Help With Phenols (I Think)

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JeffoC6

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I have another thread currently on the beginning forum, but I have a feeling my answers my lie in this forum.

I started brewing 1 Gallon All Grain batches back in February 2012. I have my process down and pretty much hit my numbers like clockwork. In the time I've been brewing, I have brewed everything from IPA's, to Stouts, to Porters, to Belgian Christmas Beers, to Pumpkin Ales, to Apfelwein. I started out using Poland Springs Spring water as my base. The first bunch of beers I made, I used this water. I noticed that there was a very sharp flavor in my beer, that I noticed especially when I burped. It was sort of tart, plastic-y, and just not a good flavor at all. It was somewhat apparent on the tongue, but very apparent in each burp.

I tried to alleviate this off flavor for some time. Some said I was overcarbonating, some said I had infections, and some blamed my water. Using some tips from Yooper and this forum (Brew Science), I decided to move forward with using distilled water only, and adding some calcium chloride to my water. I also was told that my mash (I was doing full volume BIAB) might have been too thin, and I may be screwing up my pH. So I changed to distilled water with calcium chloride and I lowered my BIAB water volume by about 25% (I added the water to a separate pot and now mash with less water, causing a thicker mash. I then dunk sparge in the separate pot and then combine everything).

Still, I have this taste. I took a break from brewing in October because of it. Every beer I made had this taste to it, and it literally has left me not wanting to pursue this hobby anymore. I haven't made 1 beer that I've been proud of. Even the apfelwein has an odd flavor tinge to it. Not really the burps though.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and I don't know how to fix it. Distilled water, I'm told, does not have chlorine or chlorimines in it, and the flavors I've been describing are often linked to that. I'm really quite focused on my santizing procedures, so I really don't imagine how that could be it either. My starsan is made with distilled water as well. The only time my brewing gear comes in contact with my (hard) tap water is when I clean everything.

To clean carboys, I fill up the carboy with some hot tap water and add some b-brite. I let it soak to remove all the gunk. I then rinse with hot water and use some unscented dish soap if any gunk remains.

I also clean my bottling wand, autosiphon, hydrometer, hydrometer test tube, turkey baster, tubing, airlocks, caps, etc. with the unscented dish soap and hot tap water.

When I dry hop, I boil my hop bag in tap water for approx 3 minutes, then I take it out, shake it dry, and let it soak in starsan and distilled water for a few minutes before I fill it with hops and drop it in my fermenter.

I use distilled water when bottle priming.

When I bottle, I fill my sink with about 3 gallons of hot water. I add 3 tablespoons of b-brite and mix it all around until it dissolves. Then I put my bottles in there and let them soak for about 2-3 hours. Afterwards, I rinse each bottle for approx. 1 minute with cold water, then I put them upside down in a 6-pack holder. When I'm ready to bottle, I fill them about halfway with starsan and distilled water.

Please help me. I'm at the end of the line here. If I continue to have these issues, I feel as though I may not want to pursue this hobby any longer.

Jeff
 
Wow, this is an odd problem. I had a similar issue and found out I was scorching the wort, especially when I used to extract brew. I wasn't stirring vigorously enough when I added the extract. I've since switched to all grain and my first couple of batches had that same 'homebrew' twang to it. I figured out that scorching was probably my problem by reading posts on this board and taking a good hard look at my method. Now when the wort is heating to boil I constantly stir it. Once it reaches a boil I let it go since the wort is really moving at that point. Ever since I changed my method the 'twang' has significantly been reduced and it's non-existent in the Helles I brewed 2 months ago (a good thing). Now, I say this is an odd problem because your also tasting it in your apple wine, which normally isn't boiled, so scorching should not be the problem. The only thing I see in common is the dish soap. I never use dish soap on any of my beer/wine equipment. Hot water, STARSAN, BLC, OxyClean, are all fine, but I never use dish soap. If I could get my wife to stop using soap on my beer mug I would! I'm not saying this is your issue, but it might be worth investigating.
 
I know when I first started brewing I was using starsan and such but noticed a weird twang in the aftertaste of my beers. I wasn't sure what it was until a more experienced brewer tasted it and said it might be the starsan. Out of curiosity I switched to iodine for all my sanitizing and haven't had a problem since. Not not saying this is your issue for sure, but I'd give it a shot if you haven't yet. Keep me posted and I'll ask my fellow brewers anything you got. Nothing's worse than losing a homebrewer!
 
I have another thread currently on the beginning forum, but I have a feeling my answers my lie in this forum.

I started brewing 1 Gallon All Grain batches back in February 2012. I have my process down and pretty much hit my numbers like clockwork. In the time I've been brewing, I have brewed everything from IPA's, to Stouts, to Porters, to Belgian Christmas Beers, to Pumpkin Ales, to Apfelwein. I started out using Poland Springs Spring water as my base. The first bunch of beers I made, I used this water. I noticed that there was a very sharp flavor in my beer, that I noticed especially when I burped. It was sort of tart, plastic-y, and just not a good flavor at all. It was somewhat apparent on the tongue, but very apparent in each burp.

I tried to alleviate this off flavor for some time. Some said I was overcarbonating, some said I had infections, and some blamed my water. Using some tips from Yooper and this forum (Brew Science), I decided to move forward with using distilled water only, and adding some calcium chloride to my water. I also was told that my mash (I was doing full volume BIAB) might have been too thin, and I may be screwing up my pH. So I changed to distilled water with calcium chloride and I lowered my BIAB water volume by about 25% (I added the water to a separate pot and now mash with less water, causing a thicker mash. I then dunk sparge in the separate pot and then combine everything).

Still, I have this taste. I took a break from brewing in October because of it. Every beer I made had this taste to it, and it literally has left me not wanting to pursue this hobby anymore. I haven't made 1 beer that I've been proud of. Even the apfelwein has an odd flavor tinge to it. Not really the burps though.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and I don't know how to fix it. Distilled water, I'm told, does not have chlorine or chlorimines in it, and the flavors I've been describing are often linked to that. I'm really quite focused on my santizing procedures, so I really don't imagine how that could be it either. My starsan is made with distilled water as well. The only time my brewing gear comes in contact with my (hard) tap water is when I clean everything.

To clean carboys, I fill up the carboy with some hot tap water and add some b-brite. I let it soak to remove all the gunk. I then rinse with hot water and use some unscented dish soap if any gunk remains.

I also clean my bottling wand, autosiphon, hydrometer, hydrometer test tube, turkey baster, tubing, airlocks, caps, etc. with the unscented dish soap and hot tap water.

When I dry hop, I boil my hop bag in tap water for approx 3 minutes, then I take it out, shake it dry, and let it soak in starsan and distilled water for a few minutes before I fill it with hops and drop it in my fermenter.

I use distilled water when bottle priming.

When I bottle, I fill my sink with about 3 gallons of hot water. I add 3 tablespoons of b-brite and mix it all around until it dissolves. Then I put my bottles in there and let them soak for about 2-3 hours. Afterwards, I rinse each bottle for approx. 1 minute with cold water, then I put them upside down in a 6-pack holder. When I'm ready to bottle, I fill them about halfway with starsan and distilled water.

Please help me. I'm at the end of the line here. If I continue to have these issues, I feel as though I may not want to pursue this hobby any longer.

Jeff

While many homebrewers are always quick to blame phenolic off flavors on an external source the most likely cause is typically an infection or high fermentation temperatures.

Do not use kitchen dish soap, unscented or otherwise, on brewing equipment. The powdered products sold by all homebrew suppliers are what you should be using. Clean everything thoroughly. That means taking apart the valves and separating the tubing junctions. If there is any doubt on any plastic parts, replace them. On any component that can take the heat, rinse with hot rather than cold water. And don't over-rinse, a full minute seems much too long. If your components are truly clean and then sanitized with an appropriate dilution of Star-San your risk of infection should be low.
 
While many homebrewers are always quick to blame phenolic off flavors on an external source the most likely cause is typically an infection or high fermentation temperatures.

Do not use kitchen dish soap, unscented or otherwise, on brewing equipment. The powdered products sold by all homebrew suppliers are what you should be using. Clean everything thoroughly. That means taking apart the valves and separating the tubing junctions. If there is any doubt on any plastic parts, replace them. On any component that can take the heat, rinse with hot rather than cold water. And don't over-rinse, a full minute seems much too long. If your components are truly clean and then sanitized with an appropriate dilution of Star-San your risk of infection should be low.

That was my first thought as well. Are you fermenting on the cool side of the fermenting range?
 
@BigEg and Cyclman- I have a temp controlled fermentation chamber and always ferment on the lower end of the yeast range (62 with US-05 on my last IPA).

Point taken about "dish soap." I definitely always take everything apart to clean.
 
Yeah, missed the thing about cleaning with soap. But having an experienced taster is a very good idea. They can help narrow the problem down for you and maybe have some suggestions to what to change in your brew process to eliminate it.

But I'd still try switching to iodine to sanitize because it sounds like you're pretty thorough with your cleaning and sanitizing. Like I said, I had an 'off-flavor' issue for several months when I first started brewing and it disappeared when I switched to iodine. I was equally as thorough in my sanitizing procedures with the starsan and iodine. Plus you don't have to stand there and stir the starsan for a while to get it to dissolve with iodine :)
 
Yeah, missed the thing about cleaning with soap. But having an experienced taster is a very good idea. They can help narrow the problem down for you and maybe have some suggestions to what to change in your brew process to eliminate it.

But I'd still try switching to iodine to sanitize because it sounds like you're pretty thorough with your cleaning and sanitizing. Like I said, I had an 'off-flavor' issue for several months when I first started brewing and it disappeared when I switched to iodine. I was equally as thorough in my sanitizing procedures with the starsan and iodine. Plus you don't have to stand there and stir the starsan for a while to get it to dissolve with iodine :)

Can you fill me in a little more about using iodine instead of starsan?
Where can I buy it?
How do you use it?
Is it no rinse? Or do you have to rinse with it?

Would appreciate any details...Thanks!
 
Sorry to hear about your troubles and I hope you can find a solution!

I would agree with having other folks taste your beer and get their opinion of the flavor. If you have access to a homebrew club maybe you can ask if you can bring some to a meeting. This will also give you an opportunity to taste some other homebrews in the area too compare.

So many people use Star-San, I just don't see the problem being there. What about the bag material? Just guessing.

Maybe try an extract batch and see if the taste remains.
 
You just grab a bottle of iodine from the local homebrew store, mix in a teaspoon per 1.5 gallons of warm water, rinse your equipment in it and let it air dry. It's about the same price as starsan and works the same way. And hey, if it isn't the source of the bad flavor, it sure wont hurt anything! It's worth a shot IMO
 
the iodine sanitizer is sold as Iodophor. the company that makes Star San makes one called I/O Star, which is what I use. Iodophor is no rinse, and no foaming.
 
no rinse and no foaming, might need to give that a try...but back on topic besides the dish soap what else does your beer and apple wine brewing have in common? For example someone mentioned a brew bag did you use that on both? Scientifically you would only want to change one variable at a time to eliminate the culprit but realistically it's a bit much to brew 15 batches of brew you don't like, so I would change everything you had in common (beer and apple wine) and re-introduce them one by one if, for example, you really liked using starsan over iodophor. Again my money is on the dish soap. I would rinse everything that touches your wort in hot water, maybe use a little oxy clean free and rinse well before using the equipment the next time. It could also be something like oxidization, and filling your carboy only half way..moving it from one spot to another and shaking it up on accident...could affect both your beer and apple wine. Just a thought.
 
no rinse and no foaming, might need to give that a try...but back on topic besides the dish soap what else does your beer and apple wine brewing have in common? For example someone mentioned a brew bag did you use that on both? Scientifically you would only want to change one variable at a time to eliminate the culprit but realistically it's a bit much to brew 15 batches of brew you don't like, so I would change everything you had in common (beer and apple wine) and re-introduce them one by one if, for example, you really liked using starsan over iodophor. Again my money is on the dish soap. I would rinse everything that touches your wort in hot water, maybe use a little oxy clean free and rinse well before using the equipment the next time. It could also be something like oxidization, and filling your carboy only half way..moving it from one spot to another and shaking it up on accident...could affect both your beer and apple wine. Just a thought.

My bottling process and the bottles and priming sugar.

Could it be the 2-3 hour soak in B-Brite, and the subsequent rinsing? Am I not getting it all rinsed out? Is my rinsing with tap water leaving chlorine stuck in my bottles?
 
do you know if your city water uses chloramines instead of chlorine? Eaiter way I wouldn't think your rinse water would affect taste, but I could be wrong.
 
do you know if your city water uses chloramines instead of chlorine? Eaiter way I wouldn't think your rinse water would affect taste, but I could be wrong.

I'm not really sure, I've never had a water report done, but as you said, I wouldn't think my rinse would actually lend that much of an off-flavor. I could be wrong though?
 
Wow... This IS a difficult one...

If you tried using distilled water then you're definitely not getting chlorophenols via chlorinates in your water. (A camden tablet would be a cheaper alternative for knocking them out.)

I was initially looking to blame your sanitizer / sanitization process (expecting that you were mixing up a water+bleach solution or something) but B-Brite at the recommended concentration for the recommended time shouldn't be an issue.

Fermentation temps I also wouldn't blame if you're using English or American ale yeasts as they don't have the gene required to produce phenols...

The next place I'd look is your tubing; ESPECIALLY any tubing that comes in contact with hot wort.
The second alternative is that what you're tasting isn't actually phenols at all and we've been troubleshooting down the wrong "branch".

-Can you explain the flavor that you're encountering in any more detail? Does it get worse, get better, or stay the same over time as the beer ages in the bottle?


Adam
 
Hmm... I see you said it's a "plasticy" flavor, that's not a bad descriptor at all.

The background information on the thick mash is also good to know as it helps to direct us away from tannin/polyphenol extraction from grain (as does the information about the apfel wine)...

Just for giggles: (I don't think this is it): What does your sparge temp and procedure look like?

What does your chilling procedure and equipment look like?

Is there any where that the hot wort comes in contact with plastic or plastic/vinyl tubing for an extended period of time? -What type of plastic?


Adam
 
Going to jump in on this as another guy having problems with off-flavors.

The only time my tubing comes in contact with "hot" wort is moving from the mash tun to the kettle and then after chilling from the kettle to the fermenter.

At the first movement, the liquid is about 148-165 deg. and it takes 2-3mins to transfer. Is that too hot to be using plastic tubing?

At the transfer to the fermenter, the wort is down to around 80 degs max. I can't imagine that would be too hot.
 
You're fine with that from the cooled kettle to the fermenter...but not from the mash to the kettle. Leaching stuff out of the plastic most likely. Get a piece of silicone hose for mash to kettle (could use it for both...)
 

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