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musclebrew

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do you really need more then 4ft of beer line for dispensing,i have heard 6ft is better!!
 
Completely depends on your system and how it's set up. I have 10 foot lines for my kegs. I also find that if my CO2 pressure goes above 14psi, I get a LOT of foam. Keeping it under 14psi and it dispenses well.

There are calculators out there to figure out your beer line length. OR you can simply go with the rule of thumb many of us follow... 1 foot of beer line per 1 psi of CO2 pressure your kegs will be under. You can go above, and below, the pressure at the same beer line length. IME, worst that will happen is the pour will be a little slower. I'm patient when it comes to these things, so I don't mind spending a few more seconds per pint if it means I won't get a glass full (or half glass) of foam.
 
1' of 3/16" I.D. vinyl tubing provides 2.5Lb to 3Lb of restriction to beer flow.
Each vertical foot that your faucet is above the centre of your keg acounts for 0.5Lb of restriction to beer flow.

So lets assume that you are dispensing your beer at 14 PSI of 100% CO2 to achieve or maintain your desired carbonation level (this is dependent on your dispense temperature and desired carbonation level)

Lets also assume that your faucet is 4' above the bottom of your fridge. Your keg is approximately 22" high so the faucet is about 3' above the centre of your keg...

0.5 x 3 = 1.5Lb restriction due to gravity.

14PSI (counterpressure) - 1.5PSI (gravity loss) = 12.5 PSI (required choke resistance)

12.5PSI / 2.75PSI per foot = 4' 7" of 3/16" I.D. vinyl tubing
 
Musclebrew and Golddiggie are each talking about different types of tubing.

Musclebrew is refering to 3/16" I.D. whereas Goldiggie is talking about 1/4" I.D.

Industry standard for tubing on direct draw, or very short run systems is 3/16" I.D. vinyl tubing for lengths up to about 5' (max 6').

When line runs exceeding 5' in length are necessary a larger diameter tubing is used for a portion of the run and 3/16" tubing length can be calculated for the last section to achieve required system balance.
 
Ok im running 5' lines right now with no issues,i have seen some guys run 10' lines.Just looking for some input THANKS MAN!
 
Musclebrew and Golddiggie are each talking about different types of tubing.

Musclebrew is refering to 3/16" I.D. whereas Goldiggie is talking about 1/4" I.D.

WRONG... I AM talking about 3/16" ID beer line... It's all I EVER use for beer serving lines. Before you assume you know what you're talking about, confirm it.
 
This is not something you should willy nilly choose. There are formulas for a reason and they are pretty simple ones (as you see above). Size them for your ID and output and you will have no dispensing problems.
 
I use 15' of 3/16" tubing. The lines are refrigerated and the top of the kegs are at tap level. I serve at 42° @ 12psi. The formulas did not help me at all in setting up. I was so frustrated with the formulas that I bought long lines and was going to chop a foot off at at time till I found a reasonable length. YMMV
 
It sounds like your kegs are overpressured. Do you monitor the pressure level in each keg? I've often found my beer continues to ferment in the freezer - at least to some degree. I've had some instances even where I set pressure say 12, and then I come back in the next few days to find it at 25!

I am in your same boat and my lines are 5 ft. The formulas are correct - but only as good as the data given.

Another way of calculating:

(Keg Pressure - 1 psi) / Resistance - 1 psi is a constant for the pressure at the tap by the time it runs through the tubing. Resistance is based on two things: 1) Tubing ID and 2) Tubing Type - different types of tubing provide different resistance.

So an example - if I use PE tubing @ 3/16" ID with a keg pressure of 12psi:

(12 - 1) / 2.2 = 5. I'll need 5 feet of tubing to have 1 psi at the tap.

This assumes little to no elevation change. When you add elevation you naturally lose resistance at the rate of 0.5 psi per foot (as mentioned above). So if my tap is 2 feet above my keg:

(12 - 1 - (2 / 2)) / 2.2 = 4.5. Now I need only 4.5' of tubing.

Hope this helps.
 
Golddiggie said:
Completely depends on your system and how it's set up. I have 10 foot lines for my kegs. I also find that if my CO2 pressure goes above 14psi, I get a LOT of foam. Keeping it under 14psi and it dispenses well.

There are calculators out there to figure out your beer line length. OR you can simply go with the rule of thumb many of us follow... 1 foot of beer line per 1 psi of CO2 pressure your kegs will be under. You can go above, and below, the pressure at the same beer line length. IME, worst that will happen is the pour will be a little slower. I'm patient when it comes to these things, so I don't mind spending a few more seconds per pint if it means I won't get a glass full (or half glass) of foam.

I thought that "rule of thumb" was 2 psi per foot of tubing. Maybe I've got different thumbs.
 
That's not a rule of thumb I'd follow. Sounds like a waste of tubing and cleaner. There are formulas for a reason! And simple ones at that.
 
It sounds like your kegs are overpressured. Do you monitor the pressure level in each keg?

This is actually my greatest problem. I have a cheap, disappointing regulator that came with my kegging starter kit. The tank pressure gage stopped working a year ago, and I have very little confidence in the pressure readout to the tanks. I have a monitor that I got from Williams out in California that is an awesome little tool. Truth is I need a better quality regulator.

Side note: it is why I've been telling new people that want to get into the hobby to NOT buy starter kits. Most of the equipment is garbage. I really don't want to name the company I got it from as that are on this forum and I no longer use them, but everything I got from them I had replaced within 6 brews. Except obviously the regulator which is my own fault as my own ignorance kept me from realizing its probably my problem for all these years.
 
One thing I'll note is that pressure readout is certainly not going to be representative of pressure in each tank if say you have 4 on the same run. You could have one at 12, one at 25, one at 15 and so on. It's more like the average pressure. You really have to have a gauge at every keg to really get an accurate picture.
 
jcaudill said:
That's not a rule of thumb I'd follow. Sounds like a waste of tubing and cleaner. There are formulas for a reason! And simple ones at that.

2 psi per foot of tubing is a variable in an equation, or don't you see that.
 
jcaudill said:
One thing I'll note is that pressure readout is certainly not going to be representative of pressure in each tank if say you have 4 on the same run. You could have one at 12, one at 25, one at 15 and so on. It's more like the average pressure. You really have to have a gauge at every keg to really get an accurate picture.

How do you explain this phenomenon?
 
How do you explain this phenomenon?

Actually I call BS on myself here. That was a 5am reply.

Here's a better comment:

A keg still fermenting will continue to drive up pressure across the run. So that can account for primary regulator inaccuracy sometimes. I've had lagers that were still going 2 months later.
 
jcaudill said:
That's not a rule of thumb I'd follow. Sounds like a waste of tubing and cleaner. There are formulas for a reason! And simple ones at that.

Sorry. I mistook this as arrogant. Moving on.

So, 1 psi per foot of tubing is the constant that I should be using?
 
No it was intended as a serious reply. Even though I'm wrong sometimes I really do try to help :)

So: no you can't ballpark it like that because keg pressure, tubing ID, tubing material and vertical change all impact this. We could rule of thumb given say 3/16" ID PE tubing at 0 vertical change with 1 psi overpressure is about 1 foot per 2.4psi. (Resistance of PE tubing at this ID is 2.2psi per foot)
 
That's not a rule of thumb I'd follow. Sounds like a waste of tubing and cleaner. There are formulas for a reason! And simple ones at that.

It's not really a waste of anything. That's a negligible difference in cleaner usage (what, a few mL?) and the extra tubing is being used to balance the pressure. If saving a couple bucks on tubing is more important to you than properly dispensing beer that you've worked hard to make, then that's fine. But there have probably been hundreds of posts on here confirming that 5' of 3/16" beer line is simply not enough, and probably 95% of problems with continuous foam go away when a 10 foot line is swapped in.

The formulas are based off a lot of assumptions that are simply not relevant for home kegerators. The resistance of beer through tubing (psi/foot) is highly dependent on both temperature and flow rate. If you're serving a keg at 34 degrees and you need to pour a pint very quickly (commercial scenario), the calculators are good.

If you prefer your beer closer to drinking temperature (~40 degrees) and pour rate doesn't matter, the calculators are now irrelevant. You have to go off the empirical data from the hundreds (thousands?) of us that have gone through this already.

I'd say most of us here have 8-12 feet of 3/16" tubing per line. I have 20 feet of 3/16" barrier per line. Indeed, the general rule is 1-2 psi drop per foot of tubing. It's better to err on the long side and assume 1 psi/foot. It's been said many times on here, but the only downside of longer tubing is a slightly slower pour.

Since most of us don't run a bar, and our bottom line isn't a function of the number of beers we can pour in an hour, it's well worth the flexibility to have longer tubing and be able serve a wide range of carbonation levels.

And yes, you certainly can ballpark it. Are you going to remove tubing because you want to serve an English ale with a lower carb level? Or add tubing when you serve a saison? Just leave the tubing longer than it needs to be and wait the extra 10 seconds to drink a beer.
 
You can also use the restriction type faucets. I use the Perlick restriction faucets in my long line glycol cooled system so I don't need to change chokers with different beers. But I have a vertical run of 12' and use beer pumps to overcome that.
 
There are a couple of other points that bear repeating here. One is if you use "barrier" type of tubing. It seems like you need far more of that then the calculators say.

Another point is that it's not scientific, but anecdotal with the experiences we're sharing with line lengths. It's probably true that in a perfect environment, you'd need xxx feet of tubing due to the height, drop, etc. But most of us have cold spots and warm spots in our kegerators, warmer faucets than kegs, possibly a tower, etc.

I started with 6' lines. It was a little foamy, so I went to 8' lines. Ok, much of the time, but not always. Then I went to 10' lines. It was better, as long as I didn't go over 12 psi at 39 degrees. Because of that experience, I'd simply recommend going longer. You can always cut them shorter, but you can't cut them longer!

If the line is "too long", the worst thing that can happen is it takes 2-3 seconds longer to pour a beer. If the line is too short, foaming and having bad pours is a reality. Faced with those two scenarios, I would go with longer lines to begin with.
 
Yooper said:
There are a couple of other points that bear repeating here. One is if you use "barrier" type of tubing. It seems like you need far more of that then the calculators say.

Another point is that it's not scientific, but anecdotal with the experiences we're sharing with line lengths. It's probably true that in a perfect environment, you'd need xxx feet of tubing due to the height, drop, etc. But most of us have cold spots and warm spots in our kegerators, warmer faucets than kegs, possibly a tower, etc.

I started with 6' lines. It was a little foamy, so I went to 8' lines. Ok, much of the time, but not always. Then I went to 10' lines. It was better, as long as I didn't go over 12 psi at 39 degrees. Because of that experience, I'd simply recommend going longer. You can always cut them shorter, but you can't cut them longer!

If the line is "too long", the worst thing that can happen is it takes 2-3 seconds longer to pour a beer. If the line is too short, foaming and having bad pours is a reality. Faced with those two scenarios, I would go with longer lines to begin with.

I am all for anecdotal, but can someone explain this to me. I am set at 38F with 16 psi and 5 foot lines, and I have a perfect pour every time. I will accept that the laws of physics do not exist here in ME.

I mean no disrespect to you Yooper as I hold you in high regard.
 
I am all for anecdotal, but can someone explain this to me. I am set at 38F with 16 psi and 5 foot lines, and I have a perfect pour every time. I will accept that the laws of physics do not exist here in ME.

I mean no disrespect to you Yooper as I hold you in high regard.

Let the ridicule begin.

First - if you keep your lines cold temperature has little to no bearing here. You'll get initial foaming as soon as cold beer hits your warm tap but once the tap cools everything will be fine. If your keezer is really that sensitive then you really need to put a fan n it. But I just can't see it.

The most important factors are keg pressure and restriction. A significant amount of overpressure whether by short tubing, larger diameter tubing or improper regulator setting will result in CO2 trying to escape and hence - foaming.

If your line is too long - your beer flow is slow or could even come to a complete stop. You'll have to account for this by increasing pressure at your regulator. So all you've done in the end is waste tubing and gas to account for the loss of pressure. I don't care if it's 1' or 5'. It's a waste and eventually it adds up.

My suspicion is based on your comment, your line length and keg pressure create the right amount of overpressure at the tap to have a "perfect pour". That's all there is to it.

I would implore anyone who thinks their problem is solved by increasing line length to take a closer look at their setup and try to figure out the cause of the problem instead of putting a band-aid on it. Do you in fact have higher keg pressure than you thought? Do you have a vertical rise or descent you didn't account for? Do you have a different tubing material or ID? Is your regulator actually working right? More than likely, there is a reasonable explanation. This isn't some willy nilly formula. It's what pretty much every brewery, commercial and homebrewer alike use to figure out draft runs. And magically - it's what my keezer uses and works like a charm. 12 psi, PE tubing, 3/16" ID, no vertical change, 5'. I had issues last month - found out my keg was super over-pressured. Bled it down to 12 psi and voila - everything was fine.

So if you want to accommodate varying line pressures ok - this changes things a bit. Then you're going to have to have longer lines and sacrifice a bit. Or, have many secondary regs that have the right tubing length attached.

My problem with making blanket rule of thumb statements is that everyone coming on here, reads them and just uses them without understanding the science behind it. Someone will come by this thread wth 1/2" ID tubing and then use 2psi per foot as a rule and then it'll be nothing but problems.
 
Old kegerator has 5' lines. Pours too fast and foamy. New kegerator has 10' lines. Pours a little slow for my liking, but head is created by a proper pour in into the glass providing a good looking beer.

8' would probably work best.

I'd agree with the approach of - get longer lines and shorten them to your liking. Easier to take tubing away than to magically make it longer. Charts and math can't predict your personal preference.
 
WRONG... I AM talking about 3/16" ID beer line... It's all I EVER use for beer serving lines. Before you assume you know what you're talking about, confirm it.

My apologies. It is common for homebrewers to use 1/4"I.D. tubing since that is the typical diameter of the barbed fittings on cornelius keg quick disconnects. I see it all the time.

What is your dispense temperature and carbonation level? 10' of 3/16" tubing with 0' of rise would balance at over 25PSI dispense pressure for a pour speed of 1.8 to 2 oz. per second, but that pressure would seriously over-carbonate your beer at 38 deg. F.

However at about 64F or 65F 25 PSI will yield a carbonation level of about 2.5 v/v.

BTW. the formulas DO work.
I am a draught beer system installer with over 1000 installs under my belt over the course of the last 8 years. If you have foaming problems with 10' of restriction tubing on your system then there is another problem. Send me a P.M. and I would be happy to help you sort it out. If the solution is something of value we can post it on the forum.
 
I install draft systems for Budweiser and 5ft of 3/16 line is perfect for beer pouring at 36-40 degrees at 12 psi. More or less and the system will begin to become unbalanced.
 
As Yooper said, time and time again the calculators have proven irrelevant for most homebrewers. And there is in fact very good scientific reason behind why the calculations don't apply in our case, as I explained above.

As a chemical engineer I have textbooks on momentum transport and fluid flow... there's plenty of theory presented, yet many of the correlations and equations are built up using empirical/anecdotal data. If 5' works fine for your system, then that's awesome. But I'll repeat that for the many many people posting on this forum that have continuous foaming problems, increasing the line length closer to 10 feet (or even higher) fixes the problem in almost every case. The "blanket statement" of 1-2 psi per foot only applies to 3/16" ID, non-barrier PVC tubing, which is what most people use.

My problem with making blanket rule of thumb statements is that everyone coming on here, reads them and just uses them without understanding the science behind it. Someone will come by this thread wth 1/2" ID tubing and then use 2psi per foot as a rule and then it'll be nothing but problems.

Nobody's ridiculing you, relax. Like I've said, these "blanket statements" are what save most people from foamy pours as a result of using the 5' of tubing that came with their system or using the 2.8' (or whatever) that the calculators give them. Lurk around the bottling/kegging subforum for a while and you'll see what I mean.


I really don't see how it's a band-aid. And again, I don't see how it's wasteful. It works for almost everyone on here, and it's a couple extra dollars in tubing.
 
Let the ridicule begin.

First - if you keep your lines cold temperature has little to no bearing here. You'll get initial foaming as soon as cold beer hits your warm tap but once the tap cools everything will be fine. If your keezer is really that sensitive then you really need to put a fan n it. But I just can't see it.

The most important factors are keg pressure and restriction. A significant amount of overpressure whether by short tubing, larger diameter tubing or improper regulator setting will result in CO2 trying to escape and hence - foaming.

If your line is too long - your beer flow is slow or could even come to a complete stop. You'll have to account for this by increasing pressure at your regulator. So all you've done in the end is waste tubing and gas to account for the loss of pressure. I don't care if it's 1' or 5'. It's a waste and eventually it adds up.

My suspicion is based on your comment, your line length and keg pressure create the right amount of overpressure at the tap to have a "perfect pour". That's all there is to it.

I would implore anyone who thinks their problem is solved by increasing line length to take a closer look at their setup and try to figure out the cause of the problem instead of putting a band-aid on it. Do you in fact have higher keg pressure than you thought? Do you have a vertical rise or descent you didn't account for? Do you have a different tubing material or ID? Is your regulator actually working right? More than likely, there is a reasonable explanation. This isn't some willy nilly formula. It's what pretty much every brewery, commercial and homebrewer alike use to figure out draft runs. And magically - it's what my keezer uses and works like a charm. 12 psi, PE tubing, 3/16" ID, no vertical change, 5'. I had issues last month - found out my keg was super over-pressured. Bled it down to 12 psi and voila - everything was fine.

So if you want to accommodate varying line pressures ok - this changes things a bit. Then you're going to have to have longer lines and sacrifice a bit. Or, have many secondary regs that have the right tubing length attached.

My problem with making blanket rule of thumb statements is that everyone coming on here, reads them and just uses them without understanding the science behind it. Someone will come by this thread wth 1/2" ID tubing and then use 2psi per foot as a rule and then it'll be nothing but problems.

I agree with these points.
 
The typical beer runs between 2.2 and 2.8 volumes of co2. There are exceptions- Belgian beers are generally higher while American stouts are generally lower. The general rule of thumb would be 14 psi with 5ft line to have a balanced system. Yes there are times when longer/shorter lines would be ideal along with different pressures but unless you plan to change this with every beer you put on draft then the above is the most proven method. Also location matters ie. if you are located closer to sea level or in Denver. I like to use 12psi as most of my beers have a little less volumes of co2 and keep 5ft of micromatic 3/16 vinyl line.
 
I have 5ft lines with 3/16 tubing dispensing at 10psi@36 degrees am I over carbing the beer?
 
musclebrew said:
I have 5ft lines with 3/16 tubing dispensing at 10psi@36 degrees am I over carbing the beer?

If anything you're pressure is too low but a lot of that depends on your volumes of co2 in whichever beer you brewed. However even Budweiser, as temperamental as it is will pour half way decent at this pressure... And most craft beers require less volumes of co2 then an American lager which is relatively high.
 
I have 5ft lines with 3/16 tubing dispensing at 10psi@36 degrees am I over carbing the beer?

At sea level 36F @ 10PSI you would net 2.5v/v

A thing to keep in mind is that your regulator guage is going to show pressure over ambient. Therefore at sea level with an ambient pressure of 14.6PSI and a regulator PSIG (guage pressure) of 10PSI your "absolute pressure" in your keg is 24.6PSI (absolute pressure is the pressure over total vacumn. PSIG is guage pressure over ambient)

At higher elevations the ambient pressure is lower so a correction is required on your PSIG to achieve the required absolute pressure for your target carbonation level.

If we apply the previous example of 36F and 10PSI in Denver then you would have a lower absolute pressure since ambient would be lower and consequently your carbonation would only be about 2.2v/v

BTW. this is also very temperature related. at 0' elevation, @ 10PSIG, and going from 36F to 38F your carbonation drops from 2.5v/v to 2.4v/v. Or put another way... if you carbonate at 10PSIG at 36F but try and serve at 38F with 10PSIG you will theoretically get foam due to 'breakout' as that difference of 0.1v/v tries to escape from your beer (this is a very minor difference, so it would probably be manageable). This is why warm beer foams.
A higher pressure would be required at the warmer temperature to keep the dissolved gas in the beer, and consequently a longer piece of restriction/choke line would be required to balance the pressure and control the rate of your pour.
 
1 brewed a red irish ale last week and kegged it,When i poured my first glass i had a really nice head, but had some larger bubbles on top of the head, thought maybe i had a little to much co2 on it.
 
An Irish red ale generally is 2.2-2.6 volumes of co2 so to be to style you should have a median volume of 2.3 and to maintain that in your draft system at 36 degrees you should have a keg pressure of 8.2. In order for you to pour 2 ounces per second you'll need maybe about 2 and a half feet of 3/16 vinyl line. I didn't do the math- this is an estimate... But then your next beer will most likely be different and the next and the next. This gets exhausting find a middle ground and stick with it.
 
An Irish red ale generally is 2.2-2.6 volumes of co2 so to be to style you should have a median volume of 2.3 and to maintain that in your draft system at 36 degrees you should have a keg pressure of 8.2. In order for you to pour 2 ounces per second you'll need maybe about 2 and a half feet of 3/16 vinyl line. I didn't do the math- this is an estimate... But then your next beer will most likely be different and the next and the next. This gets exhausting find a middle ground and stick with it.

I think that beer would be better warmer. My laundry room sits at around 54F so I would be keeping it out of the fridge and pressurizing at 18PSIG for 2.3v/v with just over 6' of restriction
 
schroeder said:
I think that beer would be better warmer. My laundry room sits at around 54F so I would be keeping it out of the fridge and pressurizing at 18PSIG for 2.3v/v with just over 6' of restriction

If you mean that beer would taste better warmer... I think most breweries/ brewers agree that the best temps for serving beer are between 38 and 48 degrees. Lighter American style lagers being closer to 38 while I personally like most full flavored beers to be served around 43-45. Big High alcohol beers are best served around 55 but much of this is personal preference.
 
If you mean that beer would taste better warmer... I think most breweries/ brewers agree that the best temps for serving beer are between 38 and 48 degrees. Lighter American style lagers being closer to 38 while I personally like most full flavored beers to be served around 43-45. Big High alcohol beers are best served around 55 but much of this is personal preference.

I have had to set up some dispense systems at brewpubs that share this philosophy. We would employ 2 glycol systems each set at a different temperature and run the lagers and wheat ales at a colder temperature than the ales.The most challenging part of this was having the seasonal beers being able to be switched between the cold and warm trunklines but still come out of the same faucet at the bar. Brewers can be so demanding :p
 
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