Dark Malty IPA

How does this look?

For: 5.5 gallons

4 lbs Light DME
1 lb Piloncillo
2 lbs American Victory
2 lbs Marris Otter, Pilsner Malt, Etc.
1 lb Dark Munich
.5 lb Honey Malt
.5 lb Midnight Wheat, De-bittered Black Patent, etc.

20M .5 oz nelson sauvin
20M .5 oz galaxy

10M .5 oz nelson
10M .5 oz galaxy

5M .5 oz summit
5M .5 oz chinook
5M .5 oz nelson
5M .5 oz galaxy

Flameout .5 oz summit
Flameout .5 oz chinook
Flameout .5 oz nelson
Flameout .5 oz galaxy

Dry Hop 1 oz each summit, chinook, nelson, galaxy

Basically, I want a big rich malty backbone beneath layers of fruity, tropical, berry, pine and spicy hop aromas. Will this get me in the ballpark? I don't really care about style in this case, of course. Pretty bored with Simcoe, Amarillo, and Citra. Yes, I am aware of the possible onion note from the Summit but I'm willing to chance it for that giant tangerine flavor!

More munich for that malty flavor you want. Is that cara munich or a munich 20?

Not sure, but the LHBS sells Weyermann's Dark Munich Malt, which is around 9 Lovibond I believe that I have used before to good effect. It is not a sweet as caramunich I am thinking. Anyway, I would be cool with that or another malty grain, so long as its not adding too much residual sweetness (that is what the honey malt is for). Additionally, this is about as much grain as I can handle with my BIAB system, so would you recommend swapping out some of the base malt with more munich? The victory should lend a good malty/bready thing too- it is becoming one of my favorite grains.

How about the hop schedule?

How many IBUs are you planning on getting? I don't know if I've seen an IPA recipe without any buttering hops, but I like the idea.
what mash temperature are you planning, and what yeast and fermentation temperature?

Beer Calculus clocks this out around 60 IBU's and I really don't want to go higher than that. I want a lot of attenuation and a highly flocculent yeast strain so probably going with S-05. Planning on mashing low 150-152F, and fermenting around 65F (aprox. 60F ambient at the moment). Predicted OG around 1.069 with an ABV of 6.9%.

This brings up another question that I've been thinking about though. If you derive ALL of your IBU's from late hop additions as in this case, does that change the subjective QUALITY of the bittering (I know it changes the flavor). In other words, is there anything wrong with skipping a 60 minute addition?

I'm curious about that as well. Here's a blog post about early and late hop additions:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/11/how-much-hops-is-enough.html

There might be something about boiling with the hips that drives off some unwanted flavors of the malt, but I can't remember the specifics.

I'm also aware that Chinook has a high cohumulone content, thus I'm only adding those and the Summit at the very end of the boil (well, and at 5M). And, at least in theory, those getting the oniony flavors seem to be also adding them at the 60M mark, so that is one concern (though it may be dependent on that particular batch of hops).

acidrain23 said:

Beer Calculus clocks this out around 60 IBU's and I really don't want to go higher than that. I want a lot of attenuation and a highly flocculent yeast strain so probably going with S-05. Planning on mashing low 150-152F, and fermenting around 65F (aprox. 60F ambient at the moment). Predicted OG around 1.069 with an ABV of 6.9%.

This brings up another question that I've been thinking about though. If you derive ALL of your IBU's from late hop additions as in this case, does that change the subjective QUALITY of the bittering (I know it changes the flavor). In other words, is there anything wrong with skipping a 60 minute addition?

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How dry do you want it? S05 if properly pitched can take you below 1.010 easily. If you don't want to go that low consider mashing a bit higher.

For hop-burst ales, I'd make sure you like the flavor and aroma of the "bittering" hop (first hop addition) because you're going to get it. Make sure it's not a harsh hop. Some hops tend to be more harsh when added late compared with mellow after being heated/boiling for longer time frames (like FWH).

Hmm, that is food for thought- do you think the nelsons and galaxy will be harsh with the 20 min additions? I know the flavor will be nice. Should I take a lighter touch at 20M and 10M? Say...

20M .25 oz nelson sauvin
20M .25 oz galaxy

10M .25 oz nelson
10M .25 oz galaxy

...keeping the rest of the hop schedule the same?

acidrain23 said:

Hmm, that is food for thought- do you think the nelsons and galaxy will be harsh with the 20 min additions? I know the flavor will be nice. Should I take a lighter touch at 20M and 10M? Say...

20M .25 oz nelson sauvin
20M .25 oz galaxy

10M .25 oz nelson
10M .25 oz galaxy

...keeping the rest of the hop schedule the same?

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I think you're fine with hops that generally work for F/A additions. If you were using a mostly bittering hop at those times I'd be weary.

Recently I did a batch of beer with S-03, which is similar to US-05. I mashed about where you are planning at 149 for 90 minutes. The result was 86% attenuation. You'll have grain/malt flavor from the all malt grain bill, but if you might want to increase your mash temp to leave some more malt sugars in the beer. Maybe it's just me, but when I hear malty, I think malty sweet. Maybe that's not what you are going for.

Yeah maybe. I'm looking for just a hint of sweetness, I do think its possible to get a malty, yet dry beer. More of a "breadiness". Just don't want it to be cloying. Piloncillo too should help dry it out a bit. tre9er, I think I'll take your advice and go with the more restrained 20M and 10M additions. With all of the late hops I think it will be plenty hoppy! And if there is a bit of harshness, all of that malt should mellow it out a bit. Thank for the suggestions all!

Let me know how it turns out. Pics please

I searched sauvin and chinook ipa, led me to this post. I've seen black ipa recipes with sauvin hops, so should be interesting to say the least!

Cheers!

WAY too much victory! That's about four times a normal addition, so I'd cut it alot. Maybe to .25 pound, but up to .5 pound if you want intense toasty/biscuit.

Yooper said:

WAY too much victory! That's about four times a normal addition, so I'd cut it alot. Maybe to .25 pound, but up to .5 pound if you want intense toasty/biscuit.

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yep. the MO (if you go that way) or a vienna would add some malt character as well

Ok, I've reformulated based on all of your suggestions, here is the recipe. This is going to be amazing! Thanks all!!!

4 lbs Light DME
1 lb Piloncillo

3 lbs Dark Munich, or (regular) Munich
2 lbs Marris Otter
.5 lb Honey Malt
.5 lb Midnight Wheat, De-bittered Black Patent, etc.
.25 lbs American Victory

20M .25 oz nelson sauvin
20M .25 oz galaxy

10M .25 oz nelson
10M .25 oz galaxy

5M .5 oz summit
5M .5 oz chinook
5M .5 oz nelson
5M .5 oz galaxy

Flameout .5 oz summit
Flameout .5 oz chinook
Flameout 1 oz nelson
Flameout 1 oz galaxy

Dry Hop 1 oz each summit, chinook, nelson, galaxy

Yeast: S-05

Predicted OG: 1.072
Predicted FG: 1.018
Predicted IBUs: 59
Predicted SRM: 26 (Dark Brown/Black)

What the hell is Piloncillo?

dzlater said:

What the hell is Piloncillo?

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Its an unrefined Mexican sugar, that usually comes in little compressed cones, like these:

I've used it in a couple of brews so far and it is tasty, imparts a subtle rum-like character. Check your local latino grocery if you have one!

acidrain23 said:

Its an unrefined Mexican sugar, that usually comes in little compressed cones, like these:

I've used it in a couple of brews so far and it is tasty, imparts a subtle rum-like character. Check your local latino grocery if you have one!

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Sounds good, I like trying different sugars in my brews.

And for further details "piloncillo" translates as "small pile"

Yooper said:

WAY too much victory! That's about four times a normal addition, so I'd cut it alot. Maybe to .25 pound, but up to .5 pound if you want intense toasty/biscuit.

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Yooper- I recently used a whole lb of victory in a three gallon batch and did not get any intense toasty or biscuity character. Bready definitely. Maybe my LHBS is getting some weak victory? Of course, maybe my taste buds are just a bit shot from years of smoking and drinking!

Bottled this past weekend! Flat warm out of the fermenter tasted AMAZING! This one is going to be awesome. Will update when it carbs up.

Update! This is hands down the best beer I have ever made. Its is FANTASTIC! It is finally, just now fully carbed and I deeply regret drinking 1/2 of the batch prematurely. Good carbonation, mouthfeel (perhaps a little think, maybe cut with a little more sugar going foward). Color is dark brown, almost black. There is a strong malt backbone suppoting the hops. Nose is super fruity as expected, tasting tropical fruits, citrus but it is a bit more complex than that (hint of pine and spice as well- is that the chinook?). Finish is just slightly sweet, but definitely not cloying. No onion from the summit luckily! This is at the top of my list for a rebrew. You IPA hophead freaks out there might want a little more of a bite with the IBU's but for me this is perfect. Hope someone else out there gives this a shot! Cheers!!!