Stirring mash before sparge - question

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

smccarter

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
176
Location
Milton
I'm brewing today and had an idea that kind of made sense to me. Running this by you guys to see if anyone else does this.

I mash and lauter in the same cooler, as I'm sure many of us do. I've always left the mash tun alone and sparged as it set. It came to me that if a brewery agitates the mash, and even some home brewers continually stir while mashing to maximize efficiency, why wouldn't I stir the mash before sparging?

So I added 1 gallon of sparge water, stirred the mash well, vorlof'd, then sparged.

Comments are very welcome. Would like to know if this tecnique is something that others are doing, standard practice that I didn't know about, or shouldn't be done.

Thanks in advance.
 
For those of us who batch-sparge, stirring is essential. I'm not sure if it'll do much for fly sparging, but it shouldn't hurt!

Bryan
 
Obviously, when I used to fly sparge, I did not stir my mash.

Now that I batch sparge, it makes more sense to me to stir so as to disperse the sugars into the sparge water more efficiently. Having a pump (little tan wonder) makes recirculating for Vorlauft very easy.

Interested in other's opinions.
 
I almost exclusively batch sparge and I stir the sparge almost like I am doughing-in. I have been getting incredible efficiency lately. I am not sure exactly why, but I am getting into mid to high 80s. I recently added a false bottom that covers the entire bottom of my rectangular cooler. I use 5.2 with every batch as well as rice hulls.

I tried a few methods for fly sparging. Gordon Strong's book has a method where you just add your sparge water to your mash tun with your strike water and run off everything at once. This worked, but was not nearly as efficient (for extraction) as running off all of my wort and then refilling. If you haven't picked his book it is really worth reading.

My one attempt at fly sparging landed me in 60s. I was obviously doing something wrong.
 
Batch sparging..... If I'm using 5 gal of sparge water at 170 degrees.

Is this correct?

1. drain mash volume
2. add 2.5 gal and drain
3. add final 2.5 gal and drain

Is it that simple?
 
I let BeerSmith calculate it for me, so I can account for water loss in the grain. Let me make sure I am following your question:

You are making a 5-gallon batch. You are mashing-in with 2.5 gallons, draining and then sparging with 2.5 gallons?

If so then you probably need to adjust a little. You want figure out the amount of water based off of the amount of grain. 1 - 2 quarts per pound of grain, I think 1.25 is the most common. Your strike water would typically have more volume than your sparge water. I like to have a little more water, I would much rather have extra wort than too little.
 
Mashin in with 2.5.... sparging with a total of 5 gallons.... batch sparging in 2 batches.

first - before any "sparge" water hits the mash.... drain the mash - and then...

add 2.5 gal sparge water, drain..... (5 gallons so far)

add the final 2.5 gal sparge water, drain.... (7.5 gallons total)
 
I stir all the time before sparge, ive sparged slightly different my last several brews and my efficiency stays about the same. The following describes easiest to achieve proper volume and still get good efficiency.

After mash is done open up and stir.
(Vorlauf)Drain first runnings
Add about 2 gallons of water and stir like crazy
(Vorlauf) as this water is draining do an improv fly sparge until i hit my preboil volume.
Ive gotten around 72-75% mash efficiency with this method
 
smccarter said:
Mashin in with 2.5.... sparging with a total of 5 gallons.... batch sparging in 2 batches.

first - before any "sparge" water hits the mash.... drain the mash - and then...

add 2.5 gal sparge water, drain..... (5 gallons so far)

add the final 2.5 gal sparge water, drain.... (7.5 gallons total)

That sounds like a solid plan. You need to keep an eye on your gravity with the second sparge. Once you drop below a certain gravity you want stop because you will get off flavors.
 
Too late. I stirred about 5 minutes after the 60 minute mash. Drained that.... added 2.5 gal, stirred for 10 min, drained that.... added the final 2.5, stirred for 10 min and drained. Re-setting the grain bed between each.

I actually brewed the same beer twice today.

1st one... fly sparge. Pre-boil gravity was 1.033
2nd one... batch sparge. Pre-boil gravity was 1.040

I'll fill in the details at the end of the brew day. I have to say though, that a batch sparge just makes sense. Especially with the stirring. I've often wondered how much sugar I've been wasting when I throw my "spent" grain away. I used to throw the grain in my mulch pile... the flies REALLY love it.
 
I brewed the same beer twice today sparging two different ways....

NB Surly Bitter Brewer clone.

Beer 1:
Mash temp 152, 2.5 gallons water
Sparge water - 5 gal total, 170 degrees
Fly sparge for about 30 minutes
Pre-boil volume - 6.4 gal
Pre-boil gravity - 1.033
Post-boil volume - 5.5 gal
OG - 1.040
Efficiency - 66%

Beer 2:
Mash temp 152, 2.5 gallons water
Sparge water - 5 gal total, 170 degrees
Batch sparge
- first runnings
- second runnings, 2.5 gal
- third runnings, 2.5 gal
Pre-boil volume - 6.5 gal
Pre-boil gravity - 1.040
Post-boil volume - 5 gal
OG - 1.046
Efficiency - 80%

First time batch sparging for me. I think this is a change in process that will stick for me.
 
I brewed the same beer twice today sparging two different ways....

NB Surly Bitter Brewer clone.

Beer 1:
Mash temp 152, 2.5 gallons water
Sparge water - 5 gal total, 170 degrees
Fly sparge for about 30 minutes
Pre-boil volume - 6.4 gal
Pre-boil gravity - 1.033
Post-boil volume - 5.5 gal
OG - 1.040
Efficiency - 66%

Beer 2:
Mash temp 152, 2.5 gallons water
Sparge water - 5 gal total, 170 degrees
Batch sparge
- first runnings
- second runnings, 2.5 gal
- third runnings, 2.5 gal
Pre-boil volume - 6.5 gal
Pre-boil gravity - 1.040
Post-boil volume - 5 gal
OG - 1.046
Efficiency - 80%

First time batch sparging for me. I think this is a change in process that will stick for me.

I may have to try that method to see how it compares to a single sparge. What is your reasoning for doing the second infusion?
 
I've always used the fly sparge method, and always wondered how much sugar I was throwing out with the spent grain. Just wanted to see if this made a difference.

As far as the second infusion... Read about batch sparging and followed the instructions. 1. drain the mash liquid, 2. add half of your sparge water, stir and drain, 3. add the last half of your sparge water, stir and drain.

Not sure this method is actually correct... I'll have to read a bit more about it.
 
Not sure this method is actually correct... I'll have to read a bit more about it.

If it's not, it's what I've been doing for the past half dozen batches.:D

The only addition would be running the wort through my pump to vorlauft. Five or ten minutes gets the runnings nice and clear.
 
DoWBrewer said:
That sounds like a solid plan. You need to keep an eye on your gravity with the second sparge. Once you drop below a certain gravity you want stop because you will get off flavors.

I never knew this. What sort of off flavors does this produce? What is the minimum gravity you would want to see?

Thanks.
 
That sounds like a solid plan. You need to keep an eye on your gravity with the second sparge. Once you drop below a certain gravity you want stop because you will get off flavors.

Really? Why would you say that.

If you have done everything right you will end up with the right amount of wort and the proper preboil gravity. If the gravity gets too low the only thing that will happen is that you will have a lower gravity beer - lower ABV.

Unless you count weak beer as an off flavor.
 
You can batch sparge with just a single addition of sparge water. There is no real need to split it in half. I do, but that is because I find it easier to adjust the volume of the second sparge to make sure I get the right pre-boil volume.

I mash then stir like crazy, vorlauf and drain, add 1st sparge water, stir like crazy, vorlauf and drain, add 2nd sparge water, stir like crazy, vorlauf and final drain.
 
NewkyBrown said:
I never knew this. What sort of off flavors does this produce? What is the minimum gravity you would want to see?

Thanks.

I will have to look it up, but I think once you drop below the 1.010 range you start extracting tannins ect. You don't really want your efficiency to get much past the 80s. I will see if can find the exact number.

The idea comes more from breweries fly sparging with larger hot liquor capacity. They run until they hit their gravity taking into account their boil off. Since they can keeping running hot liquor and are trying maximize efficiency, they monitor the runoff gravity to know when to stop for gravity or off flavor extraction.

To be honest, this is the outer reaches of my knowledge. Someone who is more knowledgable might be able to explain it more accurately.
 
kh54s10 said:
You can batch sparge with just a single addition of sparge water. There is no real need to split it in half. I do, but that is because I find it easier to adjust the volume of the second sparge to make sure I get the right pre-boil volume.

I mash then stir like crazy, vorlauf and drain, add 1st sparge water, stir like crazy, vorlauf and drain, add 2nd sparge water, stir like crazy, vorlauf and final drain.

I knew/thought to stir straight after the mash. I also don't stir too much after adding sparge water. Doh! I guess my efficiency will be much higher next time!
 
I have to say it again. I tried batch sparging for the first time last weekend. It just makes perfect sense to me. If a brewery continually aggitates their mash, and many home brewers stir their mash continually, why wouldn't you want to stir the lauter tun? Obviously resetting the grain bed before draining.

After posting this and on another thread, I'm seeing that there are folks that are absolute fly spargers - if that's a thing. It seems almost like an argument. Not really sure if it should be.

I'm brewing again tomorrow. It'll be another double batch day using the same recipe. I'll fly sparge the first batch and batch sparge the second and post my readings. I'll try to be a bit more exacting on the measurements. The problem is... my equipment is home brewing equipment. If I could only buy a major brewery with the most modern equipment and technology ... then I could do all of my home brewing there and would be able to get every reading to the nearest nth. (end sarcasm)...
 
I've always stirred the mash before draining, and also after each sparge; I batch sparge 2x.

Now continually stirring poses a different problem, even intermittent stirring does, unless one has means to easily heat the mash back up. I use a 52 qt Coleman Extreme cooler, and cover the mash with aluminum foil. Every time I open the cooler, even for 20-30 seconds to stick my thermometer through the foil, I stand to lose a degree. If I lifted up the foil and stirred, I would lose more heat.

How do you get around the heat loss in a cooler without a direct heating source or RIMS? Add more boiling water before stirring?
 
Whatcha brewing this time?

Im also wondering if a specific grain bill would be more responsive to one type of sparging or another. Not that i plan to experimemt with it, ill stick with batch sparging and stirring.

On a side note, to properly fly sparge i think youre supposed to go suuuuper slow (most ive read says sparge should take an hour for fly sparging) and keep your sparge water from mixing, ideally keeping the denser sugar water below the cleaner water, effectively pushing all of the sugar from the grain.

Again, it would seem marginally if at all better than stirring, taking less time and see whatever numbers you may get with batch sparging.
 
I may have to try that method to see how it compares to a single sparge. What is your reasoning for doing the second infusion?

It increases efficiency. A third batch will do so even more, so long as you've enough water for each batch. I generally do two batches, and I stir each one before recirculating (vorlaufing) and draining once it runs clear

Edit: this is from personal experience, but I'm pretty sure Palmer says this in How to Brew as well.
 
Ill still have to get in touch, im sorry it still hasnt happened, my schedule so swamped and my brew days have been really impromptu. I work a ton and doing full time school, and try to fet to the gym 4-6 days a week. Im goimg to brew a pale ale soon., but i think i need to refill / swap my propane soon, it feels really light.. eh, now im rambling, cheers!
 
I will have to look it up, but I think once you drop below the 1.010 range you start extracting tannins ect. . .

To be honest, this is the outer reaches of my knowledge. Someone who is more knowledgable might be able to explain it more accurately.
The problem is exactly as DoWBrewer stated - as you fly-sparge you are extracting not only sugars, but also the components of the mash which maintain an acidic pH. As such, as you continue to fly sprage the pH rises. The extraction of tannins (which produce an astringent flavour) increases as pH increases. If you have a pH meter you can monitor this and stop a fly sparge once the pH is above pH 5.8 (5.5 to 5.6 for lighter bodied beers). If you lack a pH meter, wort SG of 1.010 is a good place to stop - you're probably still below 5.5, but you're also at the point where pH starts to rise quickly. Some people even add acid to the sparge water to improve extraction (and I believe this is common practice in commercial breweries as well).

With batch sparging this is not an issue, as you are adding all the water at once, and thus spreading the buffering capacity of the mash more evenly across the sparge water.

I used to fly sparge, now I'm a committed batch-sparger. My efficiency may have suffered a little, but the beer is better!

Bryan
 
Warthaug said:
The problem is exactly as DoWBrewer stated - as you fly-sparge you are extracting not only sugars, but also the components of the mash which maintain an acidic pH. As such, as you continue to fly sprage the pH rises. The extraction of tannins (which produce an astringent flavour) increases as pH increases. If you have a pH meter you can monitor this and stop a fly sparge once the pH is above pH 5.8 (5.5 to 5.6 for lighter bodied beers). If you lack a pH meter, wort SG of 1.010 is a good place to stop - you're probably still below 5.5, but you're also at the point where pH starts to rise quickly. Some people even add acid to the sparge water to improve extraction (and I believe this is common practice in commercial breweries as well).

With batch sparging this is not an issue, as you are adding all the water at once, and thus spreading the buffering capacity of the mash more evenly across the sparge water.

I used to fly sparge, now I'm a committed batch-sparger. My efficiency may have suffered a little, but the beer is better!

Bryan

Thanks for the explanation. BTW -- I do add 5.2 to my sparge water to control the PH.
 
This thread is interesting as opinions and experiences are all over the map.

I used to batch sparge. Vorlauf & drain the first runnings, add water, stir, vorlauf, drain, add water, stir, vorlauf, drain. I would typically get around 80% efficiency.

Then I started fly sparging. I put a spaghetti colander over the top of the mash tun (10 gal igloo cooler) and dumped the sparge water in as the water level dropped. The efficiency was about the same.

Then I built a brew stand (actually just $20 worth of cinder blocks from HD). I heat water up to about 185-195 and transfer it into my bottling bucket (I keg, so now this is its permanent job). I run a hose and empty it into the colander which is lined with paper towels. This helps dissipate the water so it doesn't all dump in one place. I try to keep about an inch of water above the top of the grain bed.

I also stir the top few inches of the mash every few minutes while fly sparging. The bottom 3-4 inches are where the filtering is done so the rest of the mash can be stirred - obviously very carefully.

Last batch I got 83.9%. I'm pretty happy with that.

As for the pH runnings discussion, I've checked the gravity at the end of the runnings numerous times and it's never been close to 1.010. I don't think it's something that you have to worry about at the homebrew level.
 
In switching from fly to batch, I went from an average of 83% efficiency to ~75%. But my efficiency is crawling back up as I optimize my process (although I doubt I'll hit 83% again). One day I hope to build the full-on brew sculpture, and will probably return to fly sparging then. But, so long as I'm stuck with ye-old-cooler MLT, batch sparging is the route I'm sticking with.

Ultimately, how you sparge matters less than a) sparging correctly (to get reosnable efficiency without extracting tannins) and b) getting consistency (so you can predict the final product). If I had to choose, I'd aim for B over A; base malt is cheap, but a screwed-up batch can be worth a lot.

Bryan
 
I wasn't able to brew on Wednesday... had to work. I brewed the first of two this evening, and will brew the 2nd tomorrow. They are the same recipes - NB Surly Cynic clones. Here is the info on the recipe and the numbers from today. I fly sparged this batch.

8.75 lb Belgian Pilsner Malt
.63 lb Golden Naked Oats
.63 lb Aciduated Malt
.63 lb Belgian Aromatic

Pre boil volume - 6.5 gallons
Pre boil gravity - 1.052
Efficiency - 88.4%

3 gal in mash
5 gal sparge water

Post boil volume 5.5 gal
Original gravity 1.058

The sparge took about 70 minutes in all. I set the timer to 60 minutes when it began. The timer went off... I believe it was 10 or so minutes after the timer went off that it finished.

Same recipe today, but batch sparge.

Mash temp 148 today... Had to add an additional .25 gal to the mash tun to bring it up to 148, so 3.25 gal in the mash tun.

first, too 25 minutes to drain
2nd, added 2.5 gal at 180, stirred for 10 min, took 9 minutes to drain
3rd, added 2.5 gal at 180, stirred for 10 min, took 5 minutes to drain.

I wanted the two batches to be comparable so I stopped draining when I hit 6.5 gallons, so there was still a bit of water left in the lauter tun.

Pre-boil volume was 6.5 gallons
Pre-boil gravity 1.049

Efficiency 83.3%

Post boil volume 5.4 gallons (boiled for 70 min)

OG - 1.057
 
Back
Top