Multi-Rest Mashing

I know it's super easy to do a single infusion mash and most everyone will tell you to stick to this method (even local breweries and LHBS). BUT I can't help but notice in John Palmers, How to Brew he says that every mash can benefit from a rest at 104f (40c) ( http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter16-2.html ).
I like getting the most out of my ingredients whenever possible, but is dealing with multi-step mashing worth it?

You've answered you're own question.

It's not worth it if you want to keep it simple
It is worth it if you want to do it.

There are 100's of things you can do that could improve a brew but it's a case of diminishing returns and where you want to stop.
I make great beer with simple kit, simple methods and have short brew days, under 4 hours if required.
I could do other things and possibly get some improvement in the beer but I'll stick with the results I get.

orfy said:

...but it's a case of diminishing...

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Hmmm.....cases diminishing....I like the sound of that.....
On a more serious note though, I like the idea of resting at 104 to improve my extraction, now it's a matter of making a multi-rest mash easy and worthwhile. I've failed at doing a decoction already, but only because I didn't vorlauf and I used the kettle for the decoction which ended up schorching and making my beer taste like a piece of charcoal! Oatmeal Stout to Smokemeal Stout...my only failed beer....
I was thinking about running the mash through a coiled tube that was sitting in the sparge water to increase the temp of the mash. Sort of like a RIMS I suppose, what do you think?

Craig5_12 said:

Hmmm.....cases diminishing....I like the sound of that.....
On a more serious note though, I like the idea of resting at 104 to improve my extraction, now it's a matter of making a multi-rest mash easy and worthwhile. I've failed at doing a decoction already, but only because I didn't vorlauf and I used the kettle for the decoction which ended up schorching and making my beer taste like a piece of charcoal! Oatmeal Stout to Smokemeal Stout...my only failed beer....
I was thinking about running the mash through a coiled tube that was sitting in the sparge water to increase the temp of the mash. Sort of like a RIMS I suppose, what do you think?

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What you're describing is actually a HERMS - I use one, and I like it a lot. My AG experience is rather little at this point, but I've learned a ton, and my last brew turned out quite well! Read the "Brew Closet" link in my signature for more details on my system.

Wow Yuri, thats impressive! I like it and think I'm going to go for it. Of course, my system looks a lot different than yours, but the process will generally be the same. Because of the constant circulation of the wort do you find that your beers are clearer than they used to be? Also, how many feet of tubing do you have in the HLT for the heat exchange?
My next project was going to be a kegerator, but I'm liking this idea a little more!

HERMS is truly great. We use an immersion chiller in the HLT, and we pump the wort through that to achieve our "heated circulation". It's really cool because (if your tubing is clear enough) you can literally see the starch conversion taking place - what was once cloudy, turbid, starchy wort now begins to clear as the mash progresses. Of course, some of this is the result of particulates being filtered out as the mash passes through the grain bed, but it also shows the conversion of starches to sugars. One thing that is particularly noteworthy - we were getting efficiency ratings in the upper seventies before we implemented HERMS, but now it's not uncommon for us to achieve efficiency numbers in the upper eighties.

Craig5_12 said:

Because of the constant circulation of the wort do you find that your beers are clearer than they used to be? Also, how many feet of tubing do you have in the HLT for the heat exchange?

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Thanks man! My wort is REALLY clear when it goes to the boil kettle. I have no idea if the end product is clearer than before because this was my first (and only) all grain setup. I think I have about 15' of 3/8" tubing in the heat exchanger.

Good luck!

Woo Hoo, clearer beer and efficiency in the upper 80's. I'm all about that, I can't wait to get started. I just made a CFWC with 50' of 1/4 inch copper tubing and I really don't need that much. I think I'll cut a chunk off and use that for the coil in the HLT. Do you think 1/4 inch is too small? Or maybe I'll have more control over the temp as the heat exchange will be slower...or will it? Do you just recirculate as fast as your pump pumps? Hmmm....I guess I'll have lots of questions to come.

I don't see a problem with narrower tubing, as long as grain husks don't cause a clog. A smaller diameter will mean that more surface area of the beer comes into contact with the heat exchanger. You should just try the thinner tubing and see what happens. If it gives you trouble, you could always stop trying to circulate and get your temperature up by a boiling infusion, a thin decoction, or direct heat if that's possible for you. About the speed of your pump - any speed is good as long as you don't compact your grain bed. But you can go relatively slowly, although sparge speed would probably be too slow.

I've been contemplating this all day and trying to come up with the best method (cheapest, easiest and most efficient) and here is what I've got.
I have a 3 tier gravity based system with the addition of a pump, which at this point I only use for pushing the boiled wort through the CFWC.
I think the best way for me to convert to HERMS is to run a copper tube from my mash into my kettle (instead of my HLT) out to the pump and then back to the mash.
I benefit with using the kettle because:
1. It's not 6' off the ground so I can see what I'm doing
2. My pump is mounted right next to the kettle so I would need less plumbing
3. I can boil the water in the kettle to use for the heat exchange (which would be quicker than using the HLT with sparge water at 180)
4. I can use the boiled water to pump through the CFWC to sterilize it before the boiled wort tranfer to the fermenter.

What do you guys think?

I guess my question at this point is, how do you get the remaining wort out of the plumbing and back into the mash once the mash is complete?

1. It's not 6' off the ground so I can see what I'm doing
Agreed

2. My pump is mounted right next to the kettle so I would need less plumbing
Agreed

3. I can boil the water in the kettle to use for the heat exchange (which would be quicker than using the HLT with sparge water at 180)
Ideally, you don't want to heat any portion of your mash much above 170 - you'll lose some enzymatic action and/or potentially have some tannin extraction as the very hot recirculated portion mixes with the rest of the mash.

4. I can use the boiled water to pump through the CFWC to sterilize it before the boiled wort tranfer to the fermenter.
Sure, that works, but you'd have to sanitize (not sterilize) the CFC long before the end of the boil that way, which doesn't make much sense. I always boil a little extra water in my HLT for that purpose (and for cleaning) while my finishing hops are steeping.

I guess my question at this point is, how do you get the remaining wort out of the plumbing and back into the mash once the mash is complete?
Run some of your sparge water through the plumbing.

In the end, I recommend using the HLT for your heat exchanger.

Thanks for the reply Yuri. (BTW I just read the huge build page for you conical fermenter and you did a great job, I may have to tackle a project like that sometime)

In regards to boiling the water for the heat transfer I was hoping I could use less tubing and have a hotter and quicker circulation, thus improving the ability to step-mash. I would have to be sure that the temperature coming out of the plumbing was not more than 160 or so though. Possible?

In regards to the "sanitizing" (thanks for the correction) the CFWC it would work better for me due to my pump placement. (which is sort of a design flaw at this point) Although I've found a way around this if I don't use that water.

Thanks for the compliments!

In my experience, the mash water exiting from the heat exchanger is almost exactly the temperature of the water surrounding it. If you superheat that portion of the mash, you'll start de-activating some enzymes. Certainly, it will result in achieving faster step temperatures, but it will be at the cost of efficiency. I don't recommend it, and neither did a book I've read (Brew Chemistry??? sorry...can't remember the title, and my copy is about 6,000 miles away right now).

Fair enough on the CFC thing, I was just offering up my ideas.

Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on the project - post some pics when you finish!

I think I'll build the tubing piece for the recirculation and run a few tests with water and go from there. If I can hit the rest temperatures without exceeding 160 at anypoint I'll go for it. If that doesn't work, it's back to the drawing board, but at least I'll be one step closer to a HERMS. Thanks for all the help and I'll definitely start a gallery soon!

I always do multiple infusions, I created a spreadsheet that will automatically calculate the temps and water quantities involved. I have actually squeezed a rest at 122, 153 and the mashout at 168 into a 5 gallon beverage cooler... oh yes. Building a larger system all around this spring....

Brewpilot

Brewpilot, have you ever thought about getting Promash? It does all of this (and lots more) for you. I'm sure you spent a lot of time and effort on the spreadsheet but I purchased Promash when I went AG and it's helped a ton. It's fun and pretty easy to use too.
You planning on building a HERMS system?

No, I am sticking with the infusions for now... no HERMS. I have heard and seen PROMASH, never really explored purchasing it. Yeah, I spent days on this spreadsheet, calculates my efficiency and the final ABV based on my efficiency and the type of yeast used. I have also used Beer Recipator.com, I guess I like to build things and so I built it. I think that pretty soon I will be getting some software though, I may be brewing upward of 120 gallons a month and it would be nice to automate things more!!!

Brewpilot

Brewpilot said:

I may be brewing upward of 120 gallons a month and it would be nice to automate things more!!!
Brewpilot

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I wouldn't go shouting about it unless you're only brewing one month a year.

Well, it would be for a business... so.

Then Shout about it.

It is the only viable option to get out of my current career... Id love to get a 2-3bbl system but at this point would settle for a 20 gal system.

Brewpilot

Nice, I want to get a little side business going like that too, but the Fed's won't let you operate a brewery out of your home.......argh.
So now I brew about 120 gallons a year..... haha

This is what I am researching now... Id opt for the Digital SMART option, Digital Hot Liquor option and the Deluxe Control panel (needed for the mash tun float pump controller)

http://morebeer.com/browse.html?category_id=1133&keyword=&x=1&y=1

Brewpilot

Wow, that thing is pretty impressive! If you're going to be commercially brewing then the cost is pretty reasonable as well. How do you plan on setting up shop? Are you going to be renting a small place and operating out of it or do you have some other means?

All is in negotiation right now... this is all coming together with a friend of mine that is a gourmet chef, who has been in the restaurant industry for quite some time. He has all of the licenses and connections with persons who would help fulfill management positions, we all have the same dream, and all bring to it one skill or another that is needed. He has been drinking my brew from day one and knows my passion. I am also looking at the benefit of getting out of the airline business so that I can be a better husband and father. The system is pretty sweet, Id love to use thier 40 gallon system but it does not have the digital control options available, which would be necessary for repeatability.

Brewpilot