Interest in a Historic Beer Swap?

A couple of threads lately have made me start thinking about trying to produce some historic ale. Something unhopped and based on an old medieval or renaissance recipe. There seems to be very little info available but enough to make a reasonably accurate attempt at it. It would be great if a few other people were also interested so we could all swap our creations to see what works and what doesn't. Something about creating a brew that could have been enjoyed by people 600 years ago is deeply appealing to me. A bit like reliving history or something. Anyway lets see if we can get a list together and start discussing recipes/gruits and the rest.

Word. I'm in. I really like how Orfy did his experiment, with no measurements whatsoever. No timers. No Automated Systems (John Beere). Just a couple handfuls of grain, a fistfull of hops and a little creativity.

I'm in. I've got a bit of a library on the subject (my wife would call that "understatement to the point of bullsh!t").

Seriously, I've got recipes, redactions and research coming out the wazoo. There's not a lot out there, but there's more than you'd think.

Some people like to specialize their brewing, creating things like spontaneously fermented Belgian-style funk machines. I like historical brewing.

Let me think on it for a coupla days.

Cheers,

Bob

I'm shamefully unaware of many of the old brewing resources (time to bone up)- but this sounds like a really fascinating exercise.

Hmmm, I have nothing historical on the burner right now...I was kinda going to wait til winter to play with some of the Gilgamesh/King Midas/Hymn to Ninkasi recipes I've been collecting....But I like this idea...

I'm in.

I'm gonna build a small set up when I get chance so I can do some 2.5 gallon batches over wood.

Cool! I've been doing some experiments with non-barley grains, flours and fruits to see what fermentables you can get out of them, as an attempt to approximate the bappir bread that the Sumerians used. I did a couple of very small trial batches to see which non-hop flavorings would work best (juniper, mustard and saffron worked well together), but nothing with the twice-baked bread that I've seen listed in the historical sources. This sounds like a good excuse to pull my finger out and go full historic.

If a recipe or guidelines are provided, I'm in. I know nothing about historic brews, but I love going to the renaissance festival. What I don't like is that all they seem to have on tap is BMC! I want some real renaissance beer!

This month I'm going all-grain on a 2.5 gal indoor system (apartments are fun). Though, depending on when we're brewing, I could possible brew over wood on a cabin trip.

is this limited to beer? or would something like a naturally fermented wine/mead be applicable?
for beer would we have to malt our own grain, malts from that long ago were a lot less modified than today's malts.

Looks like we're getting a good amount of interest in a swap. Chad posted several good link in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/beer-brewing-history-79838/. The link about "opening the closet..." has a LOT of renaissance mead or "meathe" as he calls it recipes but also some ale recipes and other good info. The gruit revival link has several gruit recipes. Let's start throwing around recipes and ideas. I think it would be great if everyone did something slightly different so that we could find out what works and what doesn't.

I'm interested in trying some 14th century gruit. I am pretty sure I can get my hands on those plants/herbs/etc... What say ye?

bsay said:

I'm interested in trying some 14th century gruit. I am pretty sure I can get my hands on those plants/herbs/etc... What say ye?

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sounds good! i propose we lightly toast a base malt in order to simulate the malt that was available in medieval europe. anyone have info on how long and at what temp to toast so that some enzymatic power remains?

I think that if we do a swap, we should agree to send whatever we brew regardless of how it turns out. That'll be part of the fun of it. Nobody will say anything if it your brew doesn't come out perfect. Remember, we are trying to capture the essence of archaic brewing methods and recipes. I imagine it was pretty much hit or miss back then.
This whole experiment is just that....an experiment. Let's have some fun with it and be good sports.

KingBrianI said:

sounds good! i propose we lightly toast a base malt in order to simulate the malt that was available in medieval europe. anyone have info on how long and at what temp to toast so that some enzymatic power remains?

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This is a wall I was waiting for us to run into. The short story is there is nothing definitive in terms of info. There is guesswork, there are grey areas. Nothing more.

We should have discussion before anyone decides anything. Here are some links to browse along with Chad's. Some of them are good, some of them are decent, some of them are just, well, dated. Before you commit to anything, report it here.

Brewing with Period Recipes - Brewing With Period Recipes

A 1503 English Beer - A recipe I've brewed before, both 5-gallon and 7bbl versions. You'll have to throw out his weights, because he's apparently never heard of Winchester measure.

The American Practical Brewer & Tanner - I've brewed out of this book; print a copy.

Beer, ale and Malt Liquor: old British beer styles - Chock full of good information.

Harrison's Description Of England, first published 1577. Of specific interest is Chapter VI.

Here's an interesting article. Worth reading for background.

Stanley Baron's Brewed in America. Essential!

Jankowski's article on Porter from Brewing Techniques magazine in Amr/Apr 1997.

The Wittenham Hill Cider Portal - The Wittenham Hill Cider Portal. It ain't beer, but it's still cool as hell!


Required Reading: You will buy these books if you are interested at all in this subject. BUY THEM NOW.

Beer in America: The Early Years - Gregg Smith

Ale, Beer, and Brewsters in England: Women's Work in a Changing World

Old English Beers & How To Make Them

Origin & History of Beer & Brewing


Enjoy!

I suggest some pre brew tests are done first.

Up to the mash stage. just a few pints at a time.

And let's not forget "The Closet of the Eminently Learned Sir Kenelm Digby Opened: Whereby is Discovered Several ways for making of Metheglin, Sider, Cherry-wine, &c, together with Excellent Directions for Cookery".

The Closet of Sir Kenelm Digby Knight Opened by Kenelm Digby - Project Gutenberg

Sir Kenelm Digby is my hero. He was a scientist and founder member of the Royal Society, as well as a brewer, duellist and pirate. And he invented the wine bottle. :rockin:

Wow, this sounds interesting. I mainly brew "historical" brews myself. That is; Brews made from reasonably easy-to-get ingredients that would be available locally here in Norway during the viking age: Bogmyrtle, Sour apples, Heather, berries etc.

Thurz said:

Wow, this sounds interesting. I mainly brew "historical" brews myself. That is; Brews made from reasonably easy-to-get ingredients that would be available locally here in Norway during the viking age: Bogmyrtle, Sour apples, Heather, berries etc.

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Very cool, I'd love if you shared your experiences with us!

I've been sifting through the information Bob posted and trying to come up with some ideas. I agree with Orfy that we should start doing some experiments a couple pints at a time to test ideas. My first inclinitation is to begin testing the remaining enzymatic power in maris otter malt that has been toasted in an oven. I'd like to try to replicate the less-modified, slightly darker malts of the time period we're targeting, but I can't find any data on the color of the malt. I figure I'll toast enough to make a few pints at 350F for 15 minutes, 30 minutes and 45 minutes then try mashing them to see what kind of conversion I get. That should at least get us started.

The other thing I've been struggling with is whether to say no hops in any of the recipes or to allow them. Sir Digby has a few ale recipes in his book that all use hops only for bittering. Also, I've read some gruit recipes included hops in the mix. Maybe it would be good if some people in the swap tried these variations so we could compare it with the hopless creations. I've yet to find any historic recipe for a gruit and think we may end up having to make some up. So far, all I've found are general outlines of the herbs that are used in gruits and modern interpretations of gruit recipes. It would be cool to see any information anyone could find detailing historical use of herbs as far as quantity, when added to the boil, etc.

Hopefully I can begin my malt experiments soon. Anyone else who wants to start experimenting please chime in.

This sounds like fun. Too bad I still use extract- I guess that sort of defeats the purpose of this. I say go for something like that Tutankhamen Ale that Newcastle brewed and sold for about $100/each.

Check out this link for an ancient Egyptian-style beer. Sounds pretty old school. Definitely a fun experiment. And people thought adding pumpkin was weird...I'd pass on eating the bread post-fermentation.

Scroll halfway down or click "world's oldest" up top.
True Beer Facts

At the very end, there is also a recipe for Heather ale, which sounds good. I've had Fraoch's (whatever they're called) and I thought it was good, definitely different. I think the bottle claimed it was originally brewed around the time Stonehenge was built.

I've also brewed mainly using extracts, but I found that in order to keep it real with what my brewing intentions are, I have to start using AG as much as I possibly can, which is hard when you are a student and your brewery is a 20m2 apartment and I haven't really got any room for anything besides the most utterly basic brewing equipment.

By the way: Does anybody have any ideas regarding how long people have produced carbonated beers? When I produce my ales I drink half my batch fresh without any bottle conditioning, while the other half is bottled. I usually asume people didn't go through the work of carbonating their beer around the year 800 AD

Steiner said:

This sounds like fun. Too bad I still use extract- I guess that sort of defeats the purpose of this.

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Not at all! You can brew historical beer with extract. You just don't have as many options as all-grain brewers. You can take any recipe and simply substitute the pale malt for the appropriate amount of light extract. Of course, if the recipe calls for oats or rye, you're going to have to at least mini-mash, but that's not rocket science!

At the very end, there is also a recipe for Heather ale, which sounds good. I've had Fraoch's (whatever they're called) and I thought it was good, definitely different. I think the bottle claimed it was originally brewed around the time Stonehenge was built.

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Bottle labels aren't documentation. Thing is, we don't really know when or to what extent heather was used in brewing. It's one of those "traditional" things used in the hinterlands of northern Britain upon which it is impossible to put definitively-dated "bookends". It certainly wasn't used on Salisbury plain!

Still a yummy beer, though.

Bob

Thurz said:

Does anybody have any ideas regarding how long people have produced carbonated beers? When I produce my ales I drink half my batch fresh without any bottle conditioning, while the other half is bottled. I usually asume people didn't go through the work of carbonating their beer around the year 800 AD

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I don't have any data, and I don't think any definitive data exists. Then again, my research is very strongly Anglo-centric.

In Britain, ale - meaning malt liquor brewed without hops - was drunk so young as to be still bubbling from primary fermentation. Strong ale that was kept (cellared) for a time might have developed some slight carbonation from being sealed in cask, but it certainly wouldn't have been the 2+ volumes we're used to modernly. I don't think it possible that it was the same level of carbonation seen in modern Real Ale.

I'd like some further details about your experiences. You say you drink some of your beer uncarbonated? What do you think of it?

Bob

I've got a White House cookbook, printed in 1887, and it has two or three beer recipes without hops. Pretty authentic if you ask me. Let me know if anyone is interested.

Cool book by the way. Full of old recipes, home remedies, and other cool stuff.

The "Historic" Ales from Williams brothers should be taken with a pinch of salt. They are a tribute to rather than an aproximation of old brews. I think all but one of thier beers use hops.

BobNQ3X said:

I don't have any data, and I don't think any definitive data exists. Then again, my research is very strongly Anglo-centric.

In Britain, ale - meaning malt liquor brewed without hops - was drunk so young as to be still bubbling from primary fermentation. Strong ale that was kept (cellared) for a time might have developed some slight carbonation from being sealed in cask, but it certainly wouldn't have been the 2+ volumes we're used to modernly. I don't think it possible that it was the same level of carbonation seen in modern Real Ale.

I'd like some further details about your experiences. You say you drink some of your beer uncarbonated? What do you think of it?

Bob

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Thank you, very interesting! Well, it may take some time to get used to it, depending on the kind of ale you brew. Some of my friends and fellow reenactors(I'm part of a viking-age reenactment society, and often bring my brew to various festivities related to this) comment that it really often tastes more like a sort of wine than ale. Ofcouse most of them are used to the typical pilsner you can get anywhere, and I use bogmyrtle instead of hops, and often add some honey or berries to the wort. I think it's allright, at least when I'm at festivals and markets as it gives me that nice touch of authentic drunkeness.

Oh! And since I don't really use any instruments for measuring OG etc.(I'm lazy and haven't really bothered to delve into the technical stuff behind brewing) I often just add ingredients as I go. I usually start with a basic idea of what I want and just throw stuff into the carboy if I get a new idea for an additive.

Thurz said:

Thank you, very interesting! Well, it may take some time to get used to it, depending on the kind of ale you brew. Some of my friends and fellow reenactors(I'm part of a viking-age reenactment society, and often bring my brew to various festivities related to this) comment that it really often tastes more like a sort of wine than ale. Ofcouse most of them are used to the typical pilsner you can get anywhere, and I use bogmyrtle instead of hops, and often add some honey or berries to the wort. I think it's allright, at least when I'm at festivals and markets as it gives me that nice touch of authentic drunkeness.

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That's wonderful! I've done the same sort of thing - I reenact about seventeen different eras . Two experiences spring to mind. First was an 18th-century event to which I brought a redaction of a London porter recipe, and the second (favorite) was a 15th-century, Wars of the Roses event to which I brought a bucolic sort of farmhouse beer. I guess it could be categorized as Belgian Wit-beer; it had malt, oats, wheat and rye, low hops, spices, and a tart Belgian yeast (Ardennes). The ABV was ~3%. I brewed it on the Sunday before the event and kegged it the Thursday before. We drank it for breakfast and dinner, and most of the group had it for supper as well - the knight and his steward had wine. It was a really cool living history experience! With which group do you reenact?

Bob

P.S. Here's a pic from that 15th-century event.

I'm with Vikingklubben Karmøy, which translates to The Vikingclub(duh!) Karmøy. That is, Karmøy is both the municipal it's located in and the name of the group. Not really that well known, but Karmøy was the main seat of Norway's first nationally recognised king. It's also where Norway has it's name from(A narrow sound between the Karmøy Island and the mainland- norðweg; the way north).



...Wow, this all became a bit off-topic now! I hope you guys can excuse me

Thurz, that looks like a lot of fun!

Bob, can you describe how you toasted the grain for the porter you made in the brewing with historical equipment thread? I'd also be interested in if you think it worked well or if you would change anything the next time around. Also, what are your thoughts on using "brown malt" instead of toasting a base grain?

KingBrianI said:

Bob, can you describe how you toasted the grain for the porter you made in the brewing with historical equipment thread? I'd also be interested in if you think it worked well or if you would change anything the next time around.

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I used my kitchen. My process was based on the process Coppinger outlines in The American Practical Brewer & Tanner, called "Porter Malt", quoted here:

This species of malt should be made from strong, well-bodied barley, the process exactly the same as for pale malt, until it is about half dried on the kiln; you then change your fuel under the kiln from coak or coal to ash or beech wood, which should be split into small handy billets, and a fierce, strong fire kept up, so as to complete the drying and colouring in three hours, during which time it should be frequently turned; when the colour is found sufficiently high, it may be thrown off; the workmen should be provided with wooden shoes, to protect their feet from the uncommon heat of the kiln in this last part of the process, which requires the grain to snap again from the excessive heat of the kiln. For the better performing this part of the process, I would recommend a wire kiln to be placed adjoining the tiled one, from which it may be cast on the wire; this would be a better and more certain mode of conveying the porter flavour to the malt, than if the drying was finished on the tiled kiln. Where a wire kiln was thought too dear, a tiled one might be made to answer.

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If you read this and think about it for a bit, you'll find it's really the same thing as Papazian tells us to do in NCJOHB for toasted malt. The main difference is the beech or ash wood; I justified not using the wood because those woods are so mild as to impart no flavor.

Simply put, I toasted Maris Otter in my oven at 375degF. I turned it every few minutes, checking the color by breaking open a random corn or two. What you're looking for is the color of the germ starch: You want it to be just darker than parchment-tan.

As Coppinger notes, as you get close to the proper temperature/color, some of the corns will 'snap' like popcorn. If you monitor the oven closely you'll hear it. That's a great time to check for color.

Also, what are your thoughts on using "brown malt" instead of toasting a base grain?

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I'd prefer to use brown malt! It's easier, very historically accurate for London Porter brewing, and doesn't require heating up the oven. I made my own brown malt for two reasons - 1., the recipe I was brewing was the one immediately preceding the process for Porter Malt in Coppinger; 2., I didn't have any brown malt to hand and didn't feel like buying something I could make myself.

Brown malt really is a base grain. It retains some diastatic power, even though it's highly kilned, and was often the only malt used in Porter.

Cheers,

Bob

Hmm, it sounds like brown malt may be a bit dark for the ale I'd like to make. I was thinking of doing something with only a medium darkness, like a dark mild. Is that color typical of the period, or was everything porter dark?

Well, I don't have a calibrated SRM set handy, so I can't give you definitive numbers. But the "porter" Chris & I brewed to Coppinger's recipe is much more of a brown ale than what we would consider a modern Porter, even Brown Porter. It's darker than Newcastle, but nowhere near black. So I guess is depends on your definition of "dark".

I don't think all malts were that brown. I'm also convinced they were all that light. If the palest malts were much lighter than 4-5L before the advent of the drum roaster, I'd be very much surprised. That's why I prefer Maris Otter or Mild Ale malt as the base malt in my historical beers.

Make sense?

Bob

I hadn't even thought about mild malt. Do you think mild malt is a good approximation of the pale malts from this period? If not, what do you think about a mix of mild malt, amber malt, and brown malt in an approximately 75/20/5 ratio? It looks like 10 lbs of this mix in a 5.5 gal ale would be 13 srm.

Mild malt can be a decent approximation, as can any floor-malted base malt that is >3L. Note that does not include Vienna; though it can be used as a base malt, it is not appropriate before the advent of the drum roaster.

Which malt - or mix of malts - to choose depends on what you're trying to do. I don't think you need to go to proportions of base, amber and brown to replicate the color of an historical base malt. But I admit it depends on the intent.

Bob

Bob, thanks for all the info so far!! Since you seem well-read on the subject, what are your opinions on the gruit? I haven't been able to find any good historical data on the amount/volume of the different herbs or even when each was typically added in the boil. I'm sure some of the herbs were mainly for bitterness while others were more for flavor and aroma. I guess part of this swap's purpose is to hone in on what works and what doesn't, but could you help provide a starting point?

Sadly, no. I have next to no practical experience with gruit. Many brewers have read Stephen Buhner's Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers with good results. As a source specifically relating to brewing, however, it is suspect; it is, after all, an herbal, not a brewing treatise. But it's a good starting point, IMO.

Bob