ESB Feedback

Im formulating an ESB and need some feedback:

10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 80.87 %
1.00 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 8.09 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.06 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2.02 %
0.25 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 1.99 %
0.12 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 0.97 %
2.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (Dry Hop 14 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 15.3 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (15 min) Hops 7.6 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (5 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
1 Pkgs London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) Yeast-Ale

Are you trying to win a competition? If so, drop the chocolate malt and most or all of the flaked barley. Also drop most or all of the dry hops.

But if you're not trying to brew to style, then I think it sounds like a tasty beer and you should get on it and report back.

I love that yeast - you can get some really fruit English esters if you ferment in the 68-70 range. When I use it in American styles I keep it closer to 62-65.

23 IBU's is pretty low for a ESB. i'd say bitter with 2oz and dry hop with one. otherwise i like the hop bill.

i just did an ESB with .75 simpsons medium (c60) and .25 simpsons extra dark (c160) and it was too "muddy". i've done it before with just 1.25 simpsons medium and it's great. i used MO in both beers

Yeah I thought 23 IBUs is a bit low also but SWMBO is a tad over sensitive to hop bitterness. Im thinking about replacing the 120L with something else but Im not quite sure. This isnt for a competition, just personal.

Oh and may change the 2 Row to an English Maris Otter.

if it were me, i'd just ditch the 120 and see how you like it. mo is great.

honestly i think you'd have to bump up the IBUs, otherwise it's gonna be too grainy-sweet. What do you have there, a 1.055-1.060 beer? bittering hops would just be there to balance it out

Here is the final I just placed the order for:

10.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 80.87 %
1.00 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 8.09 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.06 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.02 %
0.25 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 1.99 %
0.12 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 0.97 %
2.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 30.0 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (Dry Hop 14 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (15 min) Hops 7.4 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (5 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
1 Pkgs London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) Yeast-Ale


I have 8oz of the EKG coming so I still may bump that up, regardless of what SWMBO say. Hey its my hobby not her's.

looks solid. mash temp? i'd probably go 152 to keep it on the dry side.

motobrewer said:

honestly i think you'd have to bump up the IBUs, otherwise it's gonna be too grainy-sweet.

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This is a criticism that I think is handed out too easily when people ask for advice on recipes. A beer with an OG around 1.055, 8% crystal, and IBU of 23 is not going to be a sugar bomb. Sounds like plenty of Amber ale recipes I've seen. Hell, a lot of Belgians and Bocks have only 23 IBUs but a way higher OG.

I've said it a million times, people on HBT are terrified of sweetness in their beers. It wouldn't drive me nearly as insane if people qualified their statements: "too grainy-sweet for an ESB" but people rarely write that. Plus he already said he's not necessarily trying to make something perfectly to style.

It's like there's a fear of sugar and any hint of it people believe their beers turn into syrup.

</rant>

^^^ Not to mention, the late hops additions, which not "adding IBUs" and such, will help to balance the taste of the beer. But I'm with you - malty beers can be lovely, too, and sweetness is usually only an issue if you have severe underattenuation problems.

Whoever said English bitters shouldn't be dry hopped, either? Really.

well, i did mean "for an ESB", but i think it'll be too "grainy-sweet" based on my experience with a beer i just made a few months ago. I prefer the lower end of the hop scale, so i made an 1.050 ESB with estimated 30 IBU's and....it was too sweet for me. 23IBU on a 1.057 beer seems out of balance to me.

most of what i brew is well under 30 ibu's.

GuldTuborg said:

Whoever said English bitters shouldn't be dry hopped, either? Really.

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Yeah, I don't know why I said that. When I wrote that post earlier I was thinking, "Hmmm, I can't remember if dry hopping an ESB is to style" so I went to the BJCP site and didn't see any mention of dry hops.

Not sure why I didn't remember that ESB is classically served as real ale with a dash of dry hops in the keg... how retarded am I?

Hilarious, I didn't even realize that was you above. I just saw it near the top and thought, "WTH, almost all good bitters are traditionally dry or cask hopped." If the BJCP doesn't mention dry hopping, the have some work to do to correct that oversight.

motobrewer said:

well, i did mean "for an ESB", but i think it'll be too "grainy-sweet" based on my experience with a beer i just made a few months ago. I prefer the lower end of the hop scale, so i made an 1.050 ESB with estimated 30 IBU's and....it was too sweet for me. 23IBU on a 1.057 beer seems out of balance to me.

most of what i brew is well under 30 ibu's.

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I see where you're coming from but 1.057 and 23 IBU describes a lot of beers out there - Oktoberfest, Irish Red, Munich Dunkel, and easily Amber ale and American wheat... there's probably many others too.

I guess I just want people to not apply the standards of one beer to another beer. Plus I love me some residual sugar...

ok, but we're talking about ESB's here, not german lagers. i mean they are completely different styles

the style is called "bitter" for a reason

There's also a lot more to the balance of a beer than IBUs, even if you correct for large differences between the IBU calculators. Hopslam is a pretty moderate IBU IPA (roughly 60 by Rager, I believe), but it's, well, like getting your taste buds slammed by a thousand hop cones. Go figure.

motobrewer said:

the style is called "bitter" for a reason

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Well, yes and no. "Bitters" are traditionally less bitter than the standard English pale ale. Again, go figure.

yes and no? are they less bitter than german lagers?

listen, you guys can nit-pick my comment for whatever reason i still have yet to figure out, but i made the comment based on my recent experience to bump up the bittering hop a bit, or it might turn out unbalanced.

I understand, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but there's more to the story than IBUs. Hell, IBUs don't equal IBUs, as there are different ways to calculate them. There's also no real accounting for taste. Too sweet to you might be just right for the OP. I'm not going to say what will work best for OP, but if he/she wants to try the recipe, and it looks good based off past experience, then I'm supportive.

One of the better bitters I've brewed was a low IBU beer for the style. It was also very much balanced towards the bitter side, rather than the sweet or malty.

motobrewer said:

ok, but we're talking about ESB's here, not german lagers. i mean they are completely different styles

the style is called "bitter" for a reason

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Its from my understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the style was more "bitter" compared to the typical porters that were around at the time. Just like pale ale were not pale at all, just lighter than your everyday porter.

motobrewer said:

looks solid. mash temp? i'd probably go 152 to keep it on the dry side.

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Think I may bump it up to 156 or so and get some more unfermentables.

Ralelen said:

Its from my understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the style was more "bitter" compared to the typical porters that were around at the time. Just like pale ale were not pale at all, just lighter than your everyday porter.

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That's exactly right. Older versions of all these beers were also a decent bit different than modern ones, despite the fact that the names have remained the same (in most cases).

Ralelen said:

Think I may bump it up to 156 or so and get some more unfermentables.

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Remember this yeast drops like a rock, too, and tends to attenuate a bit less than some other strains because of that. So I'd adjust mash temp a bit if you're accustomed to, say, American or some other less flocculant British yeasts.

GuldTuborg said:

I understand, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but there's more to the story than IBUs. Hell, IBUs don't equal IBUs, as there are different ways to calculate them. There's also no real accounting for taste. Too sweet to you might be just right for the OP. I'm not going to say what will work best for OP, but if he/she wants to try the recipe, and it looks good based off past experience, then I'm supportive.

One of the better bitters I've brewed was a low IBU beer for the style. It was also very much balanced towards the bitter side, rather than the sweet or malty.

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yeah, that's fine. but he came here looking for comments, so i gave him mine. he's a big brewer and i'm sure he realizes that if he bumps up the bittering addition, it will be more....bitter. it's up to him if he wants follow my advice or ignore it.


i've never used London ale, but yea generally you won't get higher attenuation levels with british yeasts. i wouldn't go much higher than 154.

wait, is that ok to say that? or are you guys sick of people giving advice about lower mash temps?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TUbRWLhsA...k/K5yohzR5ZDo/s1600/IBU-to-OG+Ratio+Chart.JPG

Thanks you all for the comments. Once its brewed, Ill send you all a bottle. Who am I kidding, I wont do that. Its all for me! Muahahahaha!

motobrewer said:

wait, is that ok to say that? or are you guys sick of people giving advice about lower mash temps?

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OK, OK, point taken. Didn't mean to harass you.