Secondary = new vessel always?

I am following this recipe: POB's Lager

Normally I leave my batch in one bucket the entire time, but as this is my first lager, I want to be certain I am not misunderstanding anything. IWhen the directions call for a secondary ferment (misnomer, I know) which is the "lagering," does it need to be on top of the yeast cake, or does it need to be moved to basically the bottling bucket and then spend the remainder of its time in there?

Neither. Lagering should be done off the yeast cake (usually in a keg or carboy). Buckets for doing a secondary are not a good idea because of their oxygen permeability, which accelerates staling.

There's a lot of headspace in the buckets, which makes them a lot less than ideal for a secondary fermentation. Carboy is a good choice, but since you're batch size is 6 gallons, 5-gallon carboy's too small (which is what I use on the rare occasion I secondary). Guess you could use 6.5 at the expense of a little more headspace.

I agree. If a secondary is done, it should NOT be done in a bucket. Not a big deal for short term storage if you absolutely have to, but for a lager it's not a good idea at all to use a bucket for secondary.

You want to rack the lager off of the yeast, as it will be lagering for 8 weeks or so. But a bucket has wide headspace and is not good at all for a lagering vessel. A carboy, 6 gallon size, has very little headspace and will do well for a lagering vessel. It's even better if it can be flushed with c02 before filling with beer as to help prevent possible oxidation. Often, if you make a 6 gallon sized batch, you end up with 5.5 gallons which still should fit in a 5 gallon carboy up to the top.

Well then can I just bottle it and store the bottles in the fridge for the lagering time? I was under the assumption that a bucket would be okay -_-.

What you can do is rack (siphon/somehow put the beer) the beer into the bottling bucket for long enough to clean your primary really quickly, then rack the beer back into your newly cleaned carboy which has now just become a secondary

I just racked 5 gal of lager to a 6 gal carboy. There is a decent amount of head space. How much of a problem is this?

I don't have a carboy. I only have buckets

I think you can secondary in a bucket, im not entirely sure as i have never used a bucket, but I can't think of any reason you shouldn't use them to secondary.

Follow the same procedure, move beer to a sanitary place you can keep it for a couple minutes, clean your primary, put beer back into your "primary" which is now your secondary, seal, and follow the recipes instructions.

RitsiGators said:

I think you can secondary in a bucket, im not entirely sure as i have never used a bucket, but I can't think of any reason you shouldn't use them to secondary.

Follow the same procedure, move beer to a sanitary place you can keep it for a couple minutes, clean your primary, put beer back into your "primary" which is now your secondary, seal, and follow the recipes instructions.

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Well, the problem with the bucket is the wide headspace. That's why it shouldn't be done, particularly for a lager.

Exactly...too much headspace. There's not enough CO2 being produced any more to push that amount of O2 out of the airlock...you run the risk of oxidation. Oxygen will react with dang near anything given enough time.

timbudtwo said:

Well then can I just bottle it and store the bottles in the fridge for the lagering time? I was under the assumption that a bucket would be okay -_-.

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i'm certainly no expert on lagers, but i think this is a great idea for your situation. if you are bottling and plan to do a 6-8 week cold storage phase after taking it off the yeast, you will likely need to re-dose it with some yeast to aid in bottling. i don't see why you can't bottle and carbonate it first, then cold store it (if storage isn't an issue). i'm pretty sure i've seen this exact plan recommended elsewhere on the forum.

Home Depot sells 5 gallon food quality buckets. That would give you just about no head space. Your primary top will fit the HD bucket. Just a thought. Never done a lager.

I've never lagered, so as long as the fermentation is complete, I don't see why that wouldn't work. But if the fermentation takes a lot longer to complete than an ale, you could get bottle bombs. But again...I've never lagered .

From what I have read, the oxidation shouldn't be a huge issue because it has the variable of temperature. Plus, it is a short lager. Only 3 weeks at 31F.
Question though:
If I were to bottle it, would I let it sit at room temp to carb for a couple days and then put it in the fridge, or would I lager it in bottle with the extra sugar, and then pull it out after the lagering finished to fully carb, then re-refrigerate?

Or do you know of any better solution? I don't really want to have to buy a full carboy.

If you don't want to use a separate vessel for a secondary, siphon out the yeast only (you will get some beer out as well) into a sanitized kettle, let sit till yeast is settled, and then just siphon the clear beer from the kettle back off into the primary until only a yeast cake remains in the kettle. Viola, secondary without a secondary vessel!

DannPM said:

If you don't want to use a separate vessel for a secondary, siphon out the yeast only (you will get some beer out as well) into a sanitized kettle, let sit till yeast is settled, and then just siphon the clear beer from the kettle back off into the primary until only a yeast cake remains in the kettle. Viola, secondary without a secondary vessel!

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That's not the issue. I don't have a carboy, and I have been told that a bucket is bad for a lagering. I'm asking what my best option would be.

So im going to call up my lhbs and see if they have any used carboys. If not, I think I am going to buy this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002VFXW5W/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And then get a carboy cap.

Will that be a solution? I have a 20oz co2 container I can use to blast some co2 into the headspace.

man, i say just go for the bottling, carbing, then lagering option.

android said:

man, i say just go for the bottling, carbing, then lagering option.

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So having the bottles sitting at room temp for a few days to carb up wont be a problem?

timbudtwo said:

So having the bottles sitting at room temp for a few days to carb up wont be a problem?

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Naw. 56789...