Dunkelweizen....ugh!

so...Almost 2 weeks ago (Sunday will be 2 weeks), I brewed a dunkelweizen. From JZ's book, "Brewing classic styles". I had my first and only example of a dunkelweizen from Fish Brewing out of Olympia, WA. Liked. Wanted to brew it. Ferment temp. was supposed to be 62 degrees F. Basement was around that temp. Rougly 60 - 65. I fermented down there for about 4 days. Then it got to 60. Kreusen was huge compared to other beers I've done. Kreusen stayed for the full 4 days. Since slowed considerably, I think I got dumb and worried. Didn't see nothing. Timed the airlock movement. Looked for activity in beer in glass carboy. Moved it upstairs where about 68 - 70 degrees F. Dunkelweizen is supposed to be nice balance of flavors right? Well, it's been 11 days since brewed. Very slow activity in beer, ~ 20 seconds between bubbles in airlock. I used Wyeast Weihenstephan strain (or is it Weiheinstephan??). Supposed to be some clove and banana right?? I finally did a gravity reading, and drank the sample or rather part of the sample. I dont' know!!! I get a lot of the banana. Or rather, reminds me of like those Runts candies. The banana shaped one! Jeez. usually, I eagerly suck down a sample of the gravity reading. I took 2 or 3 sips. Dumped it out. Put it back down into basement. No way to control templ other than running upstairs to 68 - 75 degrees or in basement where it MIGHT get to 72 if I have a fire in basement.

My only thought....Brew another batch. Keep it in basement. It turns out no too fond of this flavor. I get no clove. Now it's driving me to get it right. So thought is, get it basement again. (Like I said, still activity in air lock, yeasties moving around in beer. Might tame it down a bit.) Wait another week. Tempted to bottle it anyway. Make another batch to get it right.

let me hear some thoughts please

Weihenstphaner has a lot of banana character. Probably one of the worst ones if you dont like that flavor I think. Colder can only keep those esters away so much. For a more neutral strain try WLP 380. It says it is phenolic strong but I think it is more balanced.

Waaaay to early to toss it. The banana smell fades a bit with time. Give it time.

The banana tends to be more prominent before carbonation but the clove should come out more after the beer has aged a few more days and then goes through bottle conditioning.

One thing that will promote banana over clove is underpitching so even though you fermented very cool you can still get a lot of banana from stressing the yeast.

I went to Mr. Malty to determine pitching rate. Based on date on smack pack. It was 6 months old. I figured it'd still be good. But it called for something like 3 L starter. I got 1.061 OG, and not the OG out of Jamil's recipe book. My thoughts were, "Okay. Maybe hefe's and dunkelweizen's are supposed to be this way and all the examples I've had are not representative of the style." Final thought was to just stick it in basement at 60-62 for another week in carboy. Bottle it anyways. and I thought the same thing. Carbonation changes things a little and I figure time might improve it. If not....Well.

It's 2nd time doing all-grain and just trying to get my system dialed in. It looks like it's towards end of fermentation anyways. 1.019

Don't dump it! That strain will clean up quite a bit given time. I like it after it's sat in bottles for a month or so. Try it then and see if you like it.

StusBrew said:

The banana shaped one! Jeez.

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This made me LOL.

bknifefight said:

This made me LOL.

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Yeah. Probably didn't help that because of Thanksgiving, was imbibing. Now that you pointed that out. It is kind of funny.

Thanks everybody. Now very curious though. I made a witbier for first all-grain a little less than a year ago. used a dry yeast strain. Got tired of the wheatafter a while. But my curiosity is piqued now. My next batch I want to do a roggenbier. Mostly because I bought the smack pack for this duneklweizen, and recipe calls for same strain. So I had top-cropped, and washed and is now waiting in fridge for next batch.
But now I want to try another dunkelweizen, but keep it in basement around 60 - 62 for the entire time and see if helps. Then maybe a 3rd dunkelweizen, but use Wyeast's strain. But not so sure. I'd have to do 2 brews in a day or something, because I really don't want to drink exclusively wheat beers.

62-64 is the sweet spot for wlp380, which I'll be using tomorrow in my dunkelweizen hopefully. That makes a very balanced beer. Do a 15-20 rest at 113F if you really want more clove and less banana, otherwise it's nicely balanced between the two.

so what kind of room (ambient) temperature should a person aim for to get it to ferment in this ideal range i can never seem to get the room temp right because everyday the fermentation temps jump so much even at a steady room temp.
and i can't seem to hit the perfect temps.
i am going to try a water filled container with a fish tank heater to try and keep a more consistent temp. ( i am in north canada so temps are a lower here.)

i also read someone on here found that the temps of the water and the temps of the beer where relative to within a degree or so. as opposed to the 10 or so degree difference of the ambient air and the fermentation temps?

Yep most folks use a water bath to stabilize the temps of the beer. I've used an aquarium heater before, but since I'm in Florida, I rarely have to pull that one out

I brewed a Dunkelweizen a couple of weeks ago with the same yeast. I kept the beer temp at 64 for four days then ramped it up 1 or 2 degrees a day until 70. I got a very balanced banana and clove profile, with nothing over the top. The flavor profile of the beer is mostly set in the first 72 hours of fermentation, so warming it up after 4+ days should not have caused a problem.
My guess is that you had a very vigorous fermentation in a 60-62 ambient space, which could mean that the beer temperature was at 70+.

I agree with LKA. Also, with this yeast I find that it's good to pitch below the eventual temp and bring it up slowly, rather than pitching right at temp. The yeast take a little longer to kick into action, but I've never had an issue with a lagged start allowing infection as people claim.

The advantage of starting cool is that the yeast don't get supercharged out of the gate, which is what causes the production of all those strongly fruity esters. I pitch my yeast at 60F, then put the fermenter in my refrigerator set to 64F for 12 hours. After that I turn the refrigerator down to between 60F and 62F, depending on whether or not there's visible yeast activity. Once full fermentation sets in I turn it down to 60F. That way the yeast start out with a nice cool temp, do the main sugar conversion without creating a lot of fruitiness, and then I warm slowly after 72 hours or so, to allow some ester production on the back end. This gives me a nice even flavor profile.

With this method my yeast don't hit top gear until 24-36 hours after pitching, but it doesn't bother me, and I've really enjoyed the results I've produced with it.

12 days.......while interestingly titled and eloquently worded, this is just another "IS MY BEER RUINED???" thread.

My advice? Quit tasting samples. NOTHING godd can come of it. Carbonation changes beer SO much. So does another 2 weeks of fermentation.

Nicely done thread, but it is screaming NOOB at me.

That's great cheezydemon3. NOOB or whatever. Maybe it is. But in my mind, I was just thinking "give it time, fermentation is still happening. 1st time with this yeast."

Thanks for all the help everybody though. It was encouraging (minus the NOOB part). Did another check of gravity last night (Tuesday). Gravity dropped some more. Dramatically less activity. Probably check it again on Saturday or Sunday. TASTED the sample after reading. Still got the banana aroma, but much milder. There was banana, but immediately got some clove as well. Tasted pretty decent, and can't wait to get it carbonated and in bottles.

Going to to roggenbier next with same yeast. It's pretty cool seing the profile change throughout the process. Still get a kick.

Look, next time you sample a 12 day old wort, save us the trouble and just post "Is my beer ruined????"

I like your style and enthusiasm, but you brewed one of the most unique brews possible (which I admire) but tasted it 12 days in and post a thread about it not tasting right, lol.
All I have learned from sampling green beer is not to.

Another reason cheezydemon3 is right is that for quite a few yeast strains (wheat beers and lagers especially), you can get some nasty sulfur while the beer is green. This flavor drops out totally with some age, but it can be very discouraging to folks not prepared for this.

For the ultimate sulfur bomb, brew a straight cider and stick your head in the bucket after 5 days. PWHEW! Rhino farts!

ghpeel said:

Another reason cheezydemon3 is right is that for quite a few yeast strains (wheat beers and lagers especially), you can get some nasty sulfur while the beer is green. This flavor drops out totally with some age, but it can be very discouraging to folks not prepared for this.

For the ultimate sulfur bomb, brew a straight cider and stick your head in the bucket after 5 days. PWHEW! Rhino farts!

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Thank you. I am not mad, just want all brewers to realize that many beers taste like dirty goat water after 12 days and end up amazingly good.

If we all posted threads at 12 days worrying about the taste, this site would be choked with them.

cheezydemon3 said:

...that many beers taste like dirty goat water ...

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Why that just happens to be the perfect flavor profile for my next lambic! Yum!

ghpeel said:

Why that just happens to be the perfect flavor profile for my next lambic! Yum!

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Thought I was the only one! My "Nasty Old Goat" Lambic was unique to say the least!

cheezydemon3 and ghpeel, thanks. I realize that. I've brewed enough to realize that the wort, before bottling and carbonating, is way different. The whole thread was to get an affirmation on the whole banana thing going away! My only concern is: Growing up, I was a very picky eater. Bananas and peanut butter and honey sandwiches. Now a father of 2 and married and career, my taste buds have grown along with it. But I use to scarf down bananas and I can't stand even peeling a banana for my daughter.

But thanks for "Calming" me though. Took gravity reading yesterday and it hasn't changed since Tuesday,11/27. So going to bottle it today.

The reason for the "freakin'" was I want to harvest this yeast strain, and next make a roggenbier, then possibly a weizenbock after that. So, it'll also give me the opportunity to play with the yeast strain.

By the way, what's the limit of # of volumes for glass 12 oz. bottles?? Seems to me not higher than 4 volumes or is it 3 volumes??

You have my complete confidence. Experience is what makes a great brewer, and you just gained a good bit!

The fact that you brewed a dunkelweisen, but deemed the sample too fruity is awesome!!

High standards also make great brewer. Just be realistic

I wouldn't go too far above 3 volumes. If you've got thicker (e.g. Grolsch) bottles you might be able to go a bit higher.

Yeah. Went to TastyBrew.com to look at styles and bottle priming. They went to lik 3.6 volumes - over 4 and was trying to remember if regular 12 oz. limit were 3 volumes. I went 3 volumes. Thanks for all the input. Always had confidence in what I've brewed and went for it in the dunkelweizen without tasting a representative of the style to gauge how I did. I'm now thinking the one I tried at Fish Brewing in Olympia was brewed with a different yeast strain.

Why do you want to overcarb it?

Overcarb it? I would think 3 volumes would not overcarb anything. Besides, these wheat beer styles are typically (historically ??) light-bodied, refreshing, "spritzy" or whatever. Besides, I have a lot of interest in brewing different styles. It's crazy and want to do it al right now, but I do need to talk to my wife, show her attention, etc. and oh yeah the kids.
But anyway, just trying to brew sltyles I've tried and liked to get an idea of what goes into that beer.
If I had strong enough bottles, I'd probably go 3.5 volumes. But we'll see with the 3 volumes.

So I was curious about what ghpeel stated earlier on page 1 of this thread. About a 15-20 minute rest at 113 degrees F. ghpeel mentioned that and I then remembered some podcast or article I saw, jeez, can't remembe where, but I vaguely remember hearing about some kind of rest for wheat beers to ge a certain flavor. So i did a search to appease myself. It's an acid, ferulic acid derivative. Amount of acid versus unmalted wheat, malted wheat and then malted barley, etc. The paper I saw, and fogive me, some years out of college and lowly bio. tech. who doesn't have to worry about his sources, I didn't record auther, or journal or any of the proper citations. Anyway, looks like not so much during mash, and they were trying to determine if it was the boil that released the derivative of this acid or if it was during fermentation. I was fascinated. More reason I want to do the roggenbier next and this time keep fermentationfrom climbing above 60. Basement is consistent 60 degrees F. Though on weekends when make a fire down there to heat house, it'll get 72 or so. But again probably not similar. Recipe I have for roggenbier doesn't involve wheat so... help me, can't stop!!!!

Yeah, "ferulic acid" rest is the term. The 112F mash temp increases the production of this acid, and in turn the yeast turn ferulic acid into a compound called "4 vinyl-guaiacol" (or "4vg" for short). You have some ferulic acid in the mash regardless of the temp, but that rest greatly increases it.

My best Hefeweizen was 50/50 wheat/light Munich malt, with a 15min rest at 113F before getting bumped up the the normal sach. rest. Fermented kinda cool (63-64F) with WLP380 and it was all clove, no banana, but not so much clove that it was off-putting. Very tasty brew. Tasted the most like a Weihenstephaner Hefe of the ones I've done.

Ahhh, thanks. Glad I did a dunkelweizen, because after brewed my first, I want to go back and try to se that acid rest. See what happens. I have a problem with trying beers, and then wanting to brew that representative style. We'll see what later this year brings. Probably end up doing it again just to be able to compare the 1st dunkelweizen and on with the rest. Thanks.

So the dunkelweizen turned purty. I calculated ~80% attenuation from the yeast. 2nd all-grain batch and figuring out my system. It was Jamil's dunkelweizen recipe from the book and was supposed to be 1.054 or 1.056 or something. I got 1.063-ish. A 6.7 calculated ABV. Not exactly crisp, refreshing, etc. as described in BJCP guidelines. Oh well. Tastes good. Banana is not as dominate. A little clove towards the back. A slight banana aroma. It was 3 weeks in primary, 3 weeks in bottle. Tooo parents house for the Christmas weekend. Mom makes wine. Stepdad drinks whiskey. Not exactly beer drinkers. But they all took sips and commented on it. They said they liked it, but also they're not going back for more! Whatever. A family friend and his dad drink different beers. I had him try it yesterday. He tried a sip. Put the whiskey and Pepsi back and went back for my bottle! So.. Feeling good about it. Liking it. Already thinking I'll have to get back to it another time, but try to do a rest at 120. See what that does with maybe more clove. Thanks for all the help. Got a new CO2 tank and regulator and everything needed to keg my beer next time. Very excited. On way back home was going to stop at LHBS and buy what I needed for roggenbier, but got an extract kit Hefeweizen from True Brew (???). So potentially thinking doing Roggenbier one day (this coming weekend). GEt it fermenting. Top crop a few days later right into freshly made True Brew Hefeweizen. Using the yeast I used for my dunkelweizen. Thanks for all the input people. Used to only doing 2, MAYBE 3 batches a year. Going to try to do a batch a month. After these German wheat/rye beers. I want to get into brewing a german altbier. Cold enough around here.

Dunkelweisen is a wierd beer, "Fruity Pebbles" being a not uncommon descriptor.

I like it, almost because it is so wierd.


I love dark roasted wheat, but it too is considered a wierd flavor by most beer drinkers.

Glad it turned out!

Yes. Definitely a different ale. Definitely not the type of beer you'd sit there and drink 2 or 3 in a row.

StusBrew said:

Yes. Definitely a different ale. Definitely not the type of beer you'd sit there and drink 2 or 3 in a row.

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ALSO not the brew to use to try to convert a BMC drinker!

It is the gift for the beer drinker who has had EVERYTHING!

Glad it turned out.

StusBrew said:

Yes. Definitely a different ale. Definitely not the type of beer you'd sit there and drink 2 or 3 in a row.

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cheezydemon3 said:

ALSO not the brew to use to try to convert a BMC drinker! It is the gift for the beer drinker who has had EVERYTHING!

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Disagree. Well done Dunkelweizens do not really taste like Fruity Pebbles, and are very, very drinkable, like Hefeweizens. The first taste catches some people off guard, but after that, you should be able to drink them all night. If you can't, then that particular batch is too sweet, or maybe too estery. Cut back on the crystal malt and ferment cooler. A lot of BMC drinkers really don't like the hoppiness of Pale Ales or IPAs for all-night drinkers, and can drink a lot more hefe's and dunkel's than those styles.

I have to agree that dunkelweizens shouldn't be hard to drink beers. Not BMC, but not "fruity pebbles" or weird. Try Aventinus, a weizenbock for a good example of a beer that should be harder to drink (~7.5%) and isn't, or have a taste of Hacker-Pschorr dunkelweizen and enjoy a well made one.

I have no problem drinking my dunkelweizen. Problem was, the recipe called for something about 1.056 or something. I ended up higher OG: 1.063-1.064. About 6.7% ABV. And yes. The first drink always kinds of throws you off! Again, haven't tried a dunkelweizen before. I got excited because I tried Fish Brewing's "dunkelweizen" out of Olympia. It was really good, but the recipe I used, doesn't taste anything like what I got! Definitely curious now and did an extract hefeweizen yesterday using harvested yeast from dunkelweizen. then in a few weeks also going to make a roggenbier. I think I need to get a hold of some dunkelweizen's or hefeweizen's or let someone with experience try mine.