Graff: substitute ingredients?

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bpm2000

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So I was going to try my hand at some graff, now having done a number of regular cider batches. I noticed it has some ingredients that need to be substituted, namely the malts.

Recipe:
Clean fermenting yeast I have used Nottinham and Safale-05, both are good
.5 lbs of Crystal 60L If you use cheap store brand juice, I reccomend 120L. Cheap juice tends to turn out a tad tart and this will balance it.
1 oz of torrified wheat ( head retention, I've never used more than 2oz)
4 Gallons of apple juice.
1 gallon of water
2 lbs of DME ( I use 1 lb. amber and 1 lb. light DME)
0.5 oz of you favorite hops ( right around 6% AA, I have used 18.5% AA summit hops before and it took a month after kegging for strong bitterness to blend nicely)

I'm guessing the DME can be replaced by Briess sorghum syrup, and I can always just scrap the torrified wheat as the head isn't too important. It would be nice if there was a suitable substitute though. I am unsure how I am going to sub the Crystal malt though - what can I use?

edit: from further reading, it seems the crystal malt is for body, color, and flavor/sweetness. Can I sub something like maltodextrin or a dark sugar (candi, muscovado) as a sub perhaps? I am not too concerned about nailing the original graff flavor, as I have never had it, and the sorghum is already going to change the profile quite a bit I imagine. I just want a decent substitute/approximation with the benefits of the graff over cider.
 
I think the idea was that the yeast doesn't ferment the graff quite as dry as the cider, because of the complex sugars in the malt ingredients that the yeast cannot digest, the sucrose prob wont work but the maltodextrin might.
 
Clean fermenting yeast I have used Nottinham and Safale-05, both are good
.5 lbs of Crystal 60L If you use cheap store brand juice, I reccomend 120L. Cheap juice tends to turn out a tad tart and this will balance it.
1 oz of torrified wheat ( head retention, I've never used more than 2oz)
4 Gallons of apple juice.
1 gallon of water
2 lbs of DME ( I use 1 lb. amber and 1 lb. light DME)
0.5 oz of you favorite hops ( right around 6% AA, I have used 18.5% AA summit hops before and it took a month after kegging for strong bitterness to blend nicely

Personally, if I were making graff (which someday I might, but right now, I'm thinking I might just pour 1 bottle of apfelwein and 1 bottle of beer into a big glass, drink, repeat), I'd say use the 2 lbs of Sorghum Extract, which is probably going to give you a pretty close color approximation to 1 lb amber 1 lb light, then I'd use maybe a half pound of candi sugar (as dark as I'm willing to make on my stove, and I'd probably wait until after fermentation to decide on how much maltodextrin to use, but probably only a couple ounces, if any.
 
I did something similar. I was really lazy though and just replaced all of the malt extract with 3.3 pounds of sorghum. It's what they had at my LHBS. I also put a little more hops in it because....meh, just because. It's still fermenting but It should be coming out soon. I think I am bottling next week.
 
Personally, if I were making graff (which someday I might, but right now, I'm thinking I might just pour 1 bottle of apfelwein and 1 bottle of beer into a big glass, drink, repeat), I'd say use the 2 lbs of Sorghum Extract, which is probably going to give you a pretty close color approximation to 1 lb amber 1 lb light, then I'd use maybe a half pound of candi sugar (as dark as I'm willing to make on my stove, and I'd probably wait until after fermentation to decide on how much maltodextrin to use, but probably only a couple ounces, if any.

If I were doing this, I would use 1lb Sorghum, 2lb Amber Candi Sugar and be done with it.
 
I have a batch fermenting now....Well it hit FG last week (1.010)....So now i'm just kinda letting it chill before I keg it....It was in primary for almost 3 weeks, then I put it in secondary because I needed the 6.5 gal carboy so My wife could transfer her wine to secondary.

I will probably keg it this weekend and see how it goes....
 
I'm glad bpm started this thread. I have actually been pondering this idea for a few weeks now.

Replacing sorghum for the malt extract I'm sure is where any gluten-free brewer would start, and I like the idea that DKernsher suggested of using amber candi syrup for color and sweetness. I was thinking about trying to roast some gluten free oats to replace the crystal to add some color but I don't know how much, if anything good, this would do for flavor. I know there are some other threads where guys are roasting millet or quinoa for color, but I have yet to experiment with any of this myself.

As for the torrified wheat, I'm not even entirely certain what that does, but I've read from some sources that it's almost like puffed wheat. I wonder what running some millet or quinoa through an air popcorn popper would do to the color or flavor addition to the beer or graff? I think most air poppers can only handle about a half cup of corn kernels, so that idea might not be practical for the quantity of millet or quinoa that would be necessary for a 5 gallon batch.

Aw, heck... I'm just a novice brewer anyway. Maybe someone with more experience than I have can weigh in on whether or not this would be worth trying?

I really want to try to make a gluten-free graff eventually, maybe even try to make 4 or 5 small (1gal) batches with slight variations, but I probably won't be able to devote the time to this for another month or two. Oh, and I could probably make a 1-gal batch of regular graff by Brandon O's recipe at the same time to compare.

Good luck with whatever you try, and I'll try to remember to post any results I find when I get around to trying this...

:mug:
 
Well Its a pretty quick cider, and I've made it twice and tinkered with he recipe. I would just start out with what you know you can subsitute, and make a batch and see how you like it, then you can tinker if you like it enough for a second batch.
The torrified wheat is purely for head retention, and wont really do too much if left out. The biggest idea behind the recipe is that most ciders above 5% or 6% develop many off flavors and smells because theres not enough complex sugars in the apple juice for the yeast to be content. Most ciders otherwise have to be aged for 5 months or so, or have something else int here to balance or overpower the off flavors, but then you can easily overpower the apple. If you Think the sorghum will keep it happy then within 4 or five weeks after pitching you can have a great cider, then just see if you want to add to it from there.
If you can rent the book The Homebrewers garden from a library, or buy it it has an amazing amount of knowledge for malting your own grains, everything from malt to sorghum to amaranth, and a huge list of traditional and non traditional herbs.
 
Would love to hear how the recent batches turned out when you crack em cruckin and sly.

Personally, if I were making graff (which someday I might, but right now, I'm thinking I might just pour 1 bottle of apfelwein and 1 bottle of beer into a big glass, drink, repeat), I'd say use the 2 lbs of Sorghum Extract, which is probably going to give you a pretty close color approximation to 1 lb amber 1 lb light, then I'd use maybe a half pound of candi sugar (as dark as I'm willing to make on my stove, and I'd probably wait until after fermentation to decide on how much maltodextrin to use, but probably only a couple ounces, if any.

I think this is the way I will approach it the first time around, thanks.
 
I just popped one of mine open. I think it's pretty good, I made a batch of cider with the same apple juice I compared them. This has quite a bit more body. It's cloudy and a bit, sour? Not really sure. I think it's the sorghum that I'm tasting. It's still good. I used 2 oz of fuggle. 1 at 60, .5 at 30, and .5 at 5. S-04 and 3.3 lb of sorghum extract. I'd make it again but I'd use much better apple juice.
 
It's only a week old so it should get better. I just had some of the cider I made with the same apple juice and it got better, no surprise I know but I'm impatient. The graff is only a week old so it should get a lot better. Hopefully.
 
Its probably just the tartness of the cheap juice, usually with the graff we'd use darker crystal malts with the cheaper juice to sort of balance that, along with the hops. 2 oz of hops it should overtake it very well though, id say at 3 weeks, even normal graff can be a bit tart at 1 week, as long as that tartness subdues quicker than in normal ciders, especially of that abv, then its a success right?
 
Sorry to resurrect and old thread, but did you ever try this OP? Would be super curious what ratio of sorghum/amber etc you used and how it all turned out!
 
Not yet. I finally got around to getting the candi sugar and sorghum syrup recently and it is in line to be my next brew. I will probably be putting it together (in the method that dorklord laid out) this weekend if a window opens up. I've been sorta busy stockpiling the graham's cider so I don't have to worry about session drinks for a while.
 
I finally found some time to give this a try... I scaled things down to one gallon. If the end product is decent, I'll try a 5 gallon batch.

Ingredients:
.6 pound sorghum syrup
1.6 ounces homemade roasted gluten free oats
3 cups water
3 grams Hersbrucker hops (2.4%AA)
apple juice to a total volume of one gallon
US-05 yeast

What I did:
Steeped the oats in 3 cups of water @ ~150*F for 30 min, strained
Boiled hops in the water for 30 min
Added sorghum syrup at flameout, let cool
Added apple juice to make total volume of one gallon
Pitch US-05

Starting sg is 1.064.

I'll try to remember to follow up and post the results. I typically do 4 week fermentation and I try to do 4 weeks in the bottle before tasting, so it'll be a while...
 
Finally got around to making this - wort is cooling as we speak.


.5 lbs dark candi sugar
4gal Treetop apple juice
1gal water
2 lbs sorghum syrup
nottingham yeast
saaz pellets
black tea
yeast nutrients

Will report once drinking.
 
I'm new around here, but I've brewed one batch of GF beer with sorghum syrup and got what tastes like hard lemonade so this recipe looks interesting but wondered what you would get if you put honey or maple syrup in instead of the sorghum so you didn't get that strong "twang" from the sorghum?
 
Bump because I'm thinking of mashing some oat malt for my next cider batch today or tomorrow. I'll post results if I man up and try it.

Anybody have any results to share? Hoping I catch the attention of jimmystewart or bpm2000!

...but wondered what you would get if you put honey or maple syrup in instead of the sorghum so you didn't get that strong "twang" from the sorghum?

Honey or maple will just ferment out like other added sugars and like the natural sugar in the juice. The sorghum has the more complex carbohydrates and nutrients that the other sugars don't have. Sorghum syrup is, at least from the yeasties' perspective, pretty much barely malt. Using simple carbohydrates (and their effects) is what graff was made to avoid.
 
Thanks for the reminder. After a month in the bottle, my attempt at gluten free graff turned out pretty decent. Now, I can't really speak for how it compares to regular graff because I've never made that, but you get the gist, right?

I didn't really 'mash' oat 'malt' for my batch. It was more like steeping specialty grains... If you want to duplicate what I called my 'LIGHTer GF roasted oats' here's how:

Start with gluten free steel cut oats. (Either Bob's Red Mill or Arrowhead Farms should both offer GF steel cut oats. Oh, and I started with 8 ounces.) Rinse them off and put them on ungreased aluminum foil spread on a cookie sheet. Use multiple sheets if you need to get it all spread out to a very thin layer. Bake at 300*F for 30 minutes, remove and stir a bit and turn them over. Bake at 350*F for 15 minutes and repeat the stirring/turning action. Bake at 400*F for 15 minutes and then stir/turn and allow to cool.

Now, the trick, and I've read this here on HBT somewhere.... You really should put the oats in a brown paper bag, roll down the top and let them sit out for at least a week before using them. It's my understanding that this allows harsh aromatics to waft off. For this reason, I usually just roast some oats every now and then when I'm beered up and bored and just let them sit and waft until I'm ready to use them. It's usually between 1 and 6 weeks.

Oh, and FWIW, I disagree on the honey fermenting out completely. I've used honey in very simple GF beers along with nothing more than sorghum syrup and a small amount very low AA hops. You can certainly tell the difference in the batch with the honey. To get the most out of honey, it should be added either very late in the boil, right at flameout, or after cooling.

I can't speak for maple because my GF GF is allergic to maple too, so I haven't tried it yet. I have found a non-maple maple syrup imitation, so I might try it someday, but I reckon that may be a year or more off.

Candi syrup would likely give a much more noticeable difference in the end result when compared to either the honey or maple syrup, methinks, but I haven't had much opportunity to play with it yet beyond Gluten Free McGee which a quick search should turn up.

Best of luck to anyone who makes use of what little I have been able to share! :mug:
 
I didn't really 'mash' oat 'malt' for my batch.

Interesting. I was going to make some GF Graff with Fawcett oat malt- all reports and indications are that gluten content should be and/or is minimal to zero; I'm still trying to get Colorado millet malt without success. I'm considering adding some oatmeal-type flavor (that's what I imagine your oats would do?) to get a little of the apple-pie effect. Did you get oat flavor to come through with your method? I've never had normal Graff either, but compared to normal cider, is it particularly malty, darker, heavier? That's not much sorghum, was it noticeable? How did the color turn out? What was your fg?

The comment about honey fermenting out was mostly about the idea behind Graff (as I understand) being to add some starch for some more complex carbohydrates and yeast nutrition... honey is still pretty much just a sugar. My first cider (just bottled) I had very little idea what I was doing, and decided honey is tasty so I put in a couple pounds. The first 2 days of primary my brew box was exploding with a delicious honey smell; after that, I never smelled or tasted any. Decided to prime with honey to see if I can lock in some of the flavor/aroma.
 
Huh. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I wasn't familiar with the Fawcett oat malt. While I'd be relatively confident that the product itself is probably gluten free, I'd be very hesitant to use it in a brew that I needed to be gluten free, especially if buying it from someplace that mainly deals in gluten containing ingredients. I seriously doubt that Northern Brewer has a set of gluten free scales that they use to weigh their oat malt. If it was my own health I might be willing to roll the dice, but in my home the whole gluten free thing is for my girlfriend and I'm not going to put her at any risk at all. Have you tried to see if it's possible to order directly from Fawcett? If they only make the oat malt, I think you'd get a much cleaner product...

I really didn't perceive any oatmeal flavor in any brew that I've used oatmeal in. I was after more of the roasty or burned flavor, which has been minimal but noticeable with the lighter roasts that I've done. I have roasted some steel cut oats much darker, but I haven't had time to play with them yet. I anticipate much more flavor to come through from them. The amount of sorghum syrup that I used was kind of small, but the end result was certainly noticeably different from the ciders that I've made. Color was a little bit darker than plain cider but not much. Final gravity was 1.013.

There's a thread somewhere on HBT where a guy did a bunch of different roasts of some GF grain... I think it might have been oats. You'd probably find it interesting / helpful. Search, search, searchy search.... Ah! Here it is:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/overly-oatmeal-stout-267260/

As far as the honey, based on what little I've done with it and what I've read about it I think it's more than just a sugar. If you're interested, hop on over to the mead sub-forum and you'll likely find more opinions on the huge differences among the varieties of honey. With beer we might hide a lot of the subtle flavors behind the stronger flavors of grain and hops, but I'm certain that they're still in there.
 
I did an 92% Fawcett Oat malt and 8% buckwheat honey pilsner. I didn't roast any grains as I wanted a fairly clean lager. Personally, I wasn't sure about the gluten content either, so I added a vial of Clarity Ferm to take care of any gluten proteins hanging around. I'm pretty sensitive and didn't experience any reaction, which is pretty amazing. I'm going to do a full post on it, but my regular beer drinking friends said "it tastes like beer!" which is a good thing
 
@muench1 you're probably right about there being some gluten content in the oat malt. i'd be interested to hear you results. the only thing is that those home gluten tests aren't very accurate at a low PPMs, which is probably the level you'd be testing. ideally, you'd send the beer to a lab. if i could find one around here for a reasonable price, i could give it a shot
 
I've also heard that those regular tests are designed to pick up the protein from wheat, and aren't very accurate at picking up the protein from barley.
 
My test is, feed it to the girlfriend and see what happens. I'm pretty convinced her condition isn't celiac but some other wheat-related sensitivity, and low levels of gluten seem to have no effect, even though we avoid gluten when possible.

On Friday, I did a mash with some fawcett oat malt(4lb), golden naked oats(1lb) and a little oatmeal then boiled to one gallon and put into primary with juice. It's gently fermenting and smells delicious. My day didn't go as planned at all, and instead of being done before company came for dinner I was stirring my wort while we were eating :eek:. I was so exhausted (and drinking plenty of beer with the company:tank:)by the time my wort had cooled that I totally failed to pick up my hygrometer 8 inches away, so my data are essentially non-existent. Oh well, we'll see what it tastes like!
 
So like I said, I was behind schedule, tired, and a bit :tank: by the time I finished my boil after mashing the various oats: 4# Thomas Fawcett malted, 1# Golden Naked Oats, 4oz oatmeal. I had a WL English Cider yeast cake from a previous cider that I'd made into a 1 gal starter (I just dumped a gallon of juice on it) a few days earlier.

After 9 days in primary, it's delicious with a FG of 1.010. Working backwards, given the measured gravity of the juice I used and the estimations for the mash, my best guess is I had an OG of approximately 1.064. It's a little gnarly looking still with plenty of solids in it, so I think that at 1.01 it's fermented dry.

The taste thus far has pronounced apple with some really nice complex flavors, but not particularly malty. Sadly this GF Graff has almost no smell; don't ask me why, because I had plenty of strong apple aroma when I made straight cider with the same exact culture of yeast.

THE GLUTEN TEST
My girlfriend isn't super-sensitive but does require a gluten free diet. She does NOT test positive for celiac using the standard blood test for antibody, and she is not extremely sensitive. She does get miserably ill if she eats anything containing wheat (bring me a beer and I'll recount the infamous Double Fudge Brownie incident!). 4 of 5 of her mother's family, and all of their descendants, have the same issue.

I mashed all the oats together, and after sparging I took the Golden Naked Oats out and made a super thick hearty stew of it, which was delicious. She had a big bowl of it and had no reaction at all. YMMV. If anybody in the Monterey or SF Bay areas would like volunteer to guinea pig this further, I'll gladly donate a bottle. To science!:mug:
 
If anybody in the Monterey or SF Bay areas would like volunteer to guinea pig this further, I'll gladly donate a bottle. To science!:mug:

I'm in Oakland, and I'd love to swap bottles. My gluten-free gruit is probably the tastiest thing I've got in bottles right now, though it's still a bit on the young side, but I'd love to trade it just to see if this oat malt sets me off or not. I'd be ECSTATIC if this proves to be safe for me, because that means I can do some real mashing with real grains!
 
% LB OZ
76% 4 0 Oats, Malted (Thomas Fawcett)
19% 1 0 Golden Naked Oats
05% 0 4 Oats, Flaked

White Labs English Cider (love the stuff!)

Mashed and boiled down to 1 gallon. Combined with 4 gallons of quality organic unfiltered pasteurized apple juice (mostly because the fancy juice costs an extra dollar but comes with a great 1 gallon jug).

? days primary
? days secondary
(Will update these when I have my notebook handy)

Bottled today and primed with honey. When I sampled it this morning it was delicious: neither sweet nor tart, with lots of apple flavor and some beer-like flavor as well. No off-flavors or odd aftertaste at all. I would say it's an overall better (though obviously different) product than any commercially available cider I know of. My girlfriend (the gluten-sensitive one) had probably 2-3 oz, thought it was delicious and had no reaction at all.

I was a little :tank: when I put it into primary and so have no OG, and didn't bother with FG this morning. I can tell you that my juice was 1.045, for all the good that does you. My original projections were OG of 1.064 and FG of 1.010, but I highly doubt I was that efficient. I'm sure this will go pretty fast and I'll do my homework properly next time.
 
I'm glad you updated with your results. There are so many promising threads that people won't follow up on. I definitely think oats are a great way to go for a clean tasting grain that'll give you a decent gravity, opposed to malting masses of gluten free grains and getting poor results. You're "cider" sounds pretty good. You mentioned how it was "not particularly malty," but there's nothing you included that'd give you malt flavor. The oats do convert like others malts somewhat but do not provide maltiness. I loved to see a picture of it too.
 
You mentioned how it was "not particularly malty," but there's nothing you included that'd give you malt flavor. The oats do convert like others malts somewhat but do not provide maltiness. I loved to see a picture of it too.

I didn't say it wasn't malty. I don't even know how I'd identify a particularly malty flavor, it's just kind of its own taste. Prior to bottling at least, it was definitely in between cider and beer. It didn't taste like any cider I've ever had, but had a noticeable beerlike flavor. I suspect some time in bottles will change the character quite a bit.

The big takeaway message for me in this is that I can use those oats without my girlfriend reacting- YMMV. I really should do some single-variable testing to see just what each contributes.
 
Finally got around to making this - wort is cooling as we speak.


.5 lbs dark candi sugar
4gal Treetop apple juice
1gal water
2 lbs sorghum syrup
nottingham yeast
saaz pellets
black tea
yeast nutrients

Will report once drinking.

Sorry for sucking at life and never updating this one everyone.

7QHIP.jpg


Here it is after 6 months. That glass was just barely carb'd, but I tend to force most of the carb I want through the tapadraft these days.

First things first, it is definitely not a weak drink! All that extra sugar and fermentables, I guess. I didn't measure gravity or any of that.

It started a little on the warm side, and that with the addition of all the sugars made it pretty gross when it was just finished. Super hot, almost medicinal, just not something I wanted to drink. I bottled three tapadrafts and a couple of 12ozers and left it alone for a while.

month 1 - undrinkable.

month 3 - starting to get better. Apple flavor started coming back on the finish, and the hotness subsiding. The medicinal taste still lingers but is quaffable at this point. Still a little "rough" around the edges.

month 6 - where we stand now. I just had this glass yesterday and was really surprised how much apple flavor there was on the back end. Made me wish I used some nicer juice rather than treetop. I can taste a little sweet/malty? note from either the sorghum or the candi sugar, and it colored up the juice nicely. It's a bit darker than the pic shows with all that sunlight lighting it up. I can't detect the hops at much or at all if I know what I'm talking about (which is highly possible I don't!) but there is a nice bitter/throaty taste component as well. It's pretty nicely balanced right now and tastes like a "beery cider" although neither really much like a cider or beer as well.

When I make this again I might hop it a little more, use better juice, and make sure the fermenting temps are under control.
 
BPM2000, that sounds really odd that it's that hot and cough-syrupy. My apple wine (made with just treetop juice and treetop concentrate) is in secondary right now, it's pretty dry and I'm pretty sure it's higher gravity than your graff, and while it was a bit raw after a lengthy primary it was still all right.

Did you control or monitor your fermentation temperature?

Also are you able to identify the saaz and black tea? I was originally going to use some black tea and other a few other things to aim for a spiced holiday apple wine, but I got lazy and just decided to leave it alone.
 
Nah I'm pretty sure its the fermenting temp too - I've done apfelwein with the same juice and had the same experience as you. Also did a cider with S05 that started out with a similar medicine taste due to high fermenting temps. IIRC I had to do this one in a different room due to space issues and paid the price.

I've come to appreciate the tannic note the black tea can give since I've been using it in the graham's english cider in so many batches (seems to help with the thin dryness of the treetop fermented out) but like I said the saaz however I am not really sure if I can tell. I feel it must be contributing to the bitter/bite to some degree but I also am aware saaz isn't the most bittering hop in the world. Just not experience enough with hops to say with much confidence there I'm afraid.
 
Anybody else have some Graff experiments/results to report?

As I sit here drinking an Angry Orchard cider (very nice BTW) and contemplate/research how to make a good, sweet, carbed cider I am thinking this might work better than a pure cider.

It helps that I have the ingredients laying around for a light GF ale including some hops that would work nicely with a Graff (fuggle, golding, etc.) a jar of BRS and a bag of RSS.

Hmmmm, might be off to the grocery store tomorrow for juice.
 
Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring here as I brewed this today:

1lb Rice syrup solids
22oz. bottle of Lundberg's brown rice syrup
3/4lb of Bries Sorghum syrup (about 3/4lb...I just poured a little out of the 3.3lb jar)
2/3oz of Fuggle hops (4.7AA)
4 gallons of cheap azz apple juice
Nottingham Yeast

The wort is cooling in the freezer right now. I'll update this when it's ready.

OG ended up 1.062
I will give it two weeks and bottle it up.
 
Bottling day update.

I tried this when I did my first hydrometer reading about a week after brewing and it was not good at all. It had some really sharp alcohol flavors and very little apple flavor. I was afraid it was going to go the way of my other failed cider attempts.

However, I bottled this last night and I have to say it was actually pretty darn good now. The apple flavor comes through nicely. It was pretty dry so I added a cup of Splenda, but that's personal preference.

I'll post back once it is carbed up with a review.

P.S. FG was 1.006 and it is VERY cloudy. If I did it again I would use a secondary.
 
Well, the Graff is carbed up nicely now and it is pretty darn good!

It still quite dry with an interesting flavor. Not too apply, but there is some apple flavor still there.
I think I might try adding some apple extract in the bottling bucket next time, but I will be brewing this again tomorrow!

In fact, I think I will try adding maybe a gallon of blueberry juice if I can find it. I think the tartness of blueberries or raspberries would go really well with this recipe.
 
I brewed essentially the thing again, but I added 1lb of crushed blueberries to the primary, and I have a 5lb bag I intend to add in secondary.

I also picked up some apple extract. I'm going to try adding that during bottling.
 
Racking this to the keg now. Very dry, kind of flavor less. Here's the color though:

ForumRunner_20121002_135247.jpg

I intend to backsweeten with this after a cold crash in the keg:

ForumRunner_20121002_135502.jpg

I didn't get much from all those blueberries except color. Next time I may just try making cider from that blueberry concentrate I bought.
 
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