bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
theveganbrewer said:
I'll look back and try to find it.
Heady Topper- Can you clone it?
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I'll look back and try to find it.
h0psnobery
Well-Known Member
I've never had Heady Topper, but after reading through the previous thread and this one I can't wait to try the clone! Has anyone managed to order ECY 29 from East Coast Yeast, or does anyone have an extra vial of Conan?
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
h0psnobery said:
I'm pretty sure you can't order it, he just does drop offs to LHBS in the area and some at willing to ship but most sell out immediately. He made a Facebook post recently that led me to believe that he isn't going to be working that strain through for a while though.
In other news, my culturing efforts seem to be well rewarded. I've never seen a starter produce anywhere near this much krausen. I'm going to decant this after crashing for a week or so, build up another 2L from it, crash, and then save half of it to culture down the road and brew with the other half. It's likely going to be awhile before I get my hands on another can.
TriggerFingers
Well-Known Member
Thats what a lot of people think, but out of the many batches of Simcoe I have tried in a number of beers I have never noticed it to have a primary "pine" characteristic--maybe as a secondary or tertiary aroma? Thats why it kind of smells like pine a little, sometimes.
Mine looks very similar. I collected from 2 cans into 2 x 4 step up starters. I'm on my last crashing step before dividing up and saving/sharing. I figured I'll have about 660 billion cells or 6 x 110 cells. I'm planning on giving out some in my homebrew club with the hopes that other will grow it up and give it out.
whitehause
Well-Known Member
NICE!/.....I agree, I did a single can harvest and had krausen on the first step.
Update from my clone attempt #1
Recipe:
5 gallons
Fawcett Pearl 87%
Caramalt 4.5%
Torrified Wheat 4.5%
(CM and TW were Weyermann, couldn't get TF)
Dextrose 4%
152 degree mash
OG 1.074
FG:1.012
60 min boil
60 min - 10 ml hopshot, .5 oz columbus
5 min - 1 oz columbus, 1 oz simcoe
0 min (30 min whirlpool, 1/2 of this addition in at flameout, 1/2 at 180 degrees, manual whirlpool intermittently for 30 minute steep, then continued to cool) - 2 oz columbus, 1.5 oz simcoe, 1 oz amarillo
pitched ~170B cells of conan, about 9 m/ml at 64 degrees. 30 seconds of O2. held 66-68
dry hopped in two equal stages (in keg)
total dry hop: 2 oz simcoe, 2 oz columbus, 1 oz amarillo, 1 oz centennial, .5 oz apollo.
brew date: 4/14, dry hop 1 date: 4/27, dry hop 2: 5/2, began to carb up 5/7, 12 PSI.
HT can was packaged on/around 4/8.
See attached pic (heady on left)- clearly, color is off, and mine is hazier. Imagine turbinado may have something to do with this, but surprised the color wasn't a bit closer. Also possible is caramalt difference. will try to get TF everything going forward. Haze likely chill haze.
Flavor: Close, but HT is certainly better (no surprise there). I feel HT is fruitier, sweeter, a bit more balanced, and the bitterness is smoother than the clone attempt. I feel the clone is more dank, perhaps more earthy, equally if not more bitter, but less balanced, the lack of sweetness I get from heady helps to balance the bitterness. I know people get extreme dank from heady, but I don't get this absurd dank, but well balanced hop flavor, with aspects of dankness, earthyness, and floral sweetness.
There really is something else in HT that I just cant put my finger one. Maybe rye or something (have anyone looked at any rye in the grist?), or some hop flavor, just some other intangible there that comes out, but I can't nail down. Wish the ole palet was able to hone in, but I just can't. same goes for other differences, one of those you can taste em, but hard to pin down.
I do think the clone needs more Simcoe, I get a similar taste to Pipeworks Unicorn v Ninja, which is heavy on the Simcoe. So perhaps more Simcoe, less Columbus.
Nose: Pretty close, no discerning notable differences, I do find for such a 'tasty" beer, that the nose on heady is not overwhelming one bit.
All in all, satisfied for attempt 1. But as expected, I loved my clone solo, and then tried it side by side and was like wow, Heady kills it.
Recipe:
5 gallons
Fawcett Pearl 87%
Caramalt 4.5%
Torrified Wheat 4.5%
(CM and TW were Weyermann, couldn't get TF)
Dextrose 4%
152 degree mash
OG 1.074
FG:1.012
60 min boil
60 min - 10 ml hopshot, .5 oz columbus
5 min - 1 oz columbus, 1 oz simcoe
0 min (30 min whirlpool, 1/2 of this addition in at flameout, 1/2 at 180 degrees, manual whirlpool intermittently for 30 minute steep, then continued to cool) - 2 oz columbus, 1.5 oz simcoe, 1 oz amarillo
pitched ~170B cells of conan, about 9 m/ml at 64 degrees. 30 seconds of O2. held 66-68
dry hopped in two equal stages (in keg)
total dry hop: 2 oz simcoe, 2 oz columbus, 1 oz amarillo, 1 oz centennial, .5 oz apollo.
brew date: 4/14, dry hop 1 date: 4/27, dry hop 2: 5/2, began to carb up 5/7, 12 PSI.
HT can was packaged on/around 4/8.
See attached pic (heady on left)- clearly, color is off, and mine is hazier. Imagine turbinado may have something to do with this, but surprised the color wasn't a bit closer. Also possible is caramalt difference. will try to get TF everything going forward. Haze likely chill haze.
Flavor: Close, but HT is certainly better (no surprise there). I feel HT is fruitier, sweeter, a bit more balanced, and the bitterness is smoother than the clone attempt. I feel the clone is more dank, perhaps more earthy, equally if not more bitter, but less balanced, the lack of sweetness I get from heady helps to balance the bitterness. I know people get extreme dank from heady, but I don't get this absurd dank, but well balanced hop flavor, with aspects of dankness, earthyness, and floral sweetness.
There really is something else in HT that I just cant put my finger one. Maybe rye or something (have anyone looked at any rye in the grist?), or some hop flavor, just some other intangible there that comes out, but I can't nail down. Wish the ole palet was able to hone in, but I just can't. same goes for other differences, one of those you can taste em, but hard to pin down.
I do think the clone needs more Simcoe, I get a similar taste to Pipeworks Unicorn v Ninja, which is heavy on the Simcoe. So perhaps more Simcoe, less Columbus.
Nose: Pretty close, no discerning notable differences, I do find for such a 'tasty" beer, that the nose on heady is not overwhelming one bit.
All in all, satisfied for attempt 1. But as expected, I loved my clone solo, and then tried it side by side and was like wow, Heady kills it.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Which beer is yours, right or left? I understand the feeling that there seems to be something in there that we don't have. It's weird, not like a hop aroma. I've said it before, but John has warned me numerous times to be careful with the Columbus because it can be too dank.
Heady is on the left. Darker. Will edit post to add that (should have said that in the first place).
The more I keep drinking the two, just can't get past that "something".... whatever the hell is may be.
HawksBrewer
Well-Known Member
My mind was just blown. That is cool.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
Man, I wish I could find that stuff locally at a decent price. The best I could get was $115 shipped. I'm probably just going to get 15 lbs from Midwest.droder1 said:
I wonder if it could be something as simple as a long boil.droder1 said:
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
zythos is a blend and was only introduced a few years ago
whitehause
Well-Known Member
With what it would cost to ship it, your better off finding someone that will send you can of Heady and growing the Conan yourself. Shipping will be about the same, and for a few extra bucks for the Heady, you can actually try what wer're trying to clone.
Problem is, there aren't many people willing to give up a can or two of heady
I want some too!
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I will trade Conan for ECY01 or 02. PM me if interested.
Problem is, there aren't many people willing to give up a can or two of heady
plenty of people trading it on beeradvocate. offer up a good deal and you can get it no problem. its canned twice a week, its not a one a year deal so its readily traded. i've gotten 12 cans this way in 2 trades, didn't take too much effort. it's a community you need to gain trust if you haven't traded before, but its easy to do (ie. first time traders ship their beer first).
sure beats finding a rare soul who gives it away for free
I have 6 jars of ~110 billion cells each. I offered up the extras to my homebrew club.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Wow, you might need to work on your sales pitch man. 2 out of 6? Maybe they're not IPA fans.
Yeah, I thought that was weird. The 2 people responded right away so I was thinking I'd get quite a few, but nope. Oh well, more for me
I don't know if you guys have seen this, but I feel like a lot of the homebrewers I meet seem way more interested in home brewing than commercial beers. So I wonder if people don't even know what Heady Topper is so that's why they don't care. I know several home brewers I talked to about Dark Lord Day had never heard of it.
I don't know if you guys have seen this, but I feel like a lot of the homebrewers I meet seem way more interested in home brewing than commercial beers. So I wonder if people don't even know what Heady Topper is so that's why they don't care. I know several home brewers I talked to about Dark Lord Day had never heard of it.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
mtnagel said:Yeah, I thought that was weird. The 2 people responded right away so I was thinking I'd get quite a few, but nope. Oh well, more for me
I don't know if you guys have seen this, but I feel like a lot of the homebrewers I meet seem way more interested in home brewing than commercial beers. So I wonder if people don't even know what Heady Topper is so that's why they don't care. I know several home brewers I talked to about Dark Lord Day had never heard of it.
If anything the guys in my homebrew club are too commercially focused and don't brew enough. On any given monthly meeting 2/3 of the group are showing up with commercial beer. I try to have at least 2 homebrews, one that's the style for the month and one other.
Oh how weird. Ours is 90% home brew. People will bring the occasional cool commercial beer like flower power but not nearly as much as home brew.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
mtnagel said:
Yeah I wish I could get these guys to pull it together. I'm by far the inspiration of the group, lead most of the discussions and have to constantly correct misinformation and make myself look like a big *******. I'm thinking of moving to the Beerocrats in Santa Rosa. That's Vinnie of RR's group
the brewers at the brewpub i work at payed a visit to the alchemist brewery. i was talking with them one day and asked if they thought they used hop extract at all. one of them did, the other didnt and mentioned he could only see zythos, simcoe, and summit in their fridge of hops.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Zythos was in another beer john collaborated on, but I'm not sure if it was his doing or the other brewer. I remember about 6 months ago I posted a question on whether the sign saying 'proprietary hop blend" was true or not, and listed FF and Zythos. The timing is really tight. They were announced in the summer of 2011 at around the time John was probably starting to plan the release of Heady in cans. Then in September the flood hit and then after that, they started canning Heady.
I'm not sure the exact timing, that was the time of the hop shortage, I would not be surprised if due to budget problems, the flood, and shortages, that John used a blend.
Zythos has been described as similar to Amarillo, but different, with more pine and tropical fruit. I read a little bit about it and it's most likely high in Cascade, then some Chinook, Centennial, Simcoe, and Columbus mixed. Maybe John was brewing with most of those hops already, similar to our recipes here, and then Zythos came along and he made the switch? It's certainly a possibility. I know he dry hops with Simcoe and Columbus, that could explain why those guys saw Simcoe there, and Summit has been rumored to be in there too.
I have some extra Pearl, Summit, and Conan lying around after this last batch, I might grab some Zythos and do a little test batch next week.
I'm not sure the exact timing, that was the time of the hop shortage, I would not be surprised if due to budget problems, the flood, and shortages, that John used a blend.
Zythos has been described as similar to Amarillo, but different, with more pine and tropical fruit. I read a little bit about it and it's most likely high in Cascade, then some Chinook, Centennial, Simcoe, and Columbus mixed. Maybe John was brewing with most of those hops already, similar to our recipes here, and then Zythos came along and he made the switch? It's certainly a possibility. I know he dry hops with Simcoe and Columbus, that could explain why those guys saw Simcoe there, and Summit has been rumored to be in there too.
I have some extra Pearl, Summit, and Conan lying around after this last batch, I might grab some Zythos and do a little test batch next week.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I just racked my 4.0 to the keg and pulled off 4oz for a hydrometer reading and smell test. It's definitely way different than 2.0 and I'm not really sure how to describe it.
Incredibly complex, so much so I can't even put it to words. It's unique, I've never brewed anything that tasted or smelled like this before. I could say it's cloned but I know as soon as I get a can of heady to put next to it, some major difference will come to light.
I will say though this has all the mental signposts of the real deal. I'll be interested to see what it's like once more yeast drops out and I get it carbonated. The aroma is that dank resiny fruity citrus with a little pine and it smells a little sweet like candy.
The mouthfeel is definitely thicker with the caramalt and the torrified wheat, I'd be happy not changing that. Perhaps going down to 8 ounces on the caramalt, but not sure, have to get it carbonated. Bitterness seems about right too.
This might be very, very close, I think it is, but I can't say for sure unless I have a can of Heady next to me. I'll try to find one so I can get the final verdict in.
Incredibly complex, so much so I can't even put it to words. It's unique, I've never brewed anything that tasted or smelled like this before. I could say it's cloned but I know as soon as I get a can of heady to put next to it, some major difference will come to light.
I will say though this has all the mental signposts of the real deal. I'll be interested to see what it's like once more yeast drops out and I get it carbonated. The aroma is that dank resiny fruity citrus with a little pine and it smells a little sweet like candy.
The mouthfeel is definitely thicker with the caramalt and the torrified wheat, I'd be happy not changing that. Perhaps going down to 8 ounces on the caramalt, but not sure, have to get it carbonated. Bitterness seems about right too.
This might be very, very close, I think it is, but I can't say for sure unless I have a can of Heady next to me. I'll try to find one so I can get the final verdict in.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
Good to hear.
I just did a farmhouse IPA and made it really dank and used only some Caramalt in there, I think it's on the right track as far as flavor wise.
I'm out of yeast, and have no Heady for another go, but I've been using "parts" of the recipe to give myself some ideas and motivation.
I just did a farmhouse IPA and made it really dank and used only some Caramalt in there, I think it's on the right track as far as flavor wise.
I'm out of yeast, and have no Heady for another go, but I've been using "parts" of the recipe to give myself some ideas and motivation.
Petekiteworld
Well-Known Member
I've drank at least one can of HT from every single batch since December and I can vouch that there is large batch to batch variability.
Also, it's clearing up with significantly less sediment than it used to have.
Also, it's clearing up with significantly less sediment than it used to have.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I just heard on my blog that John says there is no more yeast sediment in the brite tanks. Not sure what that means for the future of Conan in cans, but I'd stockpile what you have.
white_sage
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I just received 4 cans that were canned on May 13th. Will soon see what is in the bottom, hoping enough to prepare a starter for a batch of your clone 4.0.
whitehause
Well-Known Member
I would think that there will be some yeast in the cans unless he started filtering.
Sounds like he's going for a slightly "prettier" beer after all. It might have something to do with the extra equiptment he has now, so he doesn't have to rush the process as much. Not the worst thing to do as long as it doesn't make a huge difference in the finished product.
Then again.....what do I know, I'm just a humble homebrewer.
Sounds like he's going for a slightly "prettier" beer after all. It might have something to do with the extra equiptment he has now, so he doesn't have to rush the process as much. Not the worst thing to do as long as it doesn't make a huge difference in the finished product.
Then again.....what do I know, I'm just a humble homebrewer.
As I mentioned previously, the batch I bought about 5 weeks ago was the first that the brewer mentioned I should notice "the clean up" and I did. However, I was able to still culture / build up the dregs without issue! That aside, Al from ECY has it and I'm sure it will eventually be released through him. So I'm hopeful that Conan will still be able to be cultured by future generations of homebrewers!
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Thomas Fawcett Caramalt confirmed.
http://69.195.124.101/~youknow7/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/DSC00828.jpg
http://69.195.124.101/~youknow7/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/DSC00828.jpg
HawksBrewer
Well-Known Member
Word. Time to pick up some pearl, caramalt and wheat and build up a proper starter from my conan stash.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
There is another photo that shows another bag but it's not Pearl (blue) and not Caramalt (purplish), it's dark black. There are also sacks of brown sugar in the photo on the left pallets I think. I used them to brew Murky Depths and that's exactly what they looked like in bulk.
Anyone know what grain that is back in the back there?
http://69.195.124.101/~youknow7/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/IMG_2985.jpg
These guys took a ton of photos that weren't published and they are making a video, possibly the only video ever shot during the actual brewing process. I saw bags of hops, but all shot from the back and couldn't see names. The video might be a different story.
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