degrees or so. This water is distilled botteled water. Pour the wort into the fermenter and add more cold water up to 5 gals.
Put the fermenter in a cooler with ice water around it.
Once below 80 degrees stir with a bug paddle to arete the wort sprinkle in the dry yeast on the wort and close it up.
keep the fermenter in the cooler surrounded by water and rotate in a frozen water bottle in the cooler, not the wort, to keep it at about 65 degrees (my first two batches was fermenting at about 80 degrees and the taste in the end was no worse. I thought the problem was temp.)
Two to three weeks later bottle it. Taste some. At bottling it taste the same as after 4 weeks in the bottle.
 
togodoug said:
what is green beer

Green beer means young. I tried my koelsch last week and it wasn't what I was expecting. It had only been 2 weeks in bottles. No head, almost flat and a bitter aftertaste. Just 1 week later, and it's almost carbed completely, has a nice head, and is more balanced. I expect it will be better with age.

Try it again in a week.
 
As best I can recount.
Sanitize every thing.
Get about 2 gals of bottled water to 165 degrees.
steep grains for 30 min.
Get to boil for 60 min adding hops along the way, right at the beginning, some at end and or middle depending on recipe
Afer 60 min, add some cold water, about a gallon and some ice to get it all to about 90 degrees or so. This water is distilled botteled water. Pour the wort into the fermenter and add more cold water up to 5 gals.
Put the fermenter in a cooler with ice water around it.
Once below 80 degrees stir with a bug paddle to arete the wort sprinkle in the dry yeast on the wort and close it up.
keep the fermenter in the cooler surrounded by water and rotate in a frozen water bottle in the cooler, not the wort, to keep it at about 65 degrees (my first two batches was fermenting at about 80 degrees and the taste in the end was no worse. I thought the problem was temp.)
Two to three weeks later bottle it. Taste some. At bottling it taste the same as after 4 weeks in the bottle.

Two Points

Are you adding water directly from a jug or from tap? Was the jug manufacturer sealed before you poured in?

Are you sanitizing everything before you open it and add it to the wort?


You would be shocked what kinds of things are on the top of these jugs and even yeast packets. Those all must be sanitized before being put in the wort. Keep a spray bottle of sanitizer to spray on your water jug lids before opening, yeast packet, stir paddle, lid, airlock, and everything else after boil. You must spray a good bit of sanitizer on them and let it sit for a minute or so. Even the scissors you cut the yeast packet open with need to be sanitized.

If you are doing that stuff then I will be of no help. Good luck.
 
Two Points

Are you adding water directly from a jug or from tap? Was the jug manufacturer sealed before you poured in?

Are you sanitizing everything before you open it and add it to the wort?


You would be shocked what kinds of things are on the top of these jugs and even yeast packets. Those all must be sanitized before being put in the wort. Keep a spray bottle of sanitizer to spray on your water jug lids before opening, yeast packet, stir paddle, lid, airlock, and everything else after boil. You must spray a good bit of sanitizer on them and let it sit for a minute or so. Even the scissors you cut the yeast packet open with need to be sanitized.
If you are doing that stuff then I will be of no help. Good luck.

No, I'm not doing it that well. Are you also a critic of One Step? I will try another sanitizer. Also, if it is bacteria, would the off taste be consistant from batch to batch and recipe to recipe? Thanks.
 
I don't agree- distilled water is fine if you need to use it. It's better than tap water loaded with chlorine or chloramine!

There are a couple of things that jump to mind right away.

1. Use different water. Boiled, bottled, etc, but try something different.

2. Don't use that M&F yeast. But a quality dry yeast if you can!

3. Pitch at under 70 degrees, not under 80 degrees. That should also help.

4. Can you give us a typical recipe that has that taste so maybe we can pinpoint the problem?

I used a kit for IPA, ESB and English Ale
 
No, I'm not doing it that well. Are you also a critic of One Step? I will try another sanitizer. Also, if it is bacteria, would the off taste be consistant from batch to batch and recipe to recipe? Thanks.

Without knowing how the beer tastes I can't say whether it is a problem with bacteria or not. Even then it can be tough to tell on some flavors.

If you are not sanitizing every little thing like the tops of the jugs before dumping in the water or the yeast packet before cutting it open you are leaving yourself susceptible to contamination. It is not difficult to buy a 2 dollar spray bottle and fill it up with the sanitizer you already mixed.

I would also suggest not dumping ice directly in to your fermentor. I know it doesn't seem likely but bacteria can still live in ice.

I am not a one step fan but that is only because I didn't like it when I bought some. There is also the people who argue that one-step is not a sanitizer but only a cleaner. I stopped following that debate long ago so I don't know what is true. I also don't like star-san because chemicals in my water make it pretty worthless. Switched to iodophor and my beers have improved.



You have to get your sanitizing perfect first. I know you tried hard to make it better but it must be PERFECT to rule it out. Get a spray bottle and another type of sanitizer... your going to need more at some time anyway. Do not let anything near the wort that is not sprayed or soaked. After you have done this, come back and report the results. If it doesn't fix your problem at least you can say you now have much less chance of dumping a beer because of contamination.
 
Without knowing how the beer tastes I can't say whether it is a problem with bacteria or not. Even then it can be tough to tell on some flavors.

If you are not sanitizing every little thing like the tops of the jugs before dumping in the water or the yeast packet before cutting it open you are leaving yourself susceptible to contamination. It is not difficult to buy a 2 dollar spray bottle and fill it up with the sanitizer you already mixed.

I would also suggest not dumping ice directly in to your fermentor. I know it doesn't seem likely but bacteria can still live in ice.

I am not a one step fan but that is only because I didn't like it when I bought some. There is also the people who argue that one-step is not a sanitizer but only a cleaner. I stopped following that debate long ago so I don't know what is true. I also don't like star-san because chemicals in my water make it pretty worthless. Switched to iodophor and my beers have improved.



You have to get your sanitizing perfect first. I know you tried hard to make it better but it must be PERFECT to rule it out. Get a spray bottle and another type of sanitizer... your going to need more at some time anyway. Do not let anything near the wort that is not sprayed or soaked. After you have done this, come back and report the results. If it doesn't fix your problem at least you can say you now have much less chance of dumping a beer because of contamination.

Thanks. I don'lt think I can get Star-san here anyway because I don't think you can mail that type of acid. I'll try to find iodophor if I can. Would you suggest things like wearing a surgeon's mask or I guess sanatizing counters where you transfer the wort and all?
 
Thanks. I don'lt think I can get Star-san here anyway because I don't think you can mail that type of acid. I'll try to find iodophor if I can. Would you suggest things like wearing a surgeon's mask or I guess sanatizing counters where you transfer the wort and all?

The surgeon's mask is over the top, IMO, but you do need to sanitize everything that touches the wort after it is boiled.

Can you describe the off taste a little better? You did say astringent, but I'm wondering if you are confusing it with something that is solventy, medicinal or like burnt rubber. Here is a link to some common off flavors and causes:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
 
The surgeon's mask is over the top, IMO, but you do need to sanitize everything that touches the wort after it is boiled.

Can you describe the off taste a little better? You did say astringent, but I'm wondering if you are confusing it with something that is solventy, medicinal or like burnt rubber. Here is a link to some common off flavors and causes:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

It's hard to describe. I'd say bitter but not good hoppy bitter. A guy has said its like bad bananas. He's also said possibly astrigent.
I WANT the problem to be not enough yeast or bad quality yeast, as I feel I've done everything else, but it doens seem my sanitation is not 100%.
 
Sounds like you might be using too much sanitizer and not adequately removing the residue??

Sent from my iPhone using HB Talk
 
I would try a different yeast just to see what happens. Can you get liquid yeast? If not get a good dry yeast, like nottingham, or safale. If that doesnt change anything, change another variable in your brewing. Change one thing at a time, leaving the others the same so you can pinpoint the problem.
Before i started using starsan, i used one step and didnt have any problems, but to add to what binkman said, make sure you are using the proper ratio of sanitizer to water.
Keep trying, and reporting here, and asking questions. We'll get this figured out.:mug:
 
It's hard to describe. I'd say bitter but not good hoppy bitter. A guy has said its like bad bananas. He's also said possibly astrigent.

Correct me if I'm wrong here - but banana-like flavors are typically caused by something going on during fermentation... Different yeasts can and will impact this, but most banana flavors I've heard of have been related to too-warm fermentation temps.

How confident are you that the fermenter is really staying around 65? I'm going to go out on a limb and say the bad bananas flavor probably came from one of the earlier batches; you did mention those fermented around 80, right?

Bottom line, if you're confident that you're keeping the temp consistently around 65, I'd definitely look to something other than muntons yeast - Safale makes a good variety of quality dry yeasts, and none of them have done me wrong yet, while I've heard mixed reviews on Munton's.
 
my first 5 batches had a similar " bitter taste" like what you say. You know it is not from the hops but can pass it off as that to someone who does not know. Is it making the beer undrinkeable or just "off" and "not right" and therefore you want it gone. I changed 3 things in my process and 7 batches after I have not had that taste once.

1. I stopped using my tap water and went to spring water( but you already use this so I doubt that is it).

2. Stopped using just 1step. and added starsan to my brew day.( should be able to get it mine was mailed to me)

3. I learned patience. I used to check gravity and transfer to secondary as soon as the bubbles stopped in airlock. now I w8 2-3 weeks before even checking gravity. I think this was the biggest helper. giving the yeast time to clean up after themselves.(and some would say i need to w8 even longer)
 
Thanks. I don'lt think I can get Star-san here anyway because I don't think you can mail that type of acid. I'll try to find iodophor if I can. Would you suggest things like wearing a surgeon's mask or I guess sanatizing counters where you transfer the wort and all?

You don't need to go that far. Just be conscious about what is touching your wort or getting close to it. For example, your hands. You need to sanitize them because they touch stuff that will touch the wort. Anything that touches the wort or comes close must be sanitized.
 
Do you have 2 threads on the same issue? I thought you said in the other thread that you were using half bottled water and half tap water and ice cubes...

It sounds to me that your sanitation practices are fine. Some people just go overboard with this.

Since all of your beers seem to have the same bad taste, then the problem is likely something that has been consistent in your process, not infection or wild yeasts.

Generally, the best way to troubleshoot an issue is to change one thing in your process at a time. But things like pitching & fermentation temp and sanitation need to be right and consistent throughout.

Here's my suggestions for your next batch:

1. Brew something mildly hopped, like an american pale ale. Use Safale yeast with it instead of the Muntons. As someone else mentioned in one of the threads, kits with DME seem to get better taste reviews than LME.
2. Use all RO or distilled water. The guy who said the opposite is flat out wrong. All the necessary yeast nutrients are already in the extract.
3. Pitch and ferment below 70F.
4. Take gravity reads to determine when to bottle but let it sit in the primary for at least 3 weeks without touching it first.
5. Let it condition in the bottle for at least 4 weeks.

I can't speak to the One Step vs Star-San vs Iodophor question. I use Star San and am happy with it. I keep a spray bottle of it handy to give everthing a once over.

Follow these steps and your beer should improve. If it still tastes bad after that, then we at least have a good basis to work from.
 
Do you have 2 threads on the same issue? I thought you said in the other thread that you were using half bottled water and half tap water and ice cubes...

It sounds to me that your sanitation practices are fine. Some people just go overboard with this.

Since all of your beers seem to have the same bad taste, then the problem is likely something that has been consistent in your process, not infection or wild yeasts.

Generally, the best way to troubleshoot an issue is to change one thing in your process at a time. But things like pitching & fermentation temp and sanitation need to be right and consistent throughout.

Here's my suggestions for your next batch:

1. Brew something mildly hopped, like an american pale ale. Use Safale yeast with it instead of the Muntons. As someone else mentioned in one of the threads, kits with DME seem to get better taste reviews than LME.
2. Use all RO or distilled water. The guy who said the opposite is flat out wrong. All the necessary yeast nutrients are already in the extract.
3. Pitch and ferment below 70F.
4. Take gravity reads to determine when to bottle but let it sit in the primary for at least 3 weeks without touching it first.
5. Let it condition in the bottle for at least 4 weeks.

I can't speak to the One Step vs Star-San vs Iodophor question. I use Star San and am happy with it. I keep a spray bottle of it handy to give everthing a once over.

Follow these steps and your beer should improve. If it still tastes bad after that, then we at least have a good basis to work from.

thanks and yes I had two threads under two different topics. I am Desperate!
I willl go with SAFALE yeast when it arrives. Thoughts on dry pitching or rehydrating it first?
What is OR water?The water I used claims to use sediment filtration, ion exchanger, activated carbon filtration, revers osmosis, ozonation and ultra violate sterilization.
 
my first 5 batches had a similar " bitter taste" like what you say. You know it is not from the hops but can pass it off as that to someone who does not know. Is it making the beer undrinkeable or just "off" and "not right" and therefore you want it gone. I changed 3 things in my process and 7 batches after I have not had that taste once.

1. I stopped using my tap water and went to spring water( but you already use this so I doubt that is it).

2. Stopped using just 1step. and added starsan to my brew day.( should be able to get it mine was mailed to me)

3. I learned patience. I used to check gravity and transfer to secondary as soon as the bubbles stopped in airlock. now I w8 2-3 weeks before even checking gravity. I think this was the biggest helper. giving the yeast time to clean up after themselves.(and some would say i need to w8 even longer)
thanks.As to point 3, I've used one 5 oz pack of Muton, could that betoo little and not good yeast?
 
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