New 10 Gallon Herms! Pics!

Anywhere that has water problems. We can only water in the summer at night on certain days and NO car washing. Most places in Canada it's a water holding issue. It seems nuts that we have so much water but we have water restrictions in the summer. Though in my case we do live in a semi-desert climate.

Arizona, California etc have many water restrictions.

ANyone have a link for this no chill thing? I thought there were many reasons to chill as quick as possible. I don't get it.

EDIT: Never mind, found a link. Meh.. to many disadvantages IMO. Maybe if you're desperate like some of the Aussies (due to drought).

Denny's Evil Concoctions said:

Anywhere that has water problems. We can only water in the summer at night on certain days and NO car washing. Most places in Canada it's a water holding issue. It seems nuts that we have so much water but we have water restrictions in the summer. Though in my case we do live in a semi-desert climate.

Arizona, California etc have many water restrictions.

ANyone have a link for this no chill thing? I thought there were many reasons to chill as quick as possible. I don't get it.

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There is a thread on here regarding the BYO Aussie Brewing Article... search that. In Australia they no chill to conserve water, they brew some award winning beers doing it as well. It is an experiment for me... brewing one of my tried and true brews, that I currently have kegged, to see what the outcome is. In Australia, no chill is the widely accepted manner to brew. I will have a detailed thread on the outcome of my experiment.

Wow, that suxor, glad I can waste (putting it back onto the ground from which it came) all the water I want. Here in the northern mid west, water is everywhere.

The Pol said:

No real worries about DMS, after a 90 minute boil, there should be no scare of DMS. Apparently this no chill thing works, people are doing it here and abroad. Should shorten the brew day, save water etc... I am down with the Aussies.

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Interesting. Definitely no first-hand experience here, but Jamil and John just recently did a podcast on DMS and they were pretty clear that DMS continued to be formed until the wort passed below the 170 deg "safe mark", regardless of the boil length. They had more than a few negative comments on the Aussie system.

Looking forward to hearing how this works for you...

We will find out, I am trying it on a very light beer, so if anything is amiss, it will be easy to taste.

Trying to get this into all of my build threads... here is the new HLT and MLT $3.26 sight gauges... the silicone hoses went on today too.

More neato HERMS pics...

jkarp said:

Interesting. Definitely no first-hand experience here, but Jamil and John just recently did a podcast on DMS and they were pretty clear that DMS continued to be formed until the wort passed below the 170 deg "safe mark", regardless of the boil length. They had more than a few negative comments on the Aussie system.

Looking forward to hearing how this works for you...

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The Pol said:

We will find out, I am trying it on a very light beer, so if anything is amiss, it will be easy to taste.

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Also wondering how this turned out, Pol. I've listened to this podcast a couple times now and they definitely advise against it pretty heavily.

Great thread. Congrats on your success with this setup.

Nasty... PM sent... I will get you that software thingy and give you my cell # in case you need any tech. support.

I will grab a listen to the podcast this week, hard to beleive that it is COMMON in Australia and here is completely unadviseable... there has got to be more to this.

jkarp said:

Interesting. Definitely no first-hand experience here, but Jamil and John just recently did a podcast on DMS and they were pretty clear that DMS continued to be formed until the wort passed below the 170 deg "safe mark", regardless of the boil length. They had more than a few negative comments on the Aussie system.

Looking forward to hearing how this works for you...

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Okay, I listened to the podcast, I have a few observations:

#1. It was a great 60 minute commercial for the whirlpool chiller that they sell.

#2. They focussed a lot on the importance of a 90 minute boil, which I do as a normal process.

#3. They focussed a lot on half life of the DMS precursors and why long boils were important in that respect.

#4. They focussed a lot on how DMS is a much larger issue with Pilsner malt and short boils, together... because of precursors and half life of them.

#5. Thier last waning comments on bacteria, wild yeast etc. about the Aussie method are a moot point for me IMHO... I am not storing this wort, simple "no chilling" for 24 hours then pitching a starter. Some fermentations dont really kick off for 24-72 hours, so time is not the issue.

#6. They stated that typical lightly kilned malt like 2-row does not have nearly the ammount of precursor as Pilsner malt and that even in Pilsner malt the 90 minute boil with respect to the half life of the precursors, would eliminate much of the DMS issue.

#7. VIGOROUS BOIL... not a problem for me either, I boil off at a rate of 1.5gal/hour and do that for 90 minutes. My boils are probably about as good as they get with respect to minimizing DMS.

From thier podcast I got that long (90-100 min), vigorous boil is good. DMS not nearly as bad in 2-row pale as it is in Pilsner malt. Everyone NEEDS to buy a whirlpool chiller! DMS can still be produced down to as low as 170F... but the ammount will depend on the ammount of precursor left from the type of malt and type of boil. Again, 2-row and a vigorous 90 minute boil, not leaving that much.

DMS has a very low perception threshold, so it wil be easy to find in this beer that I am making which is very lightly hopped.

But, more than anything, I NEED a whirlpool chiller. Good ad though.

Pol

Tell us how you really feel.

Regardless, we're all looking forward to hearing the results of your test. Yes, the Aussies brew beer, but as most homebrewers discovered from their last contribution to the hobby (remember brew in a bag?), it's not necessarily great beer...

jkarp said:

Tell us how you really feel.

Regardless, we're all looking forward to hearing the results of your test. Yes, the Aussies brew beer, but as most homebrewers discovered from their last contribution to the hobby (remember brew in a bag?), it's not necessarily great beer...

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I have run into brewers that tried BIAB and have converted to that completely, they no longer do a typical mash and lauter. I didnt know that most homebrewers dicovered that there was a difference in the beer. Actually, some have won comps. here in he US with them. More than I can say for anything I have personally brewed.

The Pol said:

I have run into brewers that tried BIAB and have converted to that completely, they no longer do a typical mash and lauter. I didnt know that most homebrewers dicovered that there was a difference in the beer. Actually, some have won comps. here in he US with them. More than I can say for anything I have personally brewed.

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If BiaB is all that, why did you drop so much coin on that HERMS? Why would anyone even consider a HERMS or RIMS if the Aussies are the salvation of homebrewing?

Seriously, ask around. I did BiaB. The quality (and clarity) of the wort sucks. The efficiency sucks. The high liquor to grist ratio limits the styles of beer that can be brewed. BiaB is a great way for extract brewers to get their feet wet in AG w/o a huge investment, but I know of nobody who's stuck with it after committing to AG brewing.

Yeah, I don't know why that dude kept talking about the whirlpool chiller. That's not how the show normally goes. I think he just wanted to feel like he was contributing.

While I personally will continue to chill (at least to 68-70°), I'm interested to see a side by side of your results. With that said, on my next lager, I will be chilling it to the normal 70° and leaving it overnight to 45° before aerating and pitching. Then bringing it up to 50°. So, I can see the similarities (except for that broad window of open opportunity for bacterias and the like).

Thanks for keeping in touch with the software. I'm looking forward to putting this system together. Probably not the e-keggle, but everything else.

Who said BIAB is all that? Salvation? You are kidding, right? Where is that post?

Why dont we all brew in coolers with single infusions? That is a silly question.

Bottom line is, I have seen many "rules" fall to the wayside here and elsewhere. I have never done BIAB, but know many who have. Some who have completely converted to it, because it meets thier needs. They have won comps. Many never have, that is all I am saying.

Nasty said:

Yeah, I don't know why that dude kept talking about the whirlpool chiller. That's not how the show normally goes. I think he just wanted to feel like he was contributing.

While I personally will continue to chill (at least to 68-70°), I'm interested to see a side by side of your results. With that said, on my next lager, I will be chilling it to the normal 70° and leaving it overnight to 45° before aerating and pitching. Then bringing it up to 50°. So, I can see the similarities (except for that broad window of open opportunity for bacterias and the like).

Thanks for keeping in touch with the software. I'm looking forward to putting this system together. Probably not the e-keggle, but everything else.

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I will get that to ya this weekend when I finally make it back to the states. I know... the freaking whirlpool chiller, give it a rest right?

I will probably never get to post my results from the "no chill" thing because there is nearly an entire thread saying that I will die. If I live, that is the proof of the reason why I dont just "listen" to what people say.

It is much like thin mashing... making beer really dry, because it will attenuate to a higher degree. I still have not experienced that... but, they all said so!

Yup yup... carry on.

The Pol said:

I will probably never get to post my results from the "no chill" thing because there is nearly an entire thread saying that I will die. If I live, that is the proof of the reason why I dont just "listen" to what people say.

It is much like thin mashing... making beer really dry, because it will attenuate to a higher degree. I still have not experienced that... but, they all said so!

Yup yup... carry on.

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Too funny. I've fallen victim to the "because they said so" stuff that never worked out... Especially from an LHBS guy that talked me out of rice hulls on my first hefeweizen.

Nasty said:

Too funny. I've fallen victim to the "because they said so" stuff that never worked out... Especially from an LHBS guy that talked me out of rice hulls on my first hefeweizen.

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I have never said that this IS going to work... that would be arrogant of me. But I have heard plenty of people who have never tried it or witnessed it say that it wont work. Who is arrogant?

Nasty said:

I'm looking forward to putting this system together. Probably not the e-keggle, but everything else.

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You'll get to see my system (a Pol clone) in action if we ever end up brewing together... On the Big Brew day (May 2) if not before. I am very satisfied with it, and can give you a hand with getting it built if you go there...

Thanks, Mike.

Oh, I'm going there...I just gotta get parts. Are you brewing before the Big Brew Day? I plan on brewing next weekend. I'm building my Octobomb IPA at the moment.

I just have to give major props to the Pol. I made an almost exact replica of his setup (minus the electric boil kettle) and the equipment worked like a champion. It was great having constant mash temperatures. I just kegged the first two batches I made with the setup and the hydrometer samples for both of them tasted great. I have brewed 3 other all grain batches before I had this setup and all of the beers did not taste exceptional, they were ok, but not great. The last two I made taste great so I just wanted to say THANKS to the Pol :rockin::rockin::rockin:

bighand said:

I just have to give major props to the Pol. I made an almost exact replica of his setup (minus the electric boil kettle) and the equipment worked like a champion. It was great having constant mash temperatures. I just kegged the first two batches I made with the setup and the hydrometer samples for both of them tasted great. I have brewed 3 other all grain batches before I had this setup and all of the beers did not taste exceptional, they were ok, but not great. The last two I made taste great so I just wanted to say THANKS to the Pol :rockin::rockin::rockin:

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WOW, thanks. I never knew you were building one of these. You arent the first, nor will you be the last, I hope. Great job, I am glad that it is working for you as it does me.

Sorry if this was covered before, but I only seem to be missing the A419. Where did you order that part?

I bought mine at Northen Brewer at the time, it was the best price shipped. Look around, everyone carries them.

I'm so glad I found this thread. You would think because of head pressure in the tank a lower pump would make more sense. However I have learned the hardway with QD's that is not the case.

So not to beat that dead horse but I just wanted to clarify b/c I am spending quite a bit of $$ to hard plumb my system and want to get it righ the first time.

When you say the pump is now horizontal, the input / output goes left to right respectively?

The pump housing / body is then oriented vertically? Do you think it matters if the pump housing is above or below the level of the pipe? Assuming the pipe is running level left to right.

And last question how many inches below the tank outlet is the inlet for the pump?

Go hard plumbing - don't spill that wort!!

:rockin:

msheraw said:

I'm so glad I found this thread. You would think because of head pressure in the tank a lower pump would make more sense. However I have learned the hardway with QD's that is not the case.

So not to beat that dead horse but I just wanted to clarify b/c I am spending quite a bit of $$ to hard plumb my system and want to get it righ the first time.

When you say the pump is now horizontal, the input / output goes left to right respectively?

The pump housing / body is then oriented vertically? Do you think it matters if the pump housing is above or below the level of the pipe? Assuming the pipe is running level left to right.

And last question how many inches below the tank outlet is the inlet for the pump?

Go hard plumbing - don't spill that wort!!

:rockin:

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Meh, I dont spill wort, I close a ball valve and it locks the fluid in.

Also, placing the pump lower on your rig doesnt really increase the pressure much FEEDING the pump... all you are gaining is the pressure of the fluid in the hose, which is not a lot. BUT you ARE drastically increasing the HEAD on the pump, the vertical lift... which will kill your performance. See, the head pressure FEEDING the pump doesnt affect the flow from what I have seen, but the HEAD pressure on the OUTlet does drastically. Thus, the reason I mounted my pump JUST below my MLT and HLT.

I think there is a photo of how my pump is oriented, the motor is UP, the head is DOWN and the INlet is on the left and OUTlet is on the right.

I dont think the location of the pump head itself matters at all as long as it is BELOW the level of the fluid in the source vessel. Obviously the LESS plumbing you have and the fewer turns or intersections you have, the better. The higher the head it has to pump up, the longer the plumbing and the more turns there are, the more you will destroy the eff. of the pump.

The inlet and outlet to my pump are about 6" below the outlet of my MLT and HLT.

On a side note it is funny how your pic is Billy Maize. Lately I have been hooked on that show pitchmen.

msheraw said:

On a side note it is funny how your pic is Billy Maize. Lately I have been hooked on that show pitchmen.

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Yah, I adopted it when I became a believer in OxiClean over PBW.

Pol - if you're around this weekend I am gonna drop by and pick up my stir motor!

Pol, man, I'm glad I found something to disagree with you on again. I started to think we had a bromance going on.

Let's say the pump is good for 10' max head. If you had two tanks, both level with each other at 10' off the ground and mounted the pump on the ground, the pump does not see any head at all. The weight of the water in the inlet hose equalizes to the weight of the water in the outlet hose and it nulls. Now, once you run out of water in the inlet, it's another story. I dont' know, maybe I'm wrong.

We're never talking about more than a couple feet anyway.

If I have to agree I'll say that QD's on hoses rule, hard plumbing drools.

Pol's right, its all about pressure really...a one foot change in water height (from inlet to outlet) will result in 0.433 psi change. I don't think the pump output gets compensated by the pressure coming at its inlet, so it will have a hard time pushing that water up 10' because it has 4.33 psi pushing down directly on it. It might help it a little, but I'd doubt it...

The best scenario is to keep the pump just under the outlets of the system to get the least amount of head pressure. Fluid will always flow to the lowest point, it doesn't matter if it's 6" or 60" below (unless you're relying on a siphon).

Bobby_M said:

Pol, man, I'm glad I found something to disagree with you on again. I started to think we had a bromance going on.

Let's say the pump is good for 10' max head. If you had two tanks, both level with each other at 10' off the ground and mounted the pump on the ground, the pump does not see any head at all. The weight of the water in the inlet hose equalizes to the weight of the water in the outlet hose and it nulls. Now, once you run out of water in the inlet, it's another story. I dont' know, maybe I'm wrong.

We're never talking about more than a couple feet anyway.

If I have to agree I'll say that QD's on hoses rule, hard plumbing drools.

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Hard plumbing drools if you like spilling wort everywhere. I did the QD thing and I am looking forward to hard plumbing.

But thanks for the input on the keg polishing. I am doing that too. I have about 15 projects going at once.

brrman said:

Pol - if you're around this weekend I am gonna drop by and pick up my stir motor!

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Wife will be here, I will be out on a 4 day trip.

Bobby_M said:

Pol, man, I'm glad I found something to disagree with you on again. I started to think we had a bromance going on.

Let's say the pump is good for 10' max head. If you had two tanks, both level with each other at 10' off the ground and mounted the pump on the ground, the pump does not see any head at all. The weight of the water in the inlet hose equalizes to the weight of the water in the outlet hose and it nulls. Now, once you run out of water in the inlet, it's another story. I dont' know, maybe I'm wrong.

We're never talking about more than a couple feet anyway.

If I have to agree I'll say that QD's on hoses rule, hard plumbing drools.

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Interesting Bobby... I know when my pump WAS mounted at the bottom of my rig, the flow rate was a lot less. That is all I know from actually doing it.

You would get a more accurate reading by using A PID controller and installing your temp sensor on the output of the herms coil.

Thats is what my system is using and i'm dead on.

Also it looks like you are using a 120 volt heater. How long does this take you to get to your mash in temp? I have sanke kegs and I'm using 240 volt 3300 watt element and it takes me almost 1.5 hours to get 13 gallons of sparge water to 154 from 50 degrees.

all of my Kegs are insulated as well. I recently just upgraded to a 4500 watt 240 volt element in my HLT im also using a 4500 in my boil kettle hoping it will make my ramp ups quicker.

brewjunky said:

You would get a more accurate reading by using A PID controller and installing your temp sensor on the output of the herms coil.

Thats is what my system is using and i'm dead on.

Also it looks like you are using a 120 volt heater. How long does this take you to get to your mash in temp? I have sanke kegs and I'm using 240 volt 3300 watt element and it takes me almost 1.5 hours to get 13 gallons of sparge water to 154 from 50 degrees.

all of my Kegs are insulated as well. I recently just upgraded to a 4500 watt 240 volt element in my HLT im also using a 4500 in my boil kettle hoping it will make my ramp ups quicker.

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Well I use the HLT to heat my strike water too, I placed the temp probe in the HLT because it was a little easier and it allowed me to more effectively use the HLT for things other than JUST the HERMS recirc. The JCA419 isnt as intelligent as a PID, but for a HERMS that is simply recirculating wort that is ALREADY at the correct mash temp, IMHO a PID is overkill.

My system is dead on, but it took about 30 minutes during my first brew to determine the 3F differential between the HLT temp and desired mash temp. Now I can simly set the differential in the JC controller and set my desired temp. I have a digital thermomter to verify my mash temp is correct, and it is always within .5F or so.

I brew 5 gallon brews, I can heat my water from 60F to 170F in 100 minutes. This is 9.5 gallons in the HLT, since the coil takes up exactly .5 gallons of volume in the vessel.

This being said, I have begun heating my strike water the night prior, so that it is ready to go in a matter of minutes the next morning if I am brewing early. If I am NOT brewing early, I just heat it while I am doing my other work around the house.

My kettle has a 5500W element in it and it seems to work really well for boiling. But the 1500W in the HLT works fine for me, and it was added before I ever intended to go ALL electric and have the 240VAC capability on my rig. I cover that in my other HERMS build thread.

Yeah with my system I am simply add say 6-7 gallons on a 10 gallon batch for my mash water in the mash tun then I fill my HLT that also houses my coil for herms to the top close to 12 gallons or so what ever is takes to totally cover my herms coil.

then I start my pump and set my temp to what ever I want my mash temp to be and wait.

As the HLT heats up to my desired temp the water in that mash tun is pumped thru the coil and also heats up. Since I have the temp probe on the out put of my herms coil it keeps the temp in my Mash tun at what ever I set it to.

Once I get to my desired temp and shut the pump off and dough in then turn the pump back on and leave it for 60min.

I have only been doing batch sparges because I only have one pump.

My system is a single tier system. I guess I could put the Boil kettle on the floor and use gravity to do a fly sparge but it seems like a bit of a pain.

I too use my water in the HLT for sparging. I just pump some water in so its over the grain bed a little then give it a stir and pump into the kettle I'll do this a few time until I get the desire amount of wort that I need. Im not big on calculating exact amounts to sparge with. Some guys on here do it but to me it makes no difference.

I think next on my rig im going to implement 2 pumps so I can try fly sparging.

I have 2 240 volt march pumps that I may tie into my rig. hook too switches up to my control panel and tie into the power. I got them on ebay for like 25 dollars for the 2 of them. I do not know what they were used for so I may just run some hot PBW or oyclean thru them before use.

What type of tubing are you using on your rig? I thought it looked like 1/2 braided beverage tubing. That is what I have been using but I have been having problems with kinks. I want to buy some silicone tubing one of these days.

You are looking at an old thread here.

My system got an elecrtric boil kettle upgrade, control panel, silicone hoses, sight gauges on the HLT and MLT etc. this past winter. I wasw tired of the stiff braided hoses, and I wanted to have sight gauges to accurately measure water when I make transfers from my HLT to my MLT.

I'm close to brewing in my single tier and I've not been able to find an answer to this question. It may be easier than I'm thinking about it(slow on the uptick today). So I'm using HERMS to keep temp in a three keg single tier. Once it's time to pump the 1st running into the bk and sparge, so I continue to cycle with the HERMS and for how long? Or do I just add the sparge to the current wort and continue to cycle? Orrr can I just dough in with all the water needed and cycle???? My head hurts, please help

The HERMS circulation is for the mash only up until you get your 1st runnings. After that just use the HLT water w/out circulating. This is for batch sparging.