all brett black saison...?

Brewer's Friend 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
jtakacs

jtakacs

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
742
Reaction score
22
Location
Santa Rosa
my goal is to get this dry as a bone, mash it low at 149 for 90 minutes, pitch all brett-b and brett-c simultaneously, each with a separate starter... i want black, but no roast characteristic so the carafa III will get pulverized and added at the last 10 minutes for mash. i wouldn't mind a hint of acidity from the carafa. ultimately the goal is dark, dry, and crisp.

i'm thinking of letting it open ferment spontaneously for a day or two before pitching yeast, but i'll probably come to my senses and just direct pitch... it'll be fermented warm (75-80).

6.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 51.90 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 17.30 %
1.00 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 8.65 %
0.50 lb Caramel Wheat Malt (46.0 SRM) Grain 4.33 %
0.06 lb Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 0.52 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (60 min) Hops 17.9 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (15 min) Hops 8.9 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 3.3 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (10 min) Hops 2.4 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (5 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
2.00 lb Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) Sugar 17.30 % @ Flameout
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops


Est Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.44 %
Bitterness: 33.8 IBU
Est Color: 41.6 SRM


thoughts? my concern is that the alcohol will just overpower the yeast characteristics and was thinking of making it about 6.5% instead, but keeping the same ingredient ratio.
 
Looks tasty. I love rye in a saison. With this recipe, I'd be tempted to up the rye a touch. If you want it black, I'd up the carafa as well- 1 oz isn't going to give you anything more than brown. Capping the mash like you're planning is a good way to go. You could also use Carafa Special, which is dehusked to give you a little of the chocolate without the bitterness and roast. I think the gravity is fine as-is, but it certainly wouldn't hurt if you decide to go lower.
 
You may not get dry as a bone with brett only. Most people report brett alone attenuation similar to most sacch, in the 70-80% range. I just finished up an amber ale fermented with brett b and did a little better, 1086 down to 1010. This was mashed low and had 2 lbs sugar. If you got 80-90% aa you'd still be looking at 1007 to 1012. To get super low for your saison brett may not be up to the task, but sounds like a good beer though.
 
i was hoping the 2 lbs of dark belgian sugar would dry it down and give me the color with the bit of carafa... good ideas on the dehusked and upping the rye.

typically i get 80+ attenuation with just about every yeast for whatever reason, so i have high hopes for the intentional overpitch of brett c and b bringing it down to mid 80s attenuation which puts me at 1.008... getting it to 8 would be good for me. maybe the rye, low mash and brett will simulate the dryness that isn't there.
 
jtakacs said:
i was hoping the 2 lbs of dark belgian sugar would dry it down and give me the color with the bit of carafa... good ideas on the dehusked and upping the rye.

typically i get 80+ attenuation with just about every yeast for whatever reason, so i have high hopes for the intentional overpitch of brett c and b bringing it down to mid 80s attenuation which puts me at 1.008... getting it to 8 would be good for me. maybe the rye, low mash and brett will simulate the dryness that isn't there.
Click to expand...


Oh, I totally just skipped over the sugar. That'll help, for sure.
 
Use some acid malt, Brett likes an acid wort to work well.

You want more dark malts to get a dark beer. I'm planning on using some Coffee malt in something similar in a few weeks.
 
jtakacs said:
my goal is to get this dry as a bone, mash it low at 149 for 90 minutes, pitch all brett-b and brett-c simultaneously, each with a separate starter... i want black, but no roast characteristic so the carafa III will get pulverized and added at the last 10 minutes for mash. i wouldn't mind a hint of acidity from the carafa. ultimately the goal is dark, dry, and crisp.

i'm thinking of letting it open ferment spontaneously for a day or two before pitching yeast, but i'll probably come to my senses and just direct pitch... it'll be fermented warm (75-80).

6.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 51.90 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 17.30 %
1.00 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 8.65 %
0.50 lb Caramel Wheat Malt (46.0 SRM) Grain 4.33 %
0.06 lb Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 0.52 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (60 min) Hops 17.9 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (15 min) Hops 8.9 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 3.3 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (10 min) Hops 2.4 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (5 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
2.00 lb Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) Sugar 17.30 % @ Flameout
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops


Est Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.44 %
Bitterness: 33.8 IBU
Est Color: 41.6 SRM


thoughts? my concern is that the alcohol will just overpower the yeast characteristics and was thinking of making it about 6.5% instead, but keeping the same ingredient ratio.
Click to expand...

My gut says add a Saison yeast along with the 2 brett strains. Such as a French or Belgian Saison yeast. That should help you get it ultra dry and provide the Saison flavors. Also unless your worried about head retention, i would mash even a bit lower at say 145 and mash it much longer say 3 hours, this will provide an even more fermentable wort.
 
Vance71975 said:
My gut says add a Saison yeast along with the 2 brett strains. Such as a French or Belgian Saison yeast. That should help you get it ultra dry and provide the Saison flavors. Also unless your worried about head retention, i would mash even a bit lower at say 145 and mash it much longer say 3 hours, this will provide an even more fermentable wort.
Click to expand...

I agree about pitching a saison yeast with the brett. strains. It might be taking you in a direction that you don't want to go, but I would suggest WLP670 American Farmhouse. It has been purported that it is Lost Abbey's saison blend of sacc. and brett.

I also agree that you should put some acid malt into your grist bill, because brett performs better within an acidic wort. Remember, brett. operates a lot like sacc. when it's by itself.
 
gonna try to avoid sacc although i think i'll do a mid-summer saison (conventional). going to take some of the tips above, i'm ditching the wheat, doubling the rye, adding the acid, flip flopping my munich/pils malt bill and going to let this open ferment for 24 hours (maybe 48) before pitching anything. also swapping out the belgian candy sugar for 2 lbs brown sugar - i can just buy that and it has a higher sugar content so it'll dry it out more. just hoping having to up the carafa to 8 oz. doesn't make it too bitter being that dry.

mash at 145 for two hours and see what happens...
 
weremichael said:
I also agree that you should put some acid malt into your grist bill, because brett performs better within an acidic wort. Remember, brett. operates a lot like sacc. when it's by itself.
Click to expand...

That's really only true when it's young. All of my 100% brett beers eventually pick up that "brett" wild flavor. In my experience, Brett C starts very tropical fruity (without O2) and light fruit/tart (with O2), whereas Brett B starts spicy (without O2). I haven't tried Brett B with a lot of O2. All of those beers got a lager-sized pitch, fermented quickly down to ~78-84% attenuation with a clean finish, and over the course of 8-10 months got funky.
 
dwarven_stout said:
That's really only true when it's young. All of my 100% brett beers eventually pick up that "brett" wild flavor. In my experience, Brett C starts very tropical fruity (without O2) and light fruit/tart (with O2), whereas Brett B starts spicy (without O2). I haven't tried Brett B with a lot of O2. All of those beers got a lager-sized pitch, fermented quickly down to ~78-84% attenuation with a clean finish, and over the course of 8-10 months got funky.
Click to expand...

So how much oxygen are you putting into your fresh wort? Are you experimenting with direct oxygenation vs. pitching onto wort that hasn't been directly oxygenated?

If you are starting with the same yeast quantity, then it must be another matter, possibly autolysis. Brett. is known to feed off of dead yeast cells, so maybe that is what is going on. Could the funk be the result of the brett. feeding off of the dead yeast cells?

Also, how much oxygen is your beer getting throughout the fermentation process. I have ten month old Brett. L beers (same recipe and same process) that have been stored in glass (stopper) vs. better bottles (orange carboy caps). They taste very different. The better bottles have taken on some acetic qualities, while the glass carboys are much cleaner. I am very curious what has your brewing taught you?
 
DO NOT OPEN/SPONTANEOUS FERMENT AT THIS TIME OF THE YEAR!!!!!

Sorry to pound the caps, but I strongly discourage this idea. I actually brew a lot of sour/funky beers, I do mostly open fermentation, and have cultured wild/native brewing microbes. So, that is to say that I certainly embrace the concept and idea, but from both the standpoint of research and personal experience, you can get some ugly results.

Why?

Firstly, everyone should understand that ALL traditional "spontaneously" fermented beers are brewed in fall. Basically the most important thing to know is that warm temperatures promote excessive bacterial growth, and this is really bad when you're not pitching a cultured inoculate. In the cooler months of fall, there are more suitable yeasts for brewing available and bacterias are kept in balance.

I know you are pitching some brett, and you may think that the "wild" bacterias will be good in addition, but I assure you, they will more than likely ruin the beer. There is much more to pick up than lacto and pedio right now. The hot-temperature loving bacteria are acetobacter and others of the sort that will produce vinegar and other truly nasty flavors, even at just a day or two.

Those flavors can literally make you feel like your throat is burning.

A brewery local to me recently put out a beer that was "spontaneously" fermented with the second runnings from a dubbel. I don't know what the f* this brewer was thinking, but most sensible people would not think twice about throwing it away. I heard reactions like, "it feels like I just smoked a pack of cigarettes".

Anyway, aside from that, I like you're recipe. However, I would not call it Saison. If you want it to resemble a saison and dry out, go with the suggestions and use a primary saison yeast. Otherwise, you're just brewing an all brett beer. Maybe bring the hops back just a touch. I personally think over-hopped saisons are terrible, but I know some people are into it.
 
weremichael said:
So how much oxygen are you putting into your fresh wort? Are you experimenting with direct oxygenation vs. pitching onto wort that hasn't been directly oxygenated?
Click to expand...

Basically, yes. Carboy shaking (good for ~5-6ppm O2) versus 60 seconds of pure O2. I plan to try a Brett C beer with 30s at the start and then 30s more a few days in to see if I can pump up the acidity. I got to chat with one of the guys from Surly a couple weekends ago, and they make a quite tart and refreshing all-brett beer using that basic process.


If you are starting with the same yeast quantity, then it must be another matter, possibly autolysis. Brett. is known to feed off of dead yeast cells, so maybe that is what is going on. Could the funk be the result of the brett. feeding off of the dead yeast cells?

Also, how much oxygen is your beer getting throughout the fermentation process. I have ten month old Brett. L beers (same recipe and same process) that have been stored in glass (stopper) vs. better bottles (orange carboy caps). They taste very different. The better bottles have taken on some acetic qualities, while the glass carboys are much cleaner. I am very curious what has your brewing taught you?
Click to expand...

It's possible it's autolysis. All of my all-brett beers have been bottled after about a month, and they definitely develop in the bottle. I use the Oxycaps, so I doubt they're getting much O2 while bottled.
 
aaronkaz said:
DO NOT OPEN/SPONTANEOUS FERMENT AT THIS TIME OF THE YEAR!!!!!

Sorry to pound the caps, but I strongly discourage this idea. I actually brew a lot of sour/funky beers, I do mostly open fermentation, and have cultured wild/native brewing microbes. So, that is to say that I certainly embrace the concept and idea, but from both the standpoint of research and personal experience, you can get some ugly results.

Why?

Firstly, everyone should understand that ALL traditional "spontaneously" fermented beers are brewed in fall. Basically the most important thing to know is that warm temperatures promote excessive bacterial growth, and this is really bad when you're not pitching a cultured inoculate. In the cooler months of fall, there are more suitable yeasts for brewing available and bacterias are kept in balance.

I know you are pitching some brett, and you may think that the "wild" bacterias will be good in addition, but I assure you, they will more than likely ruin the beer. There is much more to pick up than lacto and pedio right now. The hot-temperature loving bacteria are acetobacter and others of the sort that will produce vinegar and other truly nasty flavors, even at just a day or two.

Those flavors can literally make you feel like your throat is burning.

A brewery local to me recently put out a beer that was "spontaneously" fermented with the second runnings from a dubbel. I don't know what the f* this brewer was thinking, but most sensible people would not think twice about throwing it away. I heard reactions like, "it feels like I just smoked a pack of cigarettes".

Anyway, aside from that, I like you're recipe. However, I would not call it Saison. If you want it to resemble a saison and dry out, go with the suggestions and use a primary saison yeast. Otherwise, you're just brewing an all brett beer. Maybe bring the hops back just a touch. I personally think over-hopped saisons are terrible, but I know some people are into it.
Click to expand...

interesting... not really hot here yet, it'll be a game time decision. and yeah, i know it's not a saison, but i was going for most of the style and saisons are open for interpretation quite a bit...

how about a black dry brett...lol... thanks for the tips.
 
I agree its a flexible style, but in my opinion, there are enough consistencies within the examples we get here in the states to define a guideline. As vague as it is, farmhouse style may be the umbrella that this fits under. I think soon enough, we're going to see American Farmhouse as a recognized style, and I certainly hope so as there's so many creative brewers (as yourself) who are creating some fantastic beers in this vein.

I do 5 gallon batches, but sometimes I'll brew 6 and use the extra gallon for experimentation. I would try that to start. If you haven't used brett or bacteria strains a lot, its really nice to isolate them a bit to get a feel for the flavors that each contribute. I would start small with the spontaneous stuff too. It takes a lot of experience before you can predict the results you'll get.
 
aaronkaz said:
I agree its a flexible style, but in my opinion, there are enough consistencies within the examples we get here in the states to define a guideline. As vague as it is, farmhouse style may be the umbrella that this fits under. I think soon enough, we're going to see American Farmhouse as a recognized style, and I certainly hope so as there's so many creative brewers (as yourself) who are creating some fantastic beers in this vein.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I was thinking. Saison's are really driven by the yeast strain, without some saison yeast in it, it just isn't a saison. I would like to see an all brett classification as well...100% brett beers like the OP's are something that have been quietly growing in the background of brewing for a number of years and it seems like its time to give them their credit.
 

Similar threads

S
Autumn Wheat Ale
Replies
5
Views
1K
kwilson16
kwilson16
Zippy123
Feedback on recipe to split mash for two different beers
Replies
2
Views
428
Zippy123
Zippy123
PashMaddle
Brew day #2 is done.
Replies
22
Views
1K
lumpher
lumpher
Rob2010SS
Amber Ale thoughts...
Replies
21
Views
2K
AmarikinBrew
AmarikinBrew
D
First Recipe: 1 Gallon Maris Otter / Goldings SMaSH (Comments, suggestions?)
Replies
6
Views
367
Northern_Brewer
Northern_Brewer
Williams Brewing 300

Latest posts

Back
Top