Heady Topper

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theveganbrewer said:
Tell him to ask lots of questions and figure out if they use Amarillo and what temp they ferment at.

I ask about the Amarillo because I have tapped my clone attempt and it's not quite there. It's very tropical, with mango notes, but it's lacking a sweetness I normally attribute to Amarillo. I took a sample off the tap and bottled it with my bowie bottler. In the bottle was the equivalent of 0.5 ounces of hops per 5 gallons of Amarillo. I dry hopped for 24 hours and it's what I consider very close to the original.

I will brew this again this weekend, and am going to increase simcoe, decrease columbus, remove nugget, and add amarillo.
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Great info! Thanks Vegan
 
theveganbrewer said:
Was that in addition to hopshot or bittering at 60 minutes?
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All on its own. Definitely get some bittering. The hop resin has bonded with the wheat in my recipe so it has green protein chunks. (Not a heady attempt.)
 
theveganbrewer said:
Tell him to ask lots of questions and figure out if they use Amarillo and what temp they ferment at.

I ask about the Amarillo because I have tapped my clone attempt and it's not quite there. It's very tropical, with mango notes, but it's lacking a sweetness I normally attribute to Amarillo. I took a sample off the tap and bottled it with my bowie bottler. In the bottle was the equivalent of 0.5 ounces of hops per 5 gallons of Amarillo. I dry hopped for 24 hours and it's what I consider very close to the original.

I will brew this again this weekend, and am going to increase simcoe, decrease columbus, remove nugget, and add amarillo.
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Ah man, I totally would have but he isn't there anymore.
 
TNGabe said:
So how much is too much? I put 14 oz in a 6 gallon batch, split between 5 minutes and 170.
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I put about that much into a 4 gallon batch so no I don't think it's too much. Including the 60 min addition.
 
Just harvested the bottom of 2 cans last night and my starter is in the works now. I saw a "dusting" of what appeared to be yeast on the bottom this morning. How long should I let this 1st step go before I decant and do the second step up?
 
dbennett78 said:
Just harvested the bottom of 2 cans last night and my starter is in the works now. I saw a "dusting" of what appeared to be yeast on the bottom this morning. How long should I let this 1st step go before I decant and do the second step up?
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2 days or so, make sure it all drops before decanting.
 
I live less than 2 miles to the Alchemist brewery....Happened to find a 6 week old HT hiding in the fridge, next to a can that was a week old. The week old can was picked up when it literally was coming off the canning line...Usually, you want HT to settle out for 3 to 5 days.

Glass on left is the 6 week old HT....Right, 1 week old HT.....

photo.jpg
 
Different glassware totally changes the light interaction. Pretty hard to use that pic as any kind of reference
 
Umm..Ok...I've got a degree in Chemistry, but...Whatever.

The light refraction here is negligible...6 week old HT was much more of a clearer, copper...Carbonation was more evident, due to the clarity.

Both cans (1 week, 6 week) were poured simultaneously....6 week was more copper - not more 'orangy'....6 week did not have the hops/particles etc. that the 1 week had...Head was subdued on the 6 week...Aroma was subdued but still very strong and very clearly HT...Just, subdued.

YMMV
 
Oh - and I was using the wine glass to capture sediment for starting up a yeast culture of HT...
 
VTFriar said:
Umm..Ok...I've got a degree in Chemistry, but...Whatever.

The light refraction here is negligible...6 week old HT was much more of a clearer, copper...Carbonation was more evident, due to the clarity.

Both cans (1 week, 6 week) were poured simultaneously....6 week was more copper - not more 'orangy'....6 week did not have the hops/particles etc. that the 1 week had...Head was subdued on the 6 week...Aroma was subdued but still very strong and very clearly HT...Just, subdued.

YMMV
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Not trying to be a total db, but can you explain what would cause this? I don't understand why it would be more copper toned after time in the can.
 
Could be a variety of reasons....None of which I've tested.

Settling / conditioning would be a primary reason. Greater degree of oxidation - which could be tested for......I haven't compared FG's - though HT is typically right around the 1.010.

Had a couple of people over and we were simply commenting on the disparity....This wasn't scientific - simply illustrative....

Disclaimer: All HT's in the accompanying photo, as well as a significant number off-camera HT's, were sacrificed in the name of art and social adult interaction. The views expressed are solely those of the author and are not indicative of any specific political, religious or the Homebrewtalk.com party or representative.
 
Malliard reactions could cause some of the darkening, but I doubt that much over just 6 weeks time. Also, the yeast and protein settling out will "lighten" the appearance of the beer, but again, not that much. I've had many a Heady, anywhere from a week or so old to a couple months old. I don't recall any ever pouring that dark, though I have noticed that the newer cans are much hazier and chunky.
 
VTFriar said:
Umm..Ok...I've got a degree in Chemistry, but...Whatever.

The light refraction here is negligible...6 week old HT was much more of a clearer, copper...Carbonation was more evident, due to the clarity.

Both cans (1 week, 6 week) were poured simultaneously....6 week was more copper - not more 'orangy'....6 week did not have the hops/particles etc. that the 1 week had...Head was subdued on the 6 week...Aroma was subdued but still very strong and very clearly HT...Just, subdued.

YMMV
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Also not trying to be a db... but... whatever. If you wanted to run a comparison you should do so in a comparitive manner. Your chemistry degree should point you in the direction. The fatter glass is going to obscure light more, in the same fashion that beer in the primary looks darker than it does in a glass. Pour a pitch black porter in a pint and its pitch black... pour into a flute and you can pick up light browns, coppers, or ruby hues.

Just saying it may be skewed
 
Got 2 4-packs from a buddy yesterday. They're chilling in the beer fridge :). Can't wait!

After perusing this thread, I may have to try to grow up some Conan myself!
 
The hops are key, but for those of you brewing with Conan yeast, any more thoughts about it? Peachy, could be Belgian or maybe British?
 
So, here is an update on a beer I brewed 7 days ago:

I wanted to experience the effects of a single hop addition at flame out.

1 gallon batch
2row 88%
Crystal 20 12%
1.046 OG
1.010 FG
2 oz Chinook 15.6% aa. Added at 178, temp dropped to 175 after hop addition at 2:40, 168 degrees at 2:45, 165 degrees at 2:50, 160 degrees at 2:55, 156 degrees at 3:00. Crashed to 70 degrees within 10 minutes. Total time hops in wort- 30 minutes.
California yeast, over pitched- approximately 3.5 million cells/ml/deg. plato.

This is just a gravity reading that I am tasting. Very aromatic, which was expected, with smooth citrus also fresh-cut pineapple. Flavor, muddled by the yeast/green flavor, is mostly citrus- grapefruit and maybe also pineapple. Bitterness level at first seemed to be between 80 IBU-100IBU, but after sipping for a few minutes and writing this....sip, gulp, aah...Yes, it seems to maybe be a little lower, in the 60-80 IBU range.

Very good sample, being made with only one large lat hop addition, I am surprised about how much hop flavor and bitterness was attributed. This might be kind of expensive to do this on a large scale, but it would not be the first time I have added this many hops to one brew...

I will be sure to post a review of the finished product.
 
Grew some yeast from the last 1" +/- of the last can of Heady I had. Stepped it up 3 times (I think). Still have some left for next time...

Brewed our normal IIPA (87% 2 row, 4% crystal, 4% cara-pils, 5% sugar O.G. 1.067) with only minor changes so I had a base line to compare the yeast. We did cut the crystal in half. Used hop extract for bittering and finished with Columbus, Cascade and Citra. Cascade and Citra dry hop.

Had my WORST brew day ever. Tried to rush the sparge and had my first ever stuck mash. That sucked. Scooped all the grain out of the tun, mixed in some hot water and tried again. Still very slow but moving.... Missed O.G. by ~5 points. Didn't write it down but I think we hit 1.062/3.

Pitched Conan and fermented at ~61*. After a week and a half it was still at 1.020. Raised the temp a few degrees and swirled the fermenters twice a day for a few days. At 2 weeks it was at 1.012. Dry hopped and waited another 7 days (3 weeks total). Kegged Saturday (1.010), first pull last night.

Very good!:ban: While the Citra is very prominent, the peachy, Heady thing is very happening!! Hope to have a few more HT's to compare before the keg runs dry.

One thing I noticed about Conan - I'm far from a yeast expert - it was the best smelling yeast I've ever smelled when I was doing the starters. Very bready and slightly fruity. I was tempted to take a pull off the starter but never did.

Headley.jpg
 
I was sipping my clone last night and my daughter was eating a package of peaches. I borrowed the package and did a side by side with my clone and was amazed how much peach was in there that I really didn't notice before. It's sort of underneath everything in the finished product but it's definitely there.
 
Anyone have a recipe that they think is close to the real deal yet? I have the Conan on its last step up and plan on storing it until I am ready to use.
 
I think we're still at the experimentation phase. My clone came out close, I know two others here who think there clone is close as well. This might not help.

OG- 1.071
FG- 1.010
Mash at 149

85-100% Pearl
Possibly Munich, Vienna at around 5-7%
Possibly Carapils
Possibly Dextrose

60-70 IBUs of hop extract in the boil
30 IBU 5 minute addition with some combo of Simcoe/Centennial/Columbus/Cascade/Amarillo/Chinook
20-30 IBU whirlpool addition with some combo of Simcoe/Centennial/Columbus/Cascade/Amarillo/Chinook
Dry hop with 4 ounces and run through 2 ounces on the way to keg or bottle.
 
No crystal or Amarillo...
Why not sub wheat or flaked barley for carapils? Lots of pro brewers go this route as they are generally substantially less in cost than carapils.
 
For what it's worth, I actually have settled on my grain bill after much experimentation. The right sweetness is what I struggled with in side by side comparisons. Mine was either not sweet enough or too sweet. I finally settled on...

91% Pearl
2% Munich
1.5% Honey Malt
5.5% Corn sugar

I think the honey/munich malt combination gets me to the sweetness that I need without being overly sweet or honey-like. Side-by-side color comparison has been pretty dead on. No carapils or crystal. I'm still playing with the hop additions, which I feel are seriously close at this point but not perfect. I'm very happy with my grain bill and even if new evidence comes to light regarding what they actually use - I'm probably sticking with this.
 
skibb said:
No crystal or Amarillo...
Why not sub wheat or flaked barley for carapils? Lots of pro brewers go this route as they are generally substantially less in cost than carapils.
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I'm not sure Amarillo was ever excluded for a fact. Citra was, but I think Amarillo is still in the mix.
FWIW....I don't count Cara as crystal either.
 
Hmmm, never thought of honey malt. I was just at the brew shop this afternoon and was telling them I had a recipe with Munich and Pearl and needed a little more sweetness, not much, but some. They had no ideas. I was thinking I might be able to get the feeling of sweetness from a hop lineup change.
 
whitehause said:
I believe Pearl is confirmed....look at the grain bag in the lower right corner!
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Finally a grain bag! I've been looking at facebook pics for months trying to catch a glimpse of one, or some hops. This is the first I've ever seen. Were you there or did you find the pic?
 
Was just reading a new article on the Alchemist expansion, it says they will triple production in a few months. That would be 1800 cases a week up from 600.

"And, Heady Topper’s success is giving John Kimmich a chance to do something he hasn’t done since the brewpub days — experiment with new beers. The brewery will soon offer monthly 30-barell runs of different brews, which will only be sold in growlers"
 
I am interested in this clone also. Hope someone will post a definitive clone going forward.

On a side note, I hope one day that I can become good enough to clone my favorite beers, but that day has not arrived yet.
 
theveganbrewer said:
Hmmm, never thought of honey malt.
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On my first attempt using it a few tries ago, I knew I wanted some sweetness and avoided everyone's cautioning not to overdo it. I went with a half pound. THAT was overdoing it. I still have a half keg of it in my basement because it was waaay too sweet. A little goes a long way. I've only tried the new attempt as a primary taste when it wasn't quite done fermenting, so I'll know more in a few days, but just enough (1.5-2%) I think got me there fine. For my batch it was just 3.25oz for a 6 gallon batch. Quite enough. It goes to secondary tomorrow.
 
SkinnyPete said:
Someone with better eyes than me, John Kimmich tweeted out some more photos of the cannery yesterday. Let's all start zooming....

http://brewbokeh.com/place-alchemist.html
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Those are some beautiful shots. The photog has a lot of other breweries in his collection too and said he was planning to go back to the Alchemist after expansion was complete.

I found this entry from John a couple years back in his blog:

The Heady Topper has kicked and I don’t know if it will be back before it is out in cans. Its next appearance might coincide with its debut. I played around with the malt bill a lot over the last three batches. For the most part, the drinkers knew nothing of these changes, but it was very interesting. I started these experiments because of the 2010/2011 barley crop coming out of England .

Last summers weather created problems with these barleys, mostly with haze forming properties. You may have noticed the increased haze in most of my beers. This problem becomes magnified when you brew a strong and highly hopped beer. There were three test batches. One of the batches was made with Maris Otter malt. I liked it well enough, but it lacked the crispness of the Pearl malt I usually use. The next batch was made with Great Western Pale Malt. This one I hated. It had hints of the “sweet” malt flavor that I find so prominent in a lot of interpretations of this style. The third batch was brewed with my usual base malt, Pearl , but I added an enzyme to the mash which breaks up beta-glucan. This beer had the best flavor, but the enzyme had no effect on the level of haze in the finished beer.

All of this playing around answered a very big question for me in this whole canning thing. What am I going to do about the level of haze in the Heady Topper when I put it in cans? Nothing. I will not change the flavor of one of my favorite beers just to conform to some idea that a beer should be clear. You put two IPA’s down in front of me, one is hazy, and one is crystal clear. I would instinctually go for the hazy beer. I have personally witnessed GREAT beers go to hell as soon as they started to filter their beer. It changes it so much, that I would rather people get some chunky sediment in their beer, than force them to drink a lifeless shadow of what it once was; a great beer.. The beer will be hazier than I would like until we get this summers crop, in late fall. So be it. I just fell in love with the British malt under all those American hops a long time ago.
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Interesting to me because he has a few opportunities to mention other malts or use the plural form when talking about them, but only refers to one malt.
 
Protease works to break up the larger proteins which enhances the head retention of beer and reduces haze. In fully modified malts, these enzymes have done their work during the malting process.

The temperature and pH ranges for these two proteolytic enzymes overlap. The optimum pH range is 4.2 - 5.3 and both enzymes are active enough between 113 - 131°F that talking about an optimum range for each is not relevant. This optimum pH range is a bit low with respect to most mashes, but the typical mash pH of 5.3 is not out of the ballpark. There is no need to attempt to lower the mash pH to facilitate the use of these enzymes. The typical Protein Rest at 120 - 130°F is used to break up proteins which might otherwise cause chill haze and can improve the head retention. This rest should only be used when using moderately-modified malts, or when using fully modified malts with a large proportion (>25%) of unmalted grain, e.g. flaked barley, wheat, rye, or oatmeal. Using this rest in a mash consisting mainly of fully modified malts would break up the proteins responsible for body and head retention and result in a thin, watery beer. The standard time for a protein rest is 20 - 30 minutes.

The other enzymes in this temperature regime are the beta-glucanases/cytases - part of the cellulose enzyme family, and are used to break up the beta glucans in (un)malted wheat, rye, oatmeal and unmalted barley. These glucan hemi-celluloses (i.e. brambles) are responsible for the gumminess of dough and if not broken down will cause the mash to turn into a solid loaf ready for baking. Fortunately, the optimum temperature range for the beta glucanase enzyme is below that for the proteolytics. This allows the brewer to rest the mash at 98 -113°F for 20 minutes to break down the gums without affecting the proteins responsible for head retention and body. The use of this rest is only necessary for brewers incorporating a large amount (>25%) of unmalted or flaked wheat, rye or oatmeal in the mash. Sticky mashes and lauters from lesser amounts can usually be handled by increasing the temperature at lautering time (Mashout). See Chapter 17 - "Getting the Wort Out - Lautering" for further
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Seems odd Kimmich was so concerned about this when he started canning. The blog post came up when he was formulated the recipe for the first batch of cans.
 
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