Wyeast Roselare - Aerate Wort Before Pitching?

I'm going to be using Wyeast's Roselare blend for brewing a flanders red this weekend. Should I aerate the wort just as I would any other ale before pitching the blend?

Wow, Just read the description on Wyeast's site. Up to 18 months aging to properly finish!!!! And it says not to propogate the culture.

It says nothing about aeration but I would expect the yeast would need oxygen. I don't know though, maybe a call to Wyeast would be the best route.

I used that yeast on a sour brown a few weeks ago and aerated as normal. As long as you are pitching Roselare as your primary, aerate it.

Have you thought about whether or not you are making a starter? The general consensus seems to be that for blends of yeasts (such as Roselare), a starter should not be made. Just additional food for thought.

dabblenben said:

I used that yeast on a sour brown a few weeks ago and aerated as normal. As long as you are pitching Roselare as your primary, aerate it.

Have you thought about whether or not you are making a starter? The general consensus seems to be that for blends of yeasts (such as Roselare), a starter should not be made. Just additional food for thought.

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Thanks. No, I do not plan on making a starter, as I have read that it would lead to an unpredictable ratio of the yeast/bacteria to be pitched. The plan is to pitch 1 smack pack into 5 gallons of 1.051 wort.

Yes aerate like normal. The Saccharomyces can use it. No starter needed for 1.051 wort.

Thanks. I can't wait to brew this one this weekend. I'm following the Flanders Red recipe in the book Wild Brews.

I also plan to use this strain soon on an oud bruin, and have read about the long aging required. Will you transfer to a secondary vessel, after primary fermentation is done, e.g. after a month or two, for aging? Or will you age in the same primary?

I don't secondary any more for my "normal" ales, but a year plus of aging would seem to warrant, so as to get it off of the main yeast cake.

I plan to rack the beer to a secondary fermenter once primary fermentation is completed. I am guessing this will be in the three to four week time-frame.

You might want to read up on secondary for this beer. The bacteria and brettanomyces yeast are supposed to be nourished by the yeast cake. If you primary in a bucket, by all means rack and try to leave a small head space so there is less exposure to oxygen. Acetobacter may give off too much acetic acid (vinegar) if there is high exposure to oxygen. If you need to rack, you may wish to add some of the trub from the primary to feed the Brett and bacteria.

cervezarara said:

You might want to read up on secondary for this beer. The bacteria and brettanomyces yeast are supposed to be nourished by the yeast cake. If you primary in a bucket, by all means rack and try to leave a small head space so there is less exposure to oxygen. Acetobacter may give off too much acetic acid (vinegar) if there is high exposure to oxygen. If you need to rack, you may wish to add some of the trub from the primary to feed the Brett and bacteria.

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Thanks. I have read that the yeast cake can provide nutrients for the bacteria & brett. I also read this article http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/11/brewing-sour-beer-at-home.html written by a guy who says he typically racks after primary is complete.

I think I may aim for a comprimise and secondary, but rack over some of the yeast cake as you suggest. I plan to primary in a 6 gallon better bottle and secondary in a 5 gallon glass carboy. The 5 gallon glass carboy will be ideal in volume and composition for minimizing oxidation in secondary.

Also, I looked at your pictures of Cantillon brewery. My wife and I were just there last month for the first time. An amazing place isn't it? I couldn't beleive it when Jean Van Roy poured our tasting at the end of the self guided tour.

Rack to secondary shortly after the main fermentation slows down. That way you will still have a lot of yeast in suspension, but will leave a lot of the trub behind. Probably be in the 10 day to 2 week time period.

It sounds like you have done excellent primary and secondary research on sours! From reading these forums, many brewers use a secondary as a bright tank to clarify their beer. I feel the long aging of a sour does away with this need. Also, a lot of brewers (myself included) complain about too little sour. It really does take a long time to develop, and it is hard to keep from fiddling with the beer for months at a time.

We were at Cantillon on my wife's birthday at the end of April- the last day of Lambic brewing. There was quite a lot of activity in the brewery, and Jean was busy going up and down to every floor. It seemed like we were always running into him. It is often hard for me to imagine these iconic figures in the Lambic world actually working so hard on every phase of their production. We did the Tour de Gueuze, and saw Frank Boon at his brewery (although he was less harried than Jean) and Armand Debelder at Drie Fonteinen.

Did you make it to Roselare while you were in Belgium? We were in Brugge for three days, but never made it to Rodenbach.

We visited & toured several other breweries as well. Drie Fonteinen and Timmerman's in Belgium and La Trappe/De Konigshoeven, De Molen, and De Dochtoer van de Korenaar in The Netherlands. We didn't make it to Rodenbach either.

While we were drinking lambic in the Lambikdroom at Drie Fonteinen, Armand came in, sat down and asked us how we were enjoying it! Then he carried on a conversation with some other visitors in the room. I agree that it was very surprising to see the relatively small size of the operations at Drie Fonteinen and Cantillon as well as the level of involvement that Jean and Armand have in the breweries. Everything from brewing, to cleaning shop, to running the cash register for tastings and merchandise.

That trip is really what inspired me to start getting serious about homebrewing sour ales.

Same here. I went to Belgium this past may and visited Cantillon as well as de Struise, Westvleteren, and St Bernardus. Amazing place.

jamest22 said:

Thanks. I have read that the yeast cake can provide nutrients for the bacteria & brett. I also read this article http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/11/brewing-sour-beer-at-home.html written by a guy who says he typically racks after primary is complete.

I think I may aim for a comprimise and secondary, but rack over some of the yeast cake as you suggest. I plan to primary in a 6 gallon better bottle and secondary in a 5 gallon glass carboy. The 5 gallon glass carboy will be ideal in volume and composition for minimizing oxidation in secondary.

Also, I looked at your pictures of Cantillon brewery. My wife and I were just there last month for the first time. An amazing place isn't it? I couldn't beleive it when Jean Van Roy poured our tasting at the end of the self guided tour.

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So essentially you guys are saying that the potential bad flavors produced by autolysis are less of a concern when brett and lacto are used for souring b/c the brett and lacto actually thrive by feeding off of the yeast cake? Which essentially means that you're using autolysis to your benefit?

I'm fairly new to the sour/wild world (one really good brett-secondary beer under my belt), so I'm trying to learn (and practice) more.

I'll just bump this, because I'm legitimately curious about this. Is it actually a good idea to leave the beer in primary on the yeast cake for the full aging process, >1 year, for a blend like Roeselare?

Regarding the original question, if I were you I'd research the effects oxygen have on lacto and pedio. Sure, the saccharomyces will benefit from the oxygen, but I'm guessing you're more interested in getting results from the bugs rather than regular yeast.

If it was me, I wouldn't aerate the wort due to some potential negative effects on the bacteria. Plus, if the saccharomyces doesn't have a super healthy fermentation and craps out, that's just more food for the bugs.

If I understand correctly, saccharomyces fermentation depletes the wort of B vitamins and amino acids. Thus, the autolysis of these yeasts in the trub actually porvides nutrients for the brettanomyces and other microorganisms. Depending on when you rack, the active yeast still in suspension will eventually drop out and autolyze over the long haul. Off flavors associated with autolysis in most beers are not a problem in long brett fermentations with Lambic and Roselare blends.

rorygilmore said:

Regarding the original question, if I were you I'd research the effects oxygen have on lacto and pedio. Sure, the saccharomyces will benefit from the oxygen, but I'm guessing you're more interested in getting results from the bugs rather than regular yeast.

If it was me, I wouldn't aerate the wort due to some potential negative effects on the bacteria. Plus, if the saccharomyces doesn't have a super healthy fermentation and craps out, that's just more food for the bugs.

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That was indeed the intent of my initial question. I know that the Sacc needs O2 but that some of the yeast and bacteria in the blend do not. So, I am pondering whether to aerate the wort or not. Looking around it seems that most homebrewers do indeed aerate the Flanders Red wort before pitching the Roselare.

Pedio is anaerobic, as such this resource, which appears credible, states that pedio should not be aerated: http://brewery.org/library/LambicFAQ.html

My own take after reading all of this though, is that if the wort is aerated, the oxygen-loving Sacch will take off faster and do its job until its max attenuation has been reached. At that point most of the oxygen in the wort will have been depleted by the Sacch fermentation, giving the anaerobic bacteria the environment they need to do their thing over a year or two. Aerating the wort should still decrease the lag time for the Sacc, which I think is still desirable in a Flanders Red as it gives less opportunity for any yeast and bacteria that aren't in the blend and made it into the wort (i.e. contaminants) to reproduce before the pH drops and alcohol is created.

I think I will plan to aerate the wort, but perhaps a little less thoroughly than I usually do with ales. I use pure 02 with a stone and usually do 30 secs to 1 min for ales. So, maybe I'll stay on the low side of that and do 30 secs of pure 02.

I will say it again, you should aerate the wort like normal. The sacc yeast needs it. The bugs will not be doing their thing before the O2 is used up. Aerate like normal than pitch the roeselare. Good to go.

Update. I brewed the Flanders Red yesterday. I smacked the pack of Roselare the night before brewday and by morning I was surprised to see it inflated to capacity.

I aerated the wort for 1 min with pure 02 and pitched the 1 pack of Roselare. Again I was surprised to see solid krausen form withing 12 hours of pitching.

jamest22, curious to know how this is coming along. I will be brewing Oud Bruin De Table tonight and will be using the Roselare Blend.

Sinalikesbeer said:

jamest22, curious to know how this is coming along. I will be brewing Oud Bruin De Table tonight and will be using the Roselare Blend.

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The beer has been in secondary about three months now. A couple weeks ago when I checked, the gravity was at 1.019. The aroma was sweet with a little touch of sherry. The flavor was slightly caramelly sweet with a decent amount of sherry flavor. There was no sourness present in the flavor at that point.

Its sitting in a closet inside at 68-69 degrees. I'm in it for the long haul, so 1 year, 18 months whatever. I'm just leaving it alone and letting it do its thing. :rockin:

jamest22 said:

The beer has been in secondary about three months now. A couple weeks ago when I checked, the gravity was at 1.019. The aroma was sweet with a little touch of sherry. The flavor was slightly caramelly sweet with a decent amount of sherry flavor. There was no sourness present in the flavor at that point.

Its sitting in a closet inside at 68-69 degrees. I'm in it for the long haul, so 1 year, 18 months whatever. I'm just leaving it alone and letting it do its thing. :rockin:

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Very awesome! The wait time is a killer on this beer, but patience is a virtue, right!? So you did decide to secondary, I have been also throwing this idea around as well, I did not want to dedicate too many carboys for sours as I use better bottles. Thinking to keep this around 70-75 to get that fruitiness out.

Let the funkiness begin

Curious if when you moved to secondary, did a pellicle form on top?

I pitched and then shook the bucket up for about a minute. About 12 hours later the airlock was going wild.

stubbornman said:

Curious if when you moved to secondary, did a pellicle form on top?

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I still don't have anything shocking. Right now there are just a couple lacto-looking bubbles sitting on top.

So how sour is it!?

update?