100% Brett Cider

I put this is the cider forum, but you guys might be more apt to have had experience with this:

I'm thinking about doing a panel of 100% brett fermented ciders. A few single strains, a few multiple strains, and a few of both with lacto/pedio added.

Here is the list of fermentations I came up with:
1.) 100% Brett B
2.) 100% Brett C
3.) 100% Brett L
4.) 100% Brett Drie
5.) Brett B,C,L
6.) 100% Brett B & LAB
7.) 100% Brett C & LAB
8.) 100% Brett L & LAB
9.) 100% Brett Drie & LAB
10.)Brett B,C,L & LAB

("LAB" is Lactic Acid Bacteria, which is the lacto/pedio)

Let me know if you've done one of these and the results.
Any of these sound particularly exciting?
Any of them sound like trouble?
Any other fermentation ideas?

I'd love to know the results of whichever you choose. I have a cider that I fermented 100% on Jolly Pumpkin dregs I stepped up a few times. I'm letting that sit til October, so I'll let you know then! I'm hoping for some good sour and funk. I added some maltodextrin recently to let them feed away.

Adding maltodextrin is a good idea. These would be absent of saccharo, so I don't think there would be any benefit as all the food will go to the brett already.

i remember a year or two back someone did some experiments on brett cider in the cider forum, did you search there? what are you using for your juice blend (in february)? i'm curious, is there something specific you're looking for, or is this a shotgun approach to characterize what the brett (& friends) strains will do with apple flavors? sorry for the interrogation! good luck

I've been looking for any 100% brett fermentations of cider, but no luck so far. I posted this same thread in Cider forum, but they are generally uneducated when it comes to brett. There is one guy posting on the thread over there that is just plain stupid.

A friend has an apple orchard. He says he can still get cider from pack houses. Not sure what the juice blend will be... I leave that up to him. Not looking for anything specific, just to know what brett does if allowed to ferment cider 100%, and the different flavor/aroma profiles of individual strains in cider. Also what effect LAB has on the brett fermentation, and each individual strain.

I prefer ciders fermented with Brett or Belgian strains over other yeasts. I think they give the cider more character. I've done quite a few of them but only used 2 Brett strains; WLP650 (Brett-B) and some cultured from Ommegang Biere De Mars.

I have a couple that were fermented on a bug mix; currently about a year in and have a big pellicle on them - not tasted yet.

I'm particularly excited about brett c and drie, and think the bacteria sounds like trouble.

Look forward to hearing about this. I was going to try some brett & sour blends last year but didn't end up getting any cider. what are you doing for pitch rates?

georgebe4 said:

I'm particularly excited about brett c and drie, and think the bacteria sounds like trouble.

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Bacteria will be used for the malolactic fermentation (MLF). Apples have a lot of malic acid in them, and so the bacteria will convert some of that to lactic acid, which (as I understand it) is suppose to reduce the perceived sharpness of the apple acidity.

dcp27 said:

Look forward to hearing about this. I was going to try some brett & sour blends last year but didn't end up getting any cider. what are you doing for pitch rates?

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Not sure, probably a smack pack. Depends on where I get the yeast from.

levifunk said:

Not sure, probably a smack pack. Depends on where I get the yeast from.

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Oh, figured you were making starters as that's a lot of yeast to buy to do the full list.

levifunk said:

Bacteria will be used for the malolactic fermentation (MLF). Apples have a lot of malic acid in them, and so the bacteria will convert some of that to lactic acid, which (as I understand it) is suppose to reduce the perceived sharpness of the apple acidity.

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Generally a malolactic culture (Oenococcus oenii) would be used for this.

georgebe4 said:

Generally a malolactic culture (Oenococcus oenii) would be used for this.

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Ah, good to know. Will lacto/pedio not work for this? or is oenococcus just prefered?

levifunk said:

Ah, good to know. Will lacto/pedio not work for this? or is oenococcus just prefered?

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Well, to be clear it is a type of LAB, just not the one you'd get in white labs sour mix, as an example. I've used the one from wyeast before with good results, though I prefer balancing acidity with sugar by keeving whereas you've expressed a preference for a dry cider. Moreover, your premise was to do this as an experiment, and I think you should. Just be sure to report back! I think in particular, with the proper pitching rates and fermentation, the brett strains that tend to throw more fruity esters could yield some very positive results.

Sorry levifunk. I saw your post on the cider side and thought you were just gonna go for it! Reading through the sticky on sugar and yeast experiments the OP stated that he and other brewers were the biggest fans of the sour ciders. In my (unscientific) perspective Brett would be the historical yeast as it is naturally occurring. This is what we did as kids anyway, 99 cents for a gallon of cider stuck in the closet.

So..... I hope you do "go for it", document the he'll outta it, get stickified, and add to the library! Once I turn my barrel over to sours this will be the norm so I can't wait. Until then it's whiskey oakness.

Do it Levi, we got yer back.

georgebe4 said:

Well, to be clear it is a type of LAB, just not the one you'd get in white labs sour mix, as an example. I've used the one from wyeast before with good results, though I prefer balancing acidity with sugar by keeving whereas you've expressed a preference for a dry cider. Moreover, your premise was to do this as an experiment, and I think you should. Just be sure to report back! I think in particular, with the proper pitching rates and fermentation, the brett strains that tend to throw more fruity esters could yield some very positive results.

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Yea, the point of adding the LAB is to achieve a MLF and see how it effects the Brett fermentation and flavor perception. Would it be more appropriate to use oenococcus for this?

levifunk said:

Yea, the point of adding the LAB is to achieve a MLF and see how it effects the Brett fermentation and flavor perception. Would it be more appropriate to use oenococcus for this?

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I think so. One thing I find interesting about that is brett's ability to clean up diacetyl. Not that it produces anything close to pedio, but there is some.

georgebe4 said:

I think so. One thing I find interesting about that is brett's ability to clean up diacetyl. Not that it produces anything close to pedio, but there is some.

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Yea, I think it will change the flavor. Not only should Brett kick off new flavors from eating the diacetyl, but I think reducing the harshness of the acidity will open up and change the brett flavors perceived.

Thanks for the advice.

Subscribed. I'd like to find out how things go.

Yeah, so when are you brewing these, or some of these?

I'm doing this with an orchard, so I'm just waiting until they tell me they have the juice on hand.

I added a starter I made from Crooked Stave's Petit Sour to 15 gallons of my cider this past fall. Tasting great so far. Threw in an oak stave for a home for the bugs into one keg of it. Also did some with Roselare, and then some just wild.

Pieces are coming together and it looks like we'll be doing this over the weekend. Here are the final batches:
1 Brett drie
2 Brett custersianus
3 Brett nanus
4 Brett lambicus
5 Brett bruxellensis
6 Brett anomulus/claussenii
7 Brett fantome
8 Saccharomyces paradoxus
9 Brett Blend
10 Brett Blend and oenococcus
11 Brett Blend with maltodextrin addition.

levifunk said:

Pieces are coming together and it looks like we'll be doing this over the weekend. Here are the final batches:
1 Brett drie
2 Brett custersianus
3 Brett nanus
4 Brett lambicus
5 Brett bruxellensis
6 Brett anomulus/claussenii
7 Brett fantome
8 Saccharomyces paradoxus
9 Brett Blend
10 Brett Blend and oenococcus
11 Brett Blend with maltodextrin addition.

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I'm guessing these are 1 gallon batches? Sounds fun, I look forward to the results later in the year.

I'm curious to hear about your results. I've been considering doing something similar with some of the bottle cultures I've been holding onto (3F, Cantillon, and a Berliner)

todd46 said:

I'm guessing these are 1 gallon batches? Sounds fun, I look forward to the results later in the year.

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3 gallon batches (better bottle).

levifunk said:

Pieces are coming together and it looks like we'll be doing this over the weekend. Here are the final batches:
1 Brett drie
2 Brett custersianus
3 Brett nanus
4 Brett lambicus
5 Brett bruxellensis
6 Brett anomulus/claussenii
7 Brett fantome
8 Saccharomyces paradoxus
9 Brett Blend
10 Brett Blend and oenococcus
11 Brett Blend with maltodextrin addition.

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Awesome experiment man, can't wait to hear more of the results. I'm doing a few 100% Brett pear ciders in a week or two, followed by a Brett "Cyser" on those yeast cakes.

Did you isolate the Brett Fantome yourself? I'd love to know more about whatever is in Fantome, have you had any previous experience brewing with it? Also, what is Saccharomyces paradoxus?

levifunk said:

Pieces are coming together and it looks like we'll be doing this over the weekend. Here are the final batches:
1 Brett drie
2 Brett custersianus
3 Brett nanus
4 Brett lambicus
5 Brett bruxellensis
6 Brett anomulus/claussenii
7 Brett fantome
8 Saccharomyces paradoxus
9 Brett Blend
10 Brett Blend and oenococcus
11 Brett Blend with maltodextrin addition.

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Brett Drie and Brux are the same strain I believe.
Also did you isolate these cultures yourself or grabbing them from a respectible source?
Would love to know where you got the oenococcus, paradoxus and is the fantome you got ECY03?

Awesome experiment, subd to see the write up on this!
Cheers!

Johnnyhitch1 said:

Brett Drie and Brux are the same strain I believe.
Also did you isolate these cultures yourself or grabbing them from a respectible source?
Would love to know where you got the oenococcus, paradoxus and is the fantome you got ECY03?

Awesome experiment, subd to see the write up on this!
Cheers!

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Brett Drie/Trois is just one strain of Brett bruxellensis, which is itself a species as broad as the entire spectrum of Saccharomyces we use for traditional brewing. The nomenclature for Brett strains is a total cluster****, and doubly confusing since Brett sold commercially isn't really given common, easy-to-remember names by yeast companies the way that Sacch strains are. Drie/Trois is not the same as other Brett B strains sold commercially.

othellomcbane said:

Awesome experiment man, can't wait to hear more of the results. I'm doing a few 100% Brett pear ciders in a week or two, followed by a Brett "Cyser" on those yeast cakes.

Did you isolate the Brett Fantome yourself? I'd love to know more about whatever is in Fantome, have you had any previous experience brewing with it? Also, what is Saccharomyces paradoxus?

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Regarding Paradoxus:

The partial malolactic fermentation is of particular interest for this cider application.

Johnnyhitch1 said:

Brett Drie and Brux are the same strain I believe.
Also did you isolate these cultures yourself or grabbing them from a respectible source?
Would love to know where you got the oenococcus, paradoxus and is the fantome you got ECY03?

Awesome experiment, subd to see the write up on this!
Cheers!

Click to expand...

All of the strains, except brux and the oenococcus, are coming from ECY.

You can get Oenococcus (labelled as malolactic culture) from Wyeast on Midwest Supplies: Wyeast 4007 Malo-Lactic Cultures

Still following! I decided to top off The one gallon cider I had with a mix of Brett. Undeniably a fuller bouquet and mouthfeel. Keep your camera close, I can't wait to see what crops up from all these strains.

Some more info/pics:
http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2013/04/cider-fermentation-panel-yeast-pitched.html

looking good! Can't wait to hear how they all turn out!

Subbed...Just plated some Brett strains from Rayon Vert, Sofie and Cantillon so this may be one way to utilize them.

Here is an update:
http://www.funkfactorygeuzeria.com/2013/06/cider-fermentation-panel-bottling.html

Brux and Fantome have been the crowd favorites, with Custer close behind.

Any further updates?

Not a whole lot more I can say really. WY Brux and Fantome have been the crowd favorites. Custer is very good, but seems to be somewhat polarizing. Still working with the orchard and trying to get ready to do a couple larger commercial batches this fall.

I'm really hopeful for the results. It will be nice to have a high quality apple cider to ferment instead of the generic stuff we used for this experiment.

Not a whole lot more I can say really. WY Brux and Fantome have been the crowd favorites. Custer is very good, but seems to be somewhat polarizing. Still working with the orchard and trying to get ready to do a couple larger commercial batches this fall.

I'm really hopeful for the results. It will be nice to have a high quality apple cider to ferment instead of the generic stuff we used for this experiment.