Moving up to 25 Gal batches

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5

5 Is Not Enough

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I've been brewing 5 gal batches, but find that 5 gallons just don't last long enough. I've decided to make the investment for some serious equipment. I have put together my ideas, but was hoping maybe somebody would have some ideas that could save me money or headache.
Also, worth noting, I will be beginning All Grain batches next spring, but will be using extract for the first batch or two.
My shopping list:
Update International 160qt aluminum stock pot w/ lid, I add ball valve($200)
Bayou Classic SP10 20PSI propane burner($40)
Homemade counterflow chiller, probably 30' x 3/8"($70)
37.5 gallon food grade polyethylene tank for fermenter, custom fittings for drain, airlock...($100)
5 gallon pin-lock (coke style) kegs, force carbonating what fits in the fridge, maybe sugar priming what doesn't(?)(2 taps, 2 faucets, 10 kegs - $430)
33lb Muntons bulk extract syrup($60), steeping grains, maybe some additional DME in some recipes
Hops- undecided whether or not to buy the bulk (1lb-$10) for common bittering hops...
Not sure how much yeast will be needed for pitching the large batch, but probably use Muntons Gold, I guess packets(?)
Will probably us promash to calculate the ingredients for the bigger batches
Anything I'm missing, please let me know.
Also, for 25gal, will a converted 100qt cooler work for a MLT later?
Will the SP 10 bring the 31 gallons I'll need up to boil in a reasonable time?
I assume that the counterflow chiller will be my best bet?
Will a rectangular shaped PE tank cause any complications?
BTW, I'm new to HBT and would appreciate any help or insight! Thanks!
 
Glibbidy said:
Go AG immediately, and start making ten gallon batches, with the idea of futureproofing your rig.
Click to expand...


+1

I just did my first AG....went better than I thought, next round will be a lot better and easier
 
Brewing that large is going to take some patience and more time. Boiling 25 gallons of water is going to eat up a lot of propane. Why not just brew more 5 gallon batches? If your going to invest that much money, just spend it on a simpler 10 gallon AG rig like the one shown in this issue of Brew magazine.
 
I don't even want to think about how long it would take to cool 25 gallons with a 30' IC.

I would take it in baby steps. 5 gallons to 25 is a huge jump. Start with 10 gallons and AG and see how it goes.
 
Okay…I’ll say it.

You’re bonkers.

Ask yourself a few questions:

What beer in the world could you possibly love so much that you want to have 25 gallons of it?
What level of confidence do you have that you’d sink that much time and money in one 25-gallon batch?
Once you do two batches…your cornies are full. Are you then done brewing for two years?
How fast can you drink 25 gallons of the same beer?

Okay…end rant.

Now, brewing massive single batches with so little storage capacity (10-cornies) is kind of counter to most peoples approach on this forum. We like to talk about our next recipe. Our next style. Tweaks to our next brew process. I brew 10-gallon batches and brew most every weekend…rarely the same recipe twice in a row. We’re all about different beer styles and recipes and brewing what we can’t get our hands on (Stone IPA).

I’d say you go all grain and at most…do 10-gallon batches.

If you pay attention throughout this forum, Monday mornings are chalk full of “I think I mashed too high”…”I missed my target gravity”…”I had a stuck sparge”…comments. Fortunately, since these are 5 or 10 gallon batches, we can make adjustments and try again next week.

Sorry for ranting, but I’d just hate to see you miss your original gravity target by 10 points and be stuck with 25 gallons of disappointment.
 
Your not gonna want to jump headfirst into all grain starting with 25 gallon batches that's for sure! Mistakes or mishaps would be costly.

IMHO, develop your skills and procedures with 5 & 10 gallon batches and ramp it up from there if you feel the need to increase your batch size.
 
Cookiebaggs said:
Your not gonna want to jump headfirst into all grain starting with 25 gallon batches that's for sure! Mistakes or mishaps would be costly.
Click to expand...


He's talking 25 gallon Extract batches...

Dont do it. Heed the advice of the elders here and go AG. :mug:
 
I was responding to this.

Also, worth noting, I will be beginning All Grain batches next spring, but will be using extract for the first batch or two.
Click to expand...


That being said, I wouldn't want to pay the ingredient bill for a 25 gallon extract batch on top of the equipment cost to brew that big of a batch. :eek:
 
Hmmm...
Guess I should clarify, this is actually a joint effort. The kegs would be distributed, so I wouldn't have to drink 25 gallons of a single brew, more like 10. The equipment cost is also being split, as is the workload.
My thought: me and my friends + a couple Sunday afternoons + one big batch ~3-4 hours + kegging + $90 worth of ingredients = 11 cases of beer / $8/case.
I've been spending more on commercial beer($30-$40/case) because I run out of homebrew and don't have time to do a batch every week.
Also, buying 33lb LME for $60 is pretty economical. I already bought a year-old 44lb box of coopers DME from my local HB shop for $110 and it makes it easy for me to control the O.G. pretty easily (not stuck to just the 33lb tub + small cans...)
The batch size to brew was not my question. I was hoping to get some advice from brewers that are brewing larger batches, that may be able to alert me of additional concerns with the larger sizes and a recommendation of the equipment I'm looking at and the prices I've found.
I only want to buy one more set of equipment, then the mash tun next year (yeah, I'll start w/ a couple smaller batches for that). I will also be brewing smaller "experimental" batches in the carboys that I have.

If the 30' cf chiller is inadequate, what would be my best bet?
 
5isnotenough said:
If the 30' cf chiller is inadequate, what would be my best bet?
Click to expand...

Therminator

therminator.jpg
 
5isnotenough said:
If the 30' cf chiller is inadequate, what would be my best bet?
Click to expand...
Glycol chiller & while your at it, you might as well bypass the 25 gallons, and go directly to a 1BBL system.
Your gonna need some conical fermenters, cold room, a yeast lab, and a good roller mill. I can't see how it could possibly be more cost effective to extract brew that much beer. I'm maing ten gallon batches at 20 cents a pint on a good day.
Just curious....what is your projected average cost for brewing 25 gallons using extract?
 
5isnotenough said:
Hops- undecided whether or not to buy the bulk (1lb-$10) for common bittering hops...
Click to expand...
Given the hop shortage, I'd grab all you can if you're serious about going to 25 gal.

Not sure how much yeast will be needed for pitching the large batch, but probably use Muntons Gold, I guess packets(?)
Click to expand...
Try the pitching rate calculator at http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html


Also, for 25gal, will a converted 100qt cooler work for a MLT later?
Click to expand...
You'll max out at about 1.060 OG. As long as you're OK with that (or don;t mind doing bigger beers as PMs), the 100Q should be sufficient


Will a rectangular shaped PE tank cause any complications?
Click to expand...
Cleaning the corners would be the biggest concern. Good place for nasties to hide.
 
I know a couple of guys that brew 15 gallon batches and split it up. They will do 2 or 3 beers in a single brew session. It works well for them and brewday is one big party with people dropping in and out. If you are brewing as a group and splitting it up, this is a good idea, but I bet you will still run out if you don't do more than one batch at a time.

That said, it will be hard to get that 25 gallons to a good rolling boil. I would suggest trying to find a used steam-jacketed kettle from a restaurant supply store or off ebay/craigslist. Another idea would be to buy two kettles and split the batch. You could combine them in the fermenter. I would also suggest you stick to tried and true recipes when going that large. Maybe do 5 gallon test batches until you have your recipe down.

I say go for it and report back and let us know how it went.
 
25 gallon extract batches? Why, WHy, WHY? This is giving me flashbacks of the really shiny, super-duper, first-ever, all-in-one, extract brewing system that's available for the amazing low price of $4k. :drunk:

I agree with the consensus here. Get a burner, a wort chiller, a keggle, and do a cooler to MLT conversion and start doing 10 gallon AG batches.

If you buy everything new you'll have around $300 in it.

25 gallon batches with a stash of only 10 cornies? That's madness.
 
Cookiebaggs said:
You can get an Igloo 162 qt marine cooler.

p195819reg.jpg


That would be one hell of a batch sparge!
Click to expand...

I have one of these... dont use it for beer though... only Tuna / mahi / albacore / mako :rockin:
 
JoeRags said:
I have one of these... dont use it for beer though... only Tuna / mahi / albacore / mako :rockin:
Click to expand...


:off:

Yeah, we routinely put 200+ lbs of salmon from Lake Michigan in one on a fishing trip.
 
WOW?!!
Glad to see that everyone in this forum is so open minded and willing to help!
So... guess I'll get no advice from anyone with any experience in this kind of situation.
Brew your batches... 10 gal at a time. Don't expand and if you do, you have to do AG, you have to spend $4000, you have to have 40 extra kegs, you won't drink it fast enough...
Thanks for all the help!
 
5isnotenough said:
WOW?!!
Glad to see that everyone in this forum is so open minded and willing to help!
So... guess I'll get no advice from anyone with any experience in this kind of situation.
Brew your batches... 10 gal at a time. Don't expand and if you do, you have to do AG, you have to spend $4000, you have to have 40 extra kegs, you won't drink it fast enough...
Thanks for all the help!
Click to expand...

You know - I haven't said anything up until now. There are some VERY experienced guys on this board; many of which have tried to give you advice. A SMART person would look at that advice and reconsider their position.

So far, I don't see any reconsidering...
 
5isnotenough said:
WOW?!!
Glad to see that everyone in this forum is so open minded and willing to help!
So... guess I'll get no advice from anyone with any experience in this kind of situation.
Brew your batches... 10 gal at a time. Don't expand and if you do, you have to do AG, you have to spend $4000, you have to have 40 extra kegs, you won't drink it fast enough...
Thanks for all the help!
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, I held back my sarcasm in my OP.

Look, I can appreciate your desire to brew more beer. We all want to brew more beer.

You suggest purchasing 10 kegs, but you plan on brewing in 25 gallon batches. So unless you plan on leaving your brews in secondary or tertiary vessels for extended periods of time, then you only have the capacity to store 2 batches of beer - 5 kegs at a time.

Unless you plan on kicking a 5 gallon keg every 2.5 days or so (and thusly sending yourself thrusting into AA meetings), you don't have the capacity to be brewing 25 gallon batches on an even semi-regular basis.

Now for the really silly point of your post - are you seriously thinking about doing 25 gallon extract batches? I don't have anything against extract brewing - I think I'm in the majority when I say that this is how I started brewing. I also quickly moved from extract brewing for a reason. It leaves a 'twang' in beers that is undesireable, and it offers very little room for recipe formulation or creativity of any kind.

Extract brewing is a great starting point, but (most) everyone who is serious about making quality beer moves beyond extract brewing fairly quickly. Some are happy making 3-6 extract batches a year and there's nothing wrong with that - but investing in all of the hardware that you suggested above - to do extract batches - is just plain silly.

Then again, maybe I'm just an EAC?
 
I thought about going to 20 gallon batches, but have decided against it mainly from the hassle of the weight of the spent grain. 20 gallons batches would use almost 50# of grain and that's DRY. I have fun schlepping 10 gallons batches to my front yard now and double that would not be fun and my back would protest!
 
If you came in here thinking you'd just get straight answers and nothing else, you just haven't been on the internet long enough. My father recently got all kinds of pissed off because he posted on the comments section of some random blog and never received a reply, except for "idiot!". Talk about noob.

If you stick with extract, there is no good reason to scale up to anything bigger than 10 gallons when you can literally bang out 5 of those batches in the same day. The beauty of it is they don't all have to be exactly the same.
You can also do a 4x concentrated boil of 10 gallons and put 2 gallons into each 5 gallon fermenter, top off each with 3 gallons of water. Done.

You can sift through the posts like this one that suggest it's an a$$-backwards idea without getting all huffy. Stick around though. There's a lot to learn. You just have to learn to take good with the bad (not really bad, just honest) posts.
 
EdWort said:
I thought about going to 20 gallon batches, but have decided against it mainly from the hassle of the weight of the spent grain. 20 gallons batches would use almost 50# of grain and that's DRY. I have fun schlepping 10 gallons batches to my front yard now and double that would not be fun and my back would protest!
Click to expand...

A shovel and wheelbarrow would do wonders for this. Though before embarking on this adventure, I would think about the disposal of the grains first. My SWMBO would kill me if I tried dumping that much grain around my backyard. :D

I think you guys are taking it awfully hard on this guy. If 3 people go in together and brew a 25 gallon batch, that's only 3 8 gallon batches. And there are brew pubs out there that are basically extract brewers and they are doing 5+BBL batches.

I do think they will want to get more kegs. They guys I know that do something similar to this (but AG) have over 40 kegs between them. On their brew days, they will empty 8 kegs. They brew more for their friends and to have a party than for themselves.

I still say go for it. Sounds like a lot of fun to me. :rockin:
 
5isnotenough said:
I've been brewing 5 gal batches, but find that 5 gallons just don't last long enough. I've decided to make the investment for some serious equipment. I have put together my ideas, but was hoping maybe somebody would have some ideas that could save me money or headache.
Also, worth noting, I will be beginning All Grain batches next spring, but will be using extract for the first batch or two.
My shopping list:
Update International 160qt aluminum stock pot w/ lid, I add ball valve($200)
Bayou Classic SP10 20PSI propane burner($40)
Homemade counterflow chiller, probably 30' x 3/8"($70)
37.5 gallon food grade polyethylene tank for fermenter, custom fittings for drain, airlock...($100)
5 gallon pin-lock (coke style) kegs, force carbonating what fits in the fridge, maybe sugar priming what doesn't(?)(2 taps, 2 faucets, 10 kegs - $430)
33lb Muntons bulk extract syrup($60), steeping grains, maybe some additional DME in some recipes
Hops- undecided whether or not to buy the bulk (1lb-$10) for common bittering hops...
Not sure how much yeast will be needed for pitching the large batch, but probably use Muntons Gold, I guess packets(?)
Will probably us promash to calculate the ingredients for the bigger batches
Anything I'm missing, please let me know.
Also, for 25gal, will a converted 100qt cooler work for a MLT later?
Will the SP 10 bring the 31 gallons I'll need up to boil in a reasonable time?
I assume that the counterflow chiller will be my best bet?
Will a rectangular shaped PE tank cause any complications?
BTW, I'm new to HBT and would appreciate any help or insight! Thanks!
Click to expand...

I regularly brew 45 gallon batches. Mashing in a 150 qt cooler:

MaxMashTun.jpg


or a 55 gallon barrel:

Darren%20039.jpg


and boiling in a 55 gallon SS pot:

Flame.jpg


and I ferment using a 55 gallon barrell which I picked up from the local homebrew shop...it used to contain extract:

55Fermenter.jpg


My biggest problem is controlling fermentation temps. A 40-45 gallon batch of beer will ferment at about 10 degrees warmer than ambient, therefore I can only brew in the late fall/winter/early spring when ambient temps in my garage are between 50-58 degrees.
 
Excelent first post Samon Slayer! Welcome to the board!

There you go 5isnotenough thats how you do it
 
Ok, let's soften up a bit. I'd still recommend going all grain on a smaller scale first and then you can really exploit the economy of scale. We're talking about half price.

Get yourself a big propane tank because you'll blow through a 20lb in one batch easy. You'll need an in-line chiller like a CFC or plate. No way on an IC. For a mashtun, I'd go with a 30 gallon food grade barrel shoved inside a 55 gallon barrel with insulation shoved in between.

I know I'm scared of big batches because they're not all winning beers. If I have a so-so batch, I always wish that was the one time I paired back to 5 gallons. You start getting cocky and you have a whole mess of crappy beer.
 
5isnotenough said:
WOW?!!
Glad to see that everyone in this forum is so open minded and willing to help!
So... guess I'll get no advice from anyone with any experience in this kind of situation.
Brew your batches... 10 gal at a time. Don't expand and if you do, you have to do AG, you have to spend $4000, you have to have 40 extra kegs, you won't drink it fast enough...
Thanks for all the help!
Click to expand...
Guess I'll take the blame for this one... :(
 
Wow SalmonSlayer, that is an awesome setup! There ya go all you naysayers. It can be done.

I would have to agree with BobbyM on scaling things up. Maybe do some 5 gallon or 3 gallon PM recipes to get an idea if you are going to like it before going full bore.

Also note that the larger the batch size, the SRM will lighten. If you have brewing software, try taking one of your recipes at 5 gallons and scaling it up to say 500 gallons. Big difference in color. Not sure if it would be noticeable in a 25 gallon batch, but something to consider.
 
Ease up on this poor guy. He's a brother homebrewer and he just wants a little help. Thinking big can be a good thing I see nothing wrong with that. SWMBO thinks big.
I might have the wrong read on you but I think you are new to homebrewing and you and your friends think the beer tastes great so you all want to get together as buds on the weekend and make beer. Damn good Idea! My suggestion is that since you are doing DME just boil and cool 10 gallons. This is how much AG guys do regularly. Then mix it with 15 gallons of cool water. Simple and cheap.
Don't be discouraged grasshopper.
 
Negatives of a big brewery:

1. Brew days are brutal. There is a lot of work to do and a lot of waiting while water heats, wort boils. I normally start about 7:30 and wrap up cleaning around 5:00. I am ready for a few pints by then.

2. Ever forget a hop addition? No big deal with 5 gallons but if you are brewing a big batch and trying to get it perfect then you have to live with your mistake for 45 gallons worth of pints.

3. Lots of extra cost in cleaning/sanitizing/expendable supplies.

4. You have to plan your brew days meticulosly.

5. Ever toss 5 gallons of bew because it wasn't any good? Try doing that with 45!

6. Ingredients for a 5 gallon batch most anyone can purchase without budgeting. Try that with a 45 gallon batch.

Hint: Buy a large 100lb propane tank as the smaller ones will freeze.

Pros:

1. Lots of beer on tap.

2. Legal way of killing neighbors thru liver abuse.

3. You can show off your big brewery.
 
I'm curious SalmonSlayer. How long does it take to bring the wort to boil?

Ever think of rigging up a hard pipe from the MLT to the kettle that you could heat (think flash water heater)?

I think heating that much liquid would be my main concern. A large steam jacketed kettle seems like it would be the best solution.
 
It leaves the MLT at 168-170 into the kettle. I have the burner under kettle on low while I continue to sparge (when fly sparging) and try to keep the wort about 190 until I get the full volume into the kettle. From there it takes approx 15 minutes to bring 30 gallons to boil and 25-30 minutes to bring 45 gallons to boil.
 
5isnotenough said:
WOW?!!
Glad to see that everyone in this forum is so open minded and willing to help!
So... guess I'll get no advice from anyone with any experience in this kind of situation.
Brew your batches... 10 gal at a time. Don't expand and if you do, you have to do AG, you have to spend $4000, you have to have 40 extra kegs, you won't drink it fast enough...
Thanks for all the help!
Click to expand...
Hey man, don't be so sensitive. Everyone's trying to help, and they're just being honest. I don't think anyone here brews extract on the sort of scale you suggest, and there are probably a handful pretty good reasons for that. If nothing else, folks are just trying to help you get a kick ass brewery for the money you seem to be willing to spend. Take 'er easy.

Obviously you want to brew big, and you want to brew all grain. So, it seems natural to me to spend the cash on an AG system right now. In fact, with the kind of money you're suggesting, you can really get some sweet equipment. Northern Brewer has some nice stainless kettles for prices that rival the aluminum one you found (I'd choose stainless for durability alone - I don't get involved with the rest of the silly metal debate). A cooler mash tun and copper manifold will suit you well - get a big rectangular one, and you'll be set up for 10-25 gallon batches. As for chilling the wort, go with a CFC or plate chiller. Immersion chillers become expensive and unwieldy at the scale you're talking about. One other thing - if you're moving that much wort, you'll probably want a pump. Look into a magnetic drive pump from March. I'll leave you with one final question - how are you going to control the temperature of the fermentation?

Now, RDWHAHB, and come back to the discussion when you've cooled off a bit.
 

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