idea

Ok, as a long time beer brewing member of this forum, I have absolutely no doubt that this has been both brought up and discussed before. As usual, I can't get the search to find the info I am looking for.

I would like to get a bunch of apples, press them, strain the juice, boil the juice down to elevate the sugar and flavor concentration. Use a very low tolerance, low attenuation yeast to ferment it, so the yeast poops out while leaving a reasonably predictable amount of leftover sugar.

This way, there is no need to backsweeten with nasty fake sugar products, bleh.
There is no fear of bottle bombs.
The apple flavor is not secondary to tart dry-ness.
Extreme apple flavor compared to boosting alcohol with corn sugar.

So, what makes this not work? What is the lowest tolerance, lowest attenuating yeast? Does boiling apple juice screw it up?

Instead of boiling I would freeze it instead, pretty much the same concept. Boiling will make it cloudy by setting in pectins.

The only thing I can think of is that you're going to need a hell of a lot of juice, get the SG of the juice to around 1.100 and then ferment with an ale yeast and hope it doesn't chew through it.

agree with above. although i have never done it, i can't imagine that boiling the juice for long enough to concentrate it significantly is going to do the flavor much justice. freeze concentrating is a proven strategy in making apple icewines, has been on my to-try list for a while now... tiny european freezer bedamned

I think the consensus is that the sugars in apple juice are 100% fermentable, so any yeast eat all the sugar and take the cider dry. The only possibility with your method would be to concentrate enough sugars that the alcohol produced would exceed the alcohol tolerance of the yeast. In this case, you would certainly have wine and not cider.

smyrnaquince said:

I think the consensus is that the sugars in apple juice are 100% fermentable, so any yeast eat all the sugar and take the cider dry. The only possibility with your method would be to concentrate enough sugars that the alcohol produced would exceed the alcohol tolerance of the yeast. In this case, you would certainly have wine and not cider.

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And THAT is why I want the lowest alcohol tolerant yeast available... I've been thinking about this and I think the trick might be to start with regular cider and then make some super concentrated apple juice to add during fermentation, keeping the SG around 1.015 until the yeast poop out.... thoughts?

I'm gonna experiment with boiling a gallon of store bought cider and see just what happens to the flavor/color.

shafferpilot said:

And THAT is why I want the lowest alcohol tolerant yeast available... I've been thinking about this and I think the trick might be to start with regular cider and then make some super concentrated apple juice to add during fermentation, keeping the SG around 1.015 until the yeast poop out.... thoughts?

I'm gonna experiment with boiling a gallon of store bought cider and see just what happens to the flavor/color.

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That'll work, but even the lowest alcohol tolerant strains will easily go up past 12% with apple juice. Yeast LOVE apples and it'll ferment as easily as a simple sugar. Then you'd have a super "hot" apple wine that will take a couple of years to mellow! I make apple wine at about 12.5%, but I boost the fermentables with regular sugar. My apples tend to be 1.040-1.050 without the sugar added.

Any specific strain come to mind Yoop?

shafferpilot said:

Any specific strain come to mind Yoop?

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Not really. I have found that ale yeast strains really don't attenuate less than wine strains with apples, although you may retain some more fruitiness with some of the ale strains. There is a wine yeast strain that metabolizes more malic acid than others, leaving the "tartness" of the apples "softer", if that makes sense. It's Norbonne, Lalvin's 71B-1122. Then you don't even risk spontaneous MLF as easily, if my memory serves right. Of course, some cider makers do MLF or at least don't prevent it.

You know what would be best? There is a sticky on "juice and yeast experiments" or something like that. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-juice-yeast-sugar-experiments-83060/

CvilleKevin is far more of a cider expert than I am and even though the thread is long, it'd be worth a read to see his results on the various yeast strains he's used.

Excellent. Thanks for the help

One yeast you might want to consider is Wyeast 4184 Sweet Mead yeast (also known as 3184).

4184 is described as:
"One of two strains for sweet mead making. Leaves 2-3% residual sugar in most mead's. Rich, fruity profile complements fruit-mead fermentation. Use additional nutrients for mead making. Ciders, Cysers, Fruit wines, Ginger ale, Cherry, Raspberry and Peach. "
http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=44

It has an alcohol tolerance of only 11%.
It's flocculation characteristics are said by Wyeast to be medium but I've seen this yeast characterized as high-flocculation before.
In general, using a yeast that has a high flocculation tendency and getting the yeast out of suspension promptly will help preserve more sugars.

If yer going to use 4184/3184, note that it has some definite needs:

Rehydrate the yeast to start with good oxygenation, and then build a starter.
(This is even more the case as 4184 is sensitive to age and any hot or difficult storage conditions ... which can leave you with the task of nursing a dud back to life.)
This yeast needs nutrients - best added in stages.
It does *not* like low pH ... 3.8 or higher is needed ... and you should check the pH often particularly as it gets going to make sure you don't have a pH drop and stall. This is a bigger thing with honey as some types of honey are highly buffered ... but you still need to stay on top of it ... I'd say testing 3 times a day for the first 3 or 4 days of fermentation. ... This yeast stalls.
For what it's worth, it doesn't like extremely high sugar conditions ... not a problem in cider but if you were doing a mead, the honey is sometime added to the must over time.
Also, this is a slow long ferment yeast. Correct temperature. Patience.

Nottingham and Windsor both have high flocculation characteristics too and an alcohol tolerance range of about 12% to 15%.

Cold crashing when your must gets toward your desired sweetness will help settle things down and help get the yeast out of suspension too.

Hope this helps.

I'll check that yeast out. Thanks.... BTW, Nottingham can tolerate a heck of a lot more than 15%... I've had it up to just shy of 20% before.

Yooper said:

There is a wine yeast strain that metabolizes more malic acid than others, leaving the "tartness" of the apples "softer", if that makes sense. It's Norbonne, Lalvin's 71B-1122. Then you don't even risk spontaneous MLF as easily, if my memory serves right.

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My experience with 71B is that it took out too much malic acid and made my cider taste watery.

Also, from the 71B spec sheet: "Facilitates malolactic fermentation".

no one has mentioned wild yeasts? really?
its a gamble, i know, but the wild yeasts generally have a lower tolerance than commercial varieties. it's a worth a shot.
it will take longer to ferment than regular strains and you run various risks, but observe proper sanitation in all other aspects, and the odds are in your favor.

smyrnaquince said:

Also, from the 71B spec sheet: "Facilitates malolactic fermentation".

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i use lalvin use all the time and i really like it. their spec sheets are poop though.

Some wild yeasts also chew through everything and anything. I don't think that the amount of juice that would be used justifies a random chance for a good-tasting, low alcohol tolerance yeast.

The experiment has started. Here's the plan: Start with 3 gallons of regular cider in a primary and get the yeast going. Then feed it concentrated/cooked cider keeping the gravity around 1.020 till the yeast poops out, or I start running out of room and switch to adding corn sugar.

My first concern was what would happen to cider when it gets boiled in the concentration stage? Check it out:


Here's just a gallon of fresh cider.


It measures right around 1.052 SG


Time to boil as much water out as I can without scorching it and see what happens

I would have stuck with the ice cider approach. There is a lot of documentation out there about it (BYO recently did an article). Especially being in OH, you'd only need to wait a few months and you could have the weather freeze it for you.

Either way, I'm interested in hearing the results.

After about 2 hours it looks like this. I don't know why I didn't think of this, but it actually resulted in a taste and smell exactly like baked apple... duh! This could be the making of some seriously awesome apple pie flavored goodness!


FG reading 1.118 and it's still well over 100F...


Concentrated Cider. I found one other interesting thing... As it cooled, it formed a cold break just like wort. I'll put all the dregs into the fermenter and let them settle out along with the normal cider dregs and yeast. It's gonna take a lot of cider to pull this off, but I'm hoping to find something a little different than we're used to at the other end

Ace_Club said:

I would have stuck with the ice cider approach. There is a lot of documentation out there about it (BYO recently did an article).

Either way, I'm interested in hearing the results.

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I know there's lots of info on that... 'cause it's already been done a lot...

At least I have your interest

Started the actual batch for real today. 6 gallons of cider boiled down to about 3 gallons. Added one tablespoon of apple pie spice for the last hour of boil. added one gallon of uncooked cider to the fermenter to give it back some of that fresh cider smell and flavor. Once it gets going, I will likely add some more fresh cider and maybe some frozen apple juice concentrate to re-sweeten when I keg it in late December. I have a New Years Eve party that'll be the unveiling.